PI Machine as backup

[adamBomb]

I currently have a CZ21 which I have been using for the past year. I like it a lot and its a fun machine. However, there are a few places I hunt where there is little to no garbage/iron and I think a deeper machine would really help me with my finds there. There are also times when I hunt when sand has been put on the beach from the tide and I think getting deeper would be helpful. Obviously the main beaches around me like wrightsville need a CZ/Excal for discrimination because they are trashy but there are other places that are not. So I was looking at the CTX3030 due its increased depth from the CZ21 but it is way out of my price range and has too many electronics for my liking. Thus I thought a PI machine would be perfect for my second machine.

Am I correct or off in my assumptions?

And which machines should I be looking at?

I do not want to spend more than $1000 and less is better obviously. The two I was looking at are the whites surf pi dual field and the tesoro sand shark. From what I have read, the whites is deeper, and that is what I care about most. Is that correct? What kind of depth would I expect? I have read the sand shark is better designed and has the lifetime warranty but doesnt get as much depth as the whites. Obviously I want a machine that gets 4-5+ inches on my CZ or its not worth it. I do not dive and only go in the water about knee-waist on the very very calm days so I am mostly a wet sand hunter. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks,

 

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[CASPER-2]

I'd go with an Excalibur instead.

Unless he can get a good one used cheap - he said he does not want to spend a lot of money
plus think he said theres not much junk - perfect for PI
usually you can find used PI Pros really cheap - sometimes DF too
places Ive taken that junks been removed the first foot - with PI - bout 9 out of 10 targets deep are keepers

 

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[adamBomb]

Get a Sand Shark! Once you get a 100 or so hours on it you can predict with good accuracy when you are digging small iron. The sounds are subtle and each machine is different but I'm accurate with my guess around 80% of the time.

I really like the price, usability, and warranty on the sand shark but from what I keep reading the whites is definitely deeper and depth is really my main goal with the PI. Otherwise the sand shark seems like an awesome machine.

 

[adamBomb]

Unless he can get a good one used cheap - he said he does not want to spend a lot of money
plus think he said theres not much junk - perfect for PI
usually you can find used PI Pros really cheap - sometimes DF too
places Ive taken that junks been removed the first foot - with PI - bout 9 out of 10 targets deep are keepers

Yea I dont think need an excal if I have a CZ21. Too close in comparison but I would pick one up for fun if it was a good price. If anyone is interested in reading about the technical similarities/differences between these two machines check out this thread: CZ owners - Salt training 101 If anyone is interested in seeing tests of these machines I found this thread here: Test Results Data photo added - Friendly Metal Detecting Forums. Essentially in summation they are extremely close and each has an advantage over the other in a certain situation but who is behind the machine matters most.

The places I would use the PI would be one of the main beaches around me that is either always cleaned up (because its the most popular vaca hotspot) or sanded in. I think a PI would be perfect to go over the spots that all of the exal/CZ/CTX guys are going over. Also, there are a few islands and less crowded areas that no one hunts because they are not the 'hotspots' (at least Ive never seen anyone) and there is no trash there. I have went over some of them and come up empty although I will find an old coin here and there and think a PI might help me in those areas.

 

[cudamark]

Get a Sand Shark! Once you get a 100 or so hours on it you can predict with good accuracy when you are digging small iron. The sounds are subtle and each machine is different but I'm accurate with my guess around 80% of the time.

But, you're still digging everything, right? How else would you know 100% what you'd be missing otherwise? So far, every single time I've checked a target that read bad on my Excalibur, it was bad, so I ignore those bad readings and just dig the iffy ones and better. Every now and then I dig some bad sounds just to verify my machine is still telling me the truth, and so far, it is. If I had to constantly dig iron sounds, I'd go crazy! Now and then to test the machine is bad enough! Good used Excaliburs can be had for less than many a new PI machine.

 

[adamBomb]

But, you're still digging everything, right? How else would you know 100% what you'd be missing otherwise? So far, every single time I've checked a target that read bad on my Excalibur, it was bad, so I ignore those bad readings and just dig the iffy ones and better. Every now and then I dig some bad sounds just to verify my machine is still telling me the truth, and so far, it is. If I had to constantly dig iron sounds, I'd go crazy! Now and then to test the machine is bad enough! Good used Excaliburs can be had for less than many a new PI machine.

The PI is going to be used in places that are already cleaned out. That way you are getting more depth than an excal/cz and dont have worry about hitting a lot of junk. From what I have read, the vlf machines have a lot of problems discriminating as you get deeper so when its deep on my CZ, I will dig regardless of what the machine tells me. I assume the excal would the be same assuming it tells you if the target is deep or not.

 

[MrMikeJackie]

It's simple, use a PI to hunt a place you've cleaned out with a regular vlf. Do not believe anyone who says a certain vlf will go just as deep as a PI. It's just not true. A Whites DF will give you a whisper so faint you can barely hear it, why? Because the ring is over 8 scoops deep with an old miller 1 1/2 gallon scoop. Witnessed by me several times.

 

[penzfan]

But, you're still digging everything, right? How else would you know 100% what you'd be missing otherwise? So far, every single time I've checked a target that read bad on my Excalibur, it was bad, so I ignore those bad readings and just dig the iffy ones and better. Every now and then I dig some bad sounds just to verify my machine is still telling me the truth, and so far, it is. If I had to constantly dig iron sounds, I'd go crazy! Now and then to test the machine is bad enough! Good used Excaliburs can be had for less than many a new PI machine.

Keep in mind, MANY foreign coins null with the Excalibur in disc mode...

 

[Crispin]

But, you're still digging everything, right? How else would you know 100% what you'd be missing otherwise? So far, every single time I've checked a target that read bad on my Excalibur, it was bad, so I ignore those bad readings and just dig the iffy ones and better. Every now and then I dig some bad sounds just to verify my machine is still telling me the truth, and so far, it is. If I had to constantly dig iron sounds, I'd go crazy! Now and then to test the machine is bad enough! Good used Excaliburs can be had for less than many a new PI machine.

I don't want to get into the detector wars. I have more then enough battles to fight. But I will answer your question. When I get to a new beach I dig everything for 20-30 minutes or so. This gives me a good idea of what the iron sounds like at that beach. (It usually is the same at most beaches.) So then I skip to only digging the good sounds. Every once in a while I dig a few bad sounds to confirm I'm guessing right. Same as a VLF machine. The shark takes a lot of learning and a lot of finesse. I also do things like scrap the top layer of sand off with my foot: if the sound disappears then small piece of iron, if the sound gets stronger then most likely deeper non-metal iron. When in the water I will do a half scoop dig and see if the sound changes. If it is louder then keep digging. If it goes away...crap iron. Big pieces of iron show up as all sorts of things on all machines. After 18 inches I usually stop digging as we all know it is most likely a can.

Disclaimer: The sand shark is the only machine I have ever had so I am by no means an expert in the differences. However, I am an expert in the shark. I do just as well as everybody I hunt with that has other machines. Now, that being said I am also younger, stronger, and dig faster. If I was 70years old that would make a big difference in what machine I got. Again, I don't want to get involved in the flame wars...just sharing what works for me.

 

[cudamark]

The PI is going to be used in places that are already cleaned out. That way you are getting more depth than an excal/cz and dont have worry about hitting a lot of junk. From what I have read, the vlf machines have a lot of problems discriminating as you get deeper so when its deep on my CZ, I will dig regardless of what the machine tells me. I assume the excal would the be same assuming it tells you if the target is deep or not.

I hunt right next to guys with PI machines and we seem to find targets at the same depth if I'm hunting in all metal. We compare targets all the time. If I get a signal, I then flip the switch over to discrimination to check it. If I get a null, it's iron,and I ignore it, if I get a good tone, I dig it. If I get no tone other than the threshold, I know it's deep, and I dig those too. If you're hunting an area that is "already cleaned out" of iron junk, it's not because of an Excalibur being used. They can ignore those sounds. If your beach has no iron sounds, it's because another PI machine has been used there. Discrimination circuits for all detectors get less accurate the deeper the target....nothing new there. Even a good target with a PI unit will give you a scratchy sound or only hit in one direction if the target's deep enough and/or at an odd angle.

 

[Crispin]

O, I forgot one more thing. I got magnets all over my scoop. So most of the small stuff disappears when the scoop picks it up...I just move on and scrap it off the magnet later.

 

[adamBomb]

Officially decided on the whites. I like that I can control the pulse delay. Now I am trying to find a used one or a good price on a new one. Watching ebay/craigslist and such but if anyone has one for sale PM me. I am not in a huge rush to get it as right now my beaches are crazy crowded and I assume my pi hunting will be in the fall/winter.

 

[SouthFLdigger]

Soil/sand is a huge factor in determining the advantage of a PI machine vs a Multi-frequency unit. In moderate to bad sand a PI will have a clear advantage over a Multi frequency unit such as a CZ-20/21, Excalibur, or BHID. In very inert soils with very low mineral content a multi frequency machine will go just as as deep as a standard PI unit, im not including boosted PI units like the ATX and TDI Pro. In my sand my Whites BHID and my CZ-20 (11-12" on a nickel wet sand) go just as deep as my Sea Hunter MK2, although the MK2 threshold is much more stable.

 

[adamBomb]

Whites DF PI Pro should be delivered today. Thanks all for the help on this. I picked up a used one off feebay but from the pics it looked great so I am hoping it is. Going to test it out at some of my local spots this weekend. I have been reading up on the settings and such so I am excited to give it a go. Hopefully the waves calm down too so that I can get in the water...and hopefully the sharks stay away. From what I saw on shark week they love biting electronics like motors and wires!

 

[metalhealth]

Have to disagree - 75% of my finds are deeper than a foot - that is why I got what I got for finds - I hunt after the guys that only go a foot down think they cleaned it all out - I started out with PI and got stuff down 2 feet at a bunch of spots others told me I would not find anything
I do the same thing even now with my cz21 in all metal - (though I believe the DF will go deeper)
I hit spots that don't get much to zero sand movement - so got to go for it as is most of the time -
I crank sensitivity and go for the slightest fluctuation
do it with my cz21 - did same with my PI
did same with my first TR land machine - not for everyone though

i also hunt where there is very little sand movement. i find it very difficult to recover the very deep targets. its hard to get any weight on the scoop when youre in neck deep water. ive considered using a weight belt. id be interested to know what kind of scoop u use and if you have any suggestions for recovering deep targets in the water when the sand starts refilling the hole.

 

[handyman007]

Whites DF PI Pro should be delivered today. Thanks all for the help on this. I picked up a used one off feebay but from the pics it looked great so I am hoping it is. Going to test it out at some of my local spots this weekend. I have been reading up on the settings and such so I am excited to give it a go. Hopefully the waves calm down too so that I can get in the water...and hopefully the sharks stay away. From what I saw on shark week they love biting electronics like motors and wires!

so, how`s the Dual Field working? Any results? I have two CZ-20, first with 12 inches coil, another-10,5))

 

[stephenscool]

Have to disagree - 75% of my finds are deeper than a foot - that is why I got what I got for finds - I hunt after the guys that only go a foot down think they cleaned it all out - I started out with PI and got stuff down 2 feet at a bunch of spots others told me I would not find anything
I do the same thing even now with my cz21 in all metal - (though I believe the DF will go deeper)
I hit spots that don't get much to zero sand movement - so got to go for it as is most of the time -
I crank sensitivity and go for the slightest fluctuation
do it with my cz21 - did same with my PI
did same with my first TR land machine - not for everyone though

It probably depends on the type of beach your hunting. A beach several miles long with several swimming "entrances" might require a lot of foot work looking for the ideal conditions. If its a roped off swimming section a deeper hitting detector might be the ticket. Wet sand up to thigh deep I use a TDI SL... deeper than that I use the DF. I have a cz21 collecting dust

 

[OBN]

i also hunt where there is very little sand movement. i find it very difficult to recover the very deep targets. its hard to get any weight on the scoop when youre in neck deep water. ive considered using a weight belt. id be interested to know what kind of scoop u use and if you have any suggestions for recovering deep targets in the water when the sand starts refilling the hole.

I have strapped a wood block (2 x 4 x 4 long) to the back of my scoop a few times knowing that I would have issues, gives you a few more inch's of kick to those targets you have to go under to scoop. On the sand refilling the hole I scoop as much and as fast as possible to the side of the hole, hoping to get the target in 4 scoops. Several times I have got other targets I never heard while doing this.

 

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