Prototype punch-plate classifier for Carolina fine/flour gold

[ncclaymaker]

Here in the slate belt of North Carolina, we have flour or fine gold galore. Our problem is extracting it from the other "stuff" before if gets off of end the sluice. Who knows, maybe this is a screwball Rube Goldberg of classifiers, but anything is worth a try... it may be better than nothing. I used a small production CNC machine to create this beveled punch plate using a scrap piece of Lexan, 10.5" X 19.0" X .220" . The cavities, all 984 of them, are created using a 0.5" X 45 degree V-bit at the top, and finished at the bottom with 0.25" X 60 degree V-bit for the bottom cut that pierces the bottom. I decided to use Lexan because it has good abrasive resistance qualities and relatively ease to machine on my CNC machine, instead of aluminium.

Since I classify everything to 3/16th or less before redirecting the suspended particulate matter to my Angus MacKirk Eureka sluice. Question is - how would you integrate a classifier or catchment device into the works to capture the fines. Hopefully, this could cause there may be enough of a "vortex" to help the fine gold particles to drop through, while letting the lighter particulate matter continue on. Forgot a small item... this will be attached to a 4" suction dredge that usually sucks up sand, magnetite, black sands and fine silt. Suggestions using miners moss, underflow, overflow, top or bottom area of the sluice or just send this idea to the trash can are cool. This guys skin is thick, but need some ideas, opinions, and satire if you wish.

The image files may help clarify the insanity of it all -

CNC router at work, boring the bottom of 984 beveled cavities -

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Cavities are aprox. 0.375" or 3/8" (9mm) in diameter X 0.22" (5mm) deep.

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41 rows X 21 columns

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Decided to work on this idea while the hurricane went elsewhere to disturb someone at the coast - Added some pics of the prototype.

The material layout is straightforward -

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The gray material is finer than miners moss, but perhaps adequate to entrap the fine particles that otherwise sail down the sluice. It's none other than Home Depot's ridge vent material. I did see a possible alternative at the following website http://www.floormatsystems.com/floor-mats/commercial-mats/vinyl-mesh-outdoor-entrance-floor-mat.html . This vinyl mesh can be had with or without the backing... an alternate "miners moss"?

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The assembly - without the rest of the sluice. I have to wait until the swollen stream that I parked it next to resides somewhat. Plan to attach this after my MacKirk Eureka to try to capture finer than "normal" particles. I've provided a 3mm gap between the plates and the "moss" to facilitate water movement and some "washing" action. Hope that it does not wash out the fines. The bottom end of the "moss" will be sealed with silicon but a gap will remain open to let the water flow out.

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My "Sly Banker" will be getting an enhanced silencer/muffler, so that you can be ten feet away and not hear the engine. Presently testing some tune-up ideas in a stream on our farm. Had to secure it high and dry during the hurricane rainfall. Water here is usually ankle deep.


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[winners58]

saw one that had a fluid bed at the end of the sluice "Goodguy" posted one, instead of screen use your idea,
maybe a pulse of water every so often from underneath like a jig.
scroll down for a photo;
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/s...-kit-my-bazooka-prosector-i-hope-works-2.html

 

[bobw53]

Hopefully, this could cause there may be enough of a "vortex" to help the fine gold particles to drop through, while letting the lighter particulate matter continue on.

Apparently you can't do that...

A vortex with a vertical axis in a sluice box was patented last year. Proceed at your own peril and fear of getting sued.

Vertical Vortex Generating Sluice/Slurry Separator - PETERSON DAVID S.

Apart from being scared for getting sued for $0, I'd be concerned that the funnels would fill up with stuff and screw it all up..

Just for the record and the thread, and the conversation. What are we considering "flour" gold? I'm almost at the point where I consider
anything I can see without magnification as a "nugget". When my Dad was just out here.. "Its a picker.. I was almost able to pick it
up with tweezers"

When you get small, mesh size is a stupid way to measure... The wires take up more room. I'm getting a Lot of pieces of gold in the 250 to 400 mesh
range. Taking into account wire size, actual hole size and the resulting size of the gold .0025" .0015". A human hair depending on color is .003 to .004 on average.
A little thinner for a natural blonde. A little thicker for Red or Auburn. I'm Red up top, Blonde on my legs. .0048 on my head. 0023 on my legs and arms.

Tiny tiny stuff.

I'm curious to see where you go with it. I hope it works... And if it doesn't work, you learn something and then make something else. And I hope you
share that too. I get almost as excited about making equipment to get gold as I do actually getting gold.

Here is my latest failure to try classifying quicker. 5/32 holes, I don't know if I didn't have enough water flow or enough angle, or the fact that it is just
NASTY material. I think it would work well on a sandier material... But the stuff we were classifying was just miserable. Just made out of a bunch of
crap I had laying around and some punch plate I had bought. I had fun making it, it surely beat working.

 

[ncclaymaker]

First of all - you cannot be sued for using an idea, only if you sell it. The plaintiff must always prove monetary damages caused by you. Otherwise, everyone making a homemade "Bazooka" box style sluice would be in court, and this web-site would be a co-defendant for facilitating. Let's see what others may come up with... even if they aren't practical.

 

[bobw53]

First of all - you cannot be sued for using an idea, only if you sell it. The plaintiff must always prove monetary damages caused by you. Otherwise, everyone making a homemade "Bazooka" box style sluice would be in court, and this web-site would be a co-defendant for facilitating. Let's see what others may come up with... even if they aren't practical.

I know, I'm just giving you crap.(stuff going on in another thread) That's why there was "rolley eyes".

I want to see how this works out. I'm not even sure exactly what you are doing, but I want to see it.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I know, I'm just giving you crap.(stuff going on in another thread) That's why there was "rolley eyes".

I want to see how this works out. I'm not even sure exactly what you are doing, but I want to see it.

Rather than making fun of a guy who did figure out how to make the vertical vortex work or pointing to an idiot's "patent" trying to rip off that working system how about engaging some of the people here who have been successful?

LP13 might have some valuable input. ncclaymaker really does know his stuff. okbasspro has been very successful with a 4" dredge and very fine gold. Maybe some of those guys could give us some real world input on why this may or may not work.

You've learned a lot really quickly bobw53 and I admire you for that. There's still stuff for both of us to learn. I have no clue how to recover very fine gold with a 4" dredge but these guys do.

Let's see where ncclaymaker is going with this. To my mind it appears he may have problems with material plugging from the decreasing aperture but I too am still interested in seeing how this works out.

Heavy Pans

 

[Anduril]

First of all - you cannot be sued for using an idea, only if you sell it. The plaintiff must always prove monetary damages caused by you. Otherwise, everyone making a homemade "Bazooka" box style sluice would be in court, and this web-site would be a co-defendant for facilitating. Let's see what others may come up with... even if they aren't practical.

Please allow me to reply here to both of you.
I have (4) utility patents, with (2) more in queue, so I am fairly well versed in the topic.

First of all, this is NOT a patent.
This is an application for a patent. Who knows if the US Patent & Trademark Office ("USPTO") will ever grant it?

Nearly all applications are rejected for failure to meet USPTO Section 101 (ineligible subject matter), 102 (anticipation), 103 (non-obviousness ) and/or 112 (indefiniteness) objections. Add to that, applications are frequently abandoned, or improperly prosecuted by the applicant resulting in no patent.

Unfortunately, my guess is this one is heading for a Section-103 rejection (i.e., invention is obvious and therefore not patentable), but more on that later...

What you are seeing online is simply the "pre-patent" publication. That's all. It is not (yet) a patent, and it might never become one.
By law, all applications are published not later than 18 months after submission to USPTO.
This pre-publication is necessary for compliance with international treaties and to resolve numerous issues too complex to get into here.
Essentially, the pre-publication puts the world on notice that the application is now "prior art", (i.e., "already invented") - regardless of whether the application ultimately grants or not.

As to what a patent is:
A patent gives the inventor the affirmative right to exclude all others from making, using, selling or importing the invention.
Please note the underlined text: "ALL OTHERS". It does not matter if it is for personal use or not. They cannot legally do it once the patent grants.

That said, this patent has not yet granted - it is still at the application stage and the inventor has no affirmative rights yet.
So, now that the application is published (and assuming the invention is adequately "enabled" - meaning that a person of ordinary skill in the art can realize the invention as disclosed), then there is nothing stopping you or anyone else from building copies - at least until the patent grants. Obviously, this potentially screws the inventor and his only practical recourse is to petition the USPTO to speed up the process (yeah, good luck there!) - or he could have chosen to keep the invention a trade secret and not seek patent protection. (Patents are a tricky mess!)

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong, but having reviewed the application, I seriously doubt this invention is patentable as claimed.
With enough diligence, maybe the inventor can narrow-up his Claims enough to squeak out a patent in a very crowded art group, but it's hard to say whether the end result would be commercially viable for him. Let's hope so!!

I hope this clears up any confusion over the patent thing.

 

[Adventure_Time]

As to what a patent is:
A patent gives the inventor the affirmative right to exclude all others from making, using, selling or importing the invention.
Please note the underlined text: "ALL OTHERS". It does not matter if it is for personal use or not. They cannot legally do it once the patent grants.

I'm sure the inventor would sell much of his product after first suing his customers.

How to make a business fail quickly, 101. The only time it is prudent to exercise patent rights is against someone with intent to manufacture. Trying to exercise patent rights against someone that clearly isn't "ripping you off" is a good way to get yourself shot.

 

[Timberdoodle]

I just looked at the patent application from David Peterson (Khrysos Vortex sluice inventor) . I found a picture of the Goldwell sluice in his submission (fig 12b) and I think (If I have read it right), Peterson is trying to claim this as one of the many potential embodiments to the design his sluice.

 

[ncclaymaker]

I'm not try to "rip off" anyone's patent. Perhaps, I should not have used the word "vortex". This punch plate with angled sides to the holes would probably produce a very limited amount of sustainable swirl or "vortex" activity anyhow. Originally, I thought of just drilling 0.125" holes into the plastic, but recognized that they would clog up in short order, whereas angled perforations, not as much. So of like a "self cleaning" cavity, or an attempt to create one. The whole idea to this plate, is to permit smaller particles to pass, but to WHAT was the question.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Sorry NCCLAYMAKER that this thread got off-topic from your classifier.
It would be interesting to see how the drilled cavities work out and whether they reduce clogging or possibly increase clogging based on how the water flows in and around them. The thickness of the hole with the bevels should make it much easier to remove jams. I think the final hole size vs the beveled depth is probably the important dimension to test with different configurations as the depth will limit the turbulence presented to the face of the material size fraction that will fall into the pocket. Good luck testing. Please let us know how it went.

 

[Anduril]

I'm not try to "rip off" anyone's patent. Perhaps, I should not have used the word "vortex". This punch plate with angled sides to the holes would probably produce a very limited amount of sustainable swirl or "vortex" activity anyhow. Originally, I thought of just drilling 0.125" holes into the plastic, but recognized that they would clog up in short order, whereas angled perforations, not as much. So of like a "self cleaning" cavity, or an attempt to create one. The whole idea to this plate, is to permit smaller particles to pass, but to WHAT was the question.

"Vortex" is as good as word as any other.
I hope I didn't imply you were ripping anyone off!

In fact, MOST new patents cover only small improvements over the prior art.
In a crowded art group like "mining equipment", practically everything has already been invented.
Advancements to the art usually come in very tiny increments.

To clarify: If someone has a valid patent for ABC, and you invent ABC+D - you can try to patent it.
You might have to pay ABC a royalty, but you can exclude everyone else from making ABC+D. (But perhaps not ABC+X.)
Make sense? (I realize you are not pursuing patent protections at this time.)

I think the trick is to keep working at it until you find something that's especially useful, novel, and non-obvious.
The degree of which usually determines commercial success.
But if this is just for your own personal use, I wouldn't worry about patent considerations at all.
Nobody is going to come after someone for a one-off personal use. I know I wouldn't.

BTW: One of my former "tinkering's" required special and advanced knowledge of plastics (and I was clueless about polymers at the time!).
I eventually went to a contract manufacturing trade show and visited with all the "plastics guys".
Let me endorse Curbell Plastics - great outfit, and they have their act together!
They publish one of the BEST guides to engineering plastics I have EVER SEEN!

Here's a link to it:
In my opinion - this should be required readings for all DIY-types into prototyping just about anything.

http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/engineering-materials-guide-curbell.pdf

 

[Goldwasher]

Hey NC...I see holes in something...pretty sure patents for that have expired...lets move on. I like your staggered holes..If you poke around in old timers backyards, and find a crashbox homemade dredge ran by the ol' feller ( I like calling some of you old timers even though it was the '80's) back in the early days when more stuff was custom fabricated. You will find homemade punch plate with random staggered holes....if your lucky enough to find real old punch plate from a long tom...often you will see random holes not in neat rows. Were they lazy and messy?.. Nope they wanted material that was still mucky to get all danced around...linger ..wash more. They weren't making a screen...good job on the random holes.

I don't know where your punchplate will be in your run, when you have punch plate the lower pressure of the under size run creates a suction and will pull material through those hole. as Clay has mention that drastic deep camber may increase that and also physically hold some pebbles kind of locking them together even... But, maybe not. Punch plates also act differently when material is falling onto them and starting flow vs. a slurry flowing across them in laminar flow like in an undercurrent. Angle and laminar flow will affect build up on them as will the characteristic of the material ran. In our area the two major bedrock types are slate and schist. both break into flat pieces..from feet by feet on down they stay flat and thin all the way down to "pebble" size.. We avoid typical rail grizzlies because even if your trying to classify to 1/2 minus certain long thin flat stuff will make it through and flat round stuff. the kind of material that likes to get held down once its flat and stay. That affects recovery because that stuff takes up recovery area it affects feed rate and clean out...we use screens and punch to classify. I have found that material passing over punch or screen works better than dropping onto it when you aren't running massive amounts of water. I try to run with the least amount of water possible to still wash push and run material, and run the recovery section as flat as possible. Punch plate does create less drag on the material than screen..

Try to test your plate both ways you may be surprised at how well it runs with that cone facing the bottom vs, being open to the material...I don't think your gonna even get a true vortex( not you intent anyways I see) until a pebble is clogging the hole....think of a dredge nozzle being slightly bent in and how that helps with plug ups since cobbles will be slightly smaller than the hose due to the smaller size of the nozzle end. Scale that down to puchplate, a slight camber on the holes top surface will help pebble lock...to much might be too much.... The right speed and recovery set, that exchanges well is best for fine gold dredging....the right set up and you will recover more of that type of gold your not SUPPOSED to be able to catch with a dredge.