Question about Walts Cave

[Doc4261]

So what is your thought thought? Is the cave across from the LDM or above, or below?? Seen it said all said ways.

 

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[markmar]

So what is your thought thought? Is the cave across from the LDM or above, or below?? Seen it said all said ways.

Doc

Is across but you can see it only if you are within 100 feet, below the spot, or from the mine which is about 150 feet afar.

 

[Doc4261]

Doc

Is across but you can see it only if you are within 100 feet, below the spot, or from the mine which is about 150 feet afar.

Thanks, where did u pick that info from, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[markmar]

Thanks, where did u pick that info from, if you don't mind me asking?

From my own research.

 

[Doc4261]

From my own research.

Why don't u think waltz just say exactly how far they get there from the cave. Like south 150 ft. Or something of that sort? There has to be a reason what is between the cave and the mine that made it hard to give directions??

 

[markmar]

Why don't u think waltz just say exactly how far they get there from the cave. Like south 150 ft. Or something of that sort? There has to be a reason what is between the cave and the mine that made it hard to give directions??

Nothing is between the cave and the mine and both places are the only points from where someone can see each other without difficulty.
The cave is about 40 feet higher than the mine, so is about one to ten ( in clock feature ) from the mine.

 

[somehiker]

markmar and Doc4261:

What clues refer to the cave and who did they come from ?
Which one, or ones, would you consider valid/accurate ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Why don't u think waltz just say exactly how far they get there from the cave. Like south 150 ft. Or something of that sort? There has to be a reason what is between the cave and the mine that made it hard to give directions??

I realize this was directed to Marius and not to speak for him but you raise a very good question. Something about the mine location makes it difficult to give verbal directions. I am reminded of what Waltz told Reiney, when he was trying to tell him how to get to the mine

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

As we know, Reiney never did find the mine, nor did Julia or Herman Petrasch or Pete Petrasch nor Dick Holmes, nor his son Brownie. If the mine could be found by the directions alone, why then did none of these people whom were closest to Waltz and talked to him (or in the case of Herman, Pete and Brownie, only separated by one degree)? Or why could not Sims Ely and Jim Bark find the mine, when they too had access to the closest contacts and best information available?

Clearly something is radically wrong with the information. Waltz seems to have been saying it when he warned Reiney, that the mine is very difficult to find even if you know where it is. There is reason to believe that information from several other unrelated lost mines have been mixed and blended into the original story until it is an impossible mine - with a huge funnel-shaped pit and no bigger than a barrel, white quartz, black quartz, rose quartz, placer grains "the size of wheat" and on it goes.

I would say that Waltz realized that he could not simply tell someone how to get to the mine by words, which is why he (allegedly) made an attempt to take Julia and Reiney to the mine himself, but unfortunately on the second night out from Phoenix Waltz became ill and had to be brought back. Otherwise it might not be a lost mine today.

 

[markmar]

markmar and Doc4261:

What clues refer to the cave and who did they come from ?
Which one, or ones, would you consider valid/accurate ?

SH

I believe is Bicknell article which tells how the mine is across the gulch from the two-room house ruin in the mouth of a cave, and no more than 200 feet away. Clues which had A Ruth in his last trip.

 

[markmar]

I realize this was directed to Marius and not to speak for him but you raise a very good question. Something about the mine location makes it difficult to give verbal directions. I am reminded of what Waltz told Reiney, when he was trying to tell him how to get to the mine

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

As we know, Reiney never did find the mine, nor did Julia or Herman Petrasch or Pete Petrasch nor Dick Holmes, nor his son Brownie. If the mine could be found by the directions alone, why then did none of these people whom were closest to Waltz and talked to him (or in the case of Herman, Pete and Brownie, only separated by one degree)? Or why could not Sims Ely and Jim Bark find the mine, when they too had access to the closest contacts and best information available?

Clearly something is radically wrong with the information. Waltz seems to have been saying it when he warned Reiney, that the mine is very difficult to find even if you know where it is. There is reason to believe that information from several other unrelated lost mines have been mixed and blended into the original story until it is an impossible mine - with a huge funnel-shaped pit and no bigger than a barrel, white quartz, black quartz, rose quartz, placer grains "the size of wheat" and on it goes.

I would say that Waltz realized that he could not simply tell someone how to get to the mine by words, which is why he (allegedly) made an attempt to take Julia and Reiney to the mine himself, but unfortunately on the second night out from Phoenix Waltz became ill and had to be brought back. Otherwise it might not be a lost mine today.

Roy , you are right. IMHO was very difficult in Waltz era to give directions and details to go to his mine/s. Then the most canyons and mountains had no names and the only points of orientation would been landmarks like springs, house ruins, different prominent peaks and some unusual rock formations. Waltz gave the best clues possible for that time, but some rock formations like human head profiles and horse head which from someone familiar with the region could be recognize after some time looking at the region's relief, were not visible for someone who was for the first time in the region. Of course these landmarks require and a specific angle and a specific hour to could be visible by a trained eye.

Unfurtunatelly, the human head profiles rock formations could be seen only from about half mile afar with the closest trail to be about one mile afar. So the clue that Waltz gave to Holmes how from the Military trail could be seen over a point of ridge is inaccurate. Waltz told it like this because he knew where it was and maybe believed was possible to be seen from that place. IMO, Waltz never took that route but told it as a easiest route for someone who would go there for the first time.

IMO, the place is so broken that Reed's father can't found the tunnel even if it was about 240 feet afar from the inclined shaft and he was aware it was there. So the house ruin in the mouth of a cave would be the only clue which could help to see/find where the mine with the tunel below is located.

 

[Doc4261]

Roy , you are right. IMHO was very difficult in Waltz era to give directions and details to go to his mine/s. Then the most canyons and mountains had no names and the only points of orientation would been landmarks like springs, house ruins, different prominent peaks and some unusual rock formations. Waltz gave the best clues possible for that time, but some rock formations like human head profiles and horse head which from someone familiar with the region could be recognize after some time looking at the region's relief, were not visible for someone who was for the first time in the region. Of course these landmarks ruquire and a specific angle and a specific hour to could be visible by a trained eye.

Unfurtunatelly, the human head profiles rock formations could be seen only from about half mile afar with the closest trail to be about one mile afar. So the clue that Waltz gave to Holmes how from the Military trail could be seen over a point of ridge is inaccurate. Waltz told it like this because he knew where it was and maybe believed was possible to be seen from that place. IMO, Waltz never took that route but told it as a easiest route for someone who would go there for the first time.

IMO, the place is so broken that Reed's father can't found the tunnel even if it was about 240 feet afar from the inclined shaft and he was aware it was there. So the house ruin in the mouth of a cave would be the only clue which could help to see/find where the mine with the tunel below is located.[/QUOTE


Why I ask. The cave is in the lesser of the 2 canyons that shape a y. Upper left of pic . But not the way people think. If I'm right about where it is. There is a drop off between where I took the pic and the believe it is in that drop it off . The dangerous waterway he spoke of supposably. But I believe it's where he stashed his **** not the 2 room cave. As u can see there is a a hemitite vein that cuts the left part in the pic also that runs down the side of the mntn. Ehh who knows. Just like pondering a good mystery.
View attachment 1746073

 

[Doc4261]

Roy , you are right. IMHO was very difficult in Waltz era to give directions and details to go to his mine/s. Then the most canyons and mountains had no names and the only points of orientation would been landmarks like springs, house ruins, different prominent peaks and some unusual rock formations. Waltz gave the best clues possible for that time, but some rock formations like human head profiles and horse head which from someone familiar with the region could be recognize after some time looking at the region's relief, were not visible for someone who was for the first time in the region. Of course these landmarks ruquire and a specific angle and a specific hour to could be visible by a trained eye.

Unfurtunatelly, the human head profiles rock formations could be seen only from about half mile afar with the closest trail to be about one mile afar. So the clue that Waltz gave to Holmes how from the Military trail could be seen over a point of ridge is inaccurate. Waltz told it like this because he knew where it was and maybe believed was possible to be seen from that place. IMO, Waltz never took that route but told it as a easiest route for someone who would go there for the first time.

IMO, the place is so broken that Reed's father can't found the tunnel even if it was about 240 feet afar from the inclined shaft and he was aware it was there. So the house ruin in the mouth of a cave would be the only clue which could help to see/find where the mine with the tunel below is located.[/QUOTE


Why I ask. The cave is in the lesser of the 2 canyons that shape a y. Upper left of pic . But not the way people think. If I'm right about where it is. There is a drop off between where I took the pic and the believe it is in that drop it off . The dangerous waterway he spoke of supposably. But I believe it's where he stashed his **** not the 2 room cave. As u can see there is a a hemitite vein that cuts the left part in the pic also that runs down the side of the mntn. Ehh who knows. Just like pondering a good mystery.
View attachment 1746073

Let me add I believe it's on the side I took the pic. Only way it fits the clue. The setting sun glistened on the ore when open. And that valley would of been the best place for the pack animals not being seen and being able to get his provisions he left hanging by the cave in a tree or how ever the story goes.

 

[markmar]

Why I ask. The cave is in the lesser of the 2 canyons that shape a y. Upper left of pic . But not the way people think. If I'm right about where it is. There is a drop off between where I took the pic and the believe it is in that drop it off . The dangerous waterway he spoke of supposably. But I believe it's where he stashed his **** not the 2 room cave. As u can see there is a a hemitite vein that cuts the left part in the pic also that runs down the side of the mntn. Ehh who knows. Just like pondering a good mystery.
View attachment 1746073

Doc, what you have to know about the " Y " shape which was referred as clue, is how the " arm " before the bifurcation is the first part of the path downward that begins from the top of the mountain and is what was said about in some clues as a difficult waterway or a chimney.
The other two " arms " of the Y which go diagonally are the margins of the small valley in which are located the mines. The cave is not located in that shape and is not located in a canyon, but up on a mountainside.
From what I have read , Waltz buried two small caches close to the shallow cave and one big in the mine with the tunnel below. Waltz took out the small caches and left the big one which is still inside the shallow mine.

 

[markmar]

Let me add I believe it's on the side I took the pic. Only way it fits the clue. The setting sun glistened on the ore when open. And that valley would of been the best place for the pack animals not being seen and being able to get his provisions he left hanging by the cave in a tree or how ever the story goes.

IMHO, the clue with the rays of the setting sun which glistened on the gold, was for the shallow mine with the tunnel below in the time when it was an outcrop and before Waltz started to dig it out. Also, this is the mine for which is attributed the clue how is located on a 12 feet ledge at the lip of a cliff.

 

[Doc4261]

IMHO, the clue with the rays of the setting sun which glistened on the gold, was for the shallow mine with the tunnel below in the time when it was an outcrop and before Waltz started to dig it out. Also, this is the mine for which is attributed the clue how is located on a 12 feet ledge at the lip of a cliff.

All I know is there is something up there. It's on 1 stone map. One Jesuit map. And has the view of one of waltz doodles if that is what u call them. There are plenty of ledges. Like a rice field..Ehh till I get back there. If I find it would that make me in the running for prospector the year?! Lol

 

[Doc4261]

One of the out crops of hemitite. At my location. View attachment 1746358

 

[markmar]

All I know is there is something up there. It's on 1 stone map. One Jesuit map. And has the view of one of waltz doodles if that is what u call them. There are plenty of ledges. Like a rice field..Ehh till I get back there. If I find it would that make me in the running for prospector the year?! Lol

I believe you will go for the " Try of the Year ".

 

[Doc4261]

I believe you will go for the " Try of the Year ".

if the ldm isn't good enough then I'll keep it quite then. Lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Why I ask. The cave is in the lesser of the 2 canyons that shape a y. Upper left of pic . But not the way people think. If I'm right about where it is. There is a drop off between where I took the pic and the believe it is in that drop it off . The dangerous waterway he spoke of supposably. But I believe it's where he stashed his **** not the 2 room cave.

May I ask what source has this statement about a 'dangerous waterway'? Thanks in advance.

 

[Doc4261]

May I ask what source has this statement about a 'dangerous waterway'? Thanks in advance.

Who knows. Lol. Guess it don't matter much. I'm going where I'm going. If I find something cool. One off the list. If it happens to be the ldm fine but something is up where I go. Then on to the other 3 . Since the squaw map is in the vicinity might as well check it out and see if I was right. Then the one by weevers needle on the east side. Then I'm done with the south and then to the north. Which will keep me busy for a long while. One step at a time. Actually think I don't have enough time before I get old. Lol