Scute or turtle toe pad and other fossils

[Age_old]

Don't fret, 'age old', argument is how we sharpen our critical thinking skills (unless the subject is religion or politics).

Let's restate the disagreement: I say "foot pad" is a misnomer, propogated by amateurs, for osteoderms which occur in the skin (not the foot) of tortoise limbs. I say that some of these osteoderms may be confused with osteoderms of glyptodonts.

You say that the term "foot pad" is generally used, and you provide three print sources. Unhappily, the three sources you provide are written by amateurs with errors you might expect from amateurs.

The best-written source you offer (Brown, FLORIDA'S FOSSILS, 1988 edition) provides only a line-drawing of one tortoise osteoderm which is labeled "leg spur of giant land tortoise."

I have a copy of Mark Renz's book here somewhere, but I didn't find it very informative so it has evaporated - disappeared - from lack of use. (I edited some chapters of one of Mark's later books, so I know his standards.)

You are equivocating by using the phrase "foot pad/leg spur" as if these were two equivalent terms. They're not. But, when it comes to illustrating your own tortoise osteoderm, you label it a "this leg spur of mine." Did you mean to say "this foot pad/leg spur of mine"?

What you say about the difference between tortoise and glyptodont osteoderms is true, as far as it goes. It is true about unworn specimens from adult animals. But, perfect adult specimens are not the common find, as with the osteoderm from the beach in this thread. Osteoderms come in all sizes and conditions. Are you aware that there is a dwarf species of glyptodont, Glyptotherium arizonae, found in Florida?

Finally, let me quote Richard Hulbert from pp. 177 of THE FOSSIL VERTEBRATES OF FLORIDA:"Loose osteoderms are present in the skin of the limbs of some cingulates [xenarthrans]. These resemble analogous elements from the limbs of the tortoise Hesperotestudo."

I understand your point now. Now I get that you simply mean that the term 'foot pad' is an inaccurate term for tortoise osteoderms. If you mean to say that they only appear on the legs of a tortoise, would 'leg pads' then be an appropriate term?

I understand that tortoise leg spurs are different from 'foot pads'. Do you agree that the term leg spur is accurate? What do you think the difference between the two is? I personally think that 'foot pads' are just leg spurs that were worn down during the tortoise's life.

I can see that a worn glyptodont tail osteoderm would resemble a tortoise osteoderm, but I do think that it is safe assume it is usually from a tortoise. Glyptodont tail scutes are generally quite uncommon, unlike those from a tortoise. I'm just saying that I would only label an osteoderm to be from a glyptodont if I was positive.

I can agree with your view on amateurs. I am an amateur, and I know I make many mistakes. Mark Renz is a textbook amateur, but his book was a tremendous help in getting me started. I have to ask: with the way you regard amateurs, are you a professional?

 

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[Harry Pristis]

...
I can agree with your view on amateurs. I am an amateur, and I know I make many mistakes. Mark Renz is a textbook amateur, but his book was a tremendous help in getting me started....

And look at you now, defending the ill-conceived terms "foot pad" and "leg pad"! Thanks a lot, Mark!