Selling valuable coins???

[piegrande]

I have a coin question, but I didn't find them. If this is not allowed, please delete the posting, thanks.

A man here in rural Mexico, kinfolk of my wife, asked me if I could sell some old coins. I went to look at them, and thought, "Oh, crud! Stolen coins."

There were a bunch of US silver dollars, oldest around 1800. I investigated and some were worth only silver. But, a couple are shown as quite valuable, $500 or more, not being an experienced grader, maybe a lot more. There were also a couple bogus trade dollars, dates that didn't exist and were allegedly made in Asia, may have some value if they are silver.

I beat around the bush, and he finally understood my concerns, and said he inherited them when his dad died quite a few years ago. He also said if I wanted, he'd sign a document saying they are his property, and that I am authorized to sell them for him, with a list of the coins, and have it "notarized" by the local judge. That way, I could present the document if anyone questions them.

Up to this point, no questions.

However, trying to find out how to sell them, I got some answers on another non-treasure forum like go to a coin show, probably a major expedition from McAllen, no thanks. If it is going to be that much hassle, I may have to tell him I don't want to bother, though the money is a lot for him.

Someone also said do not sell to any of the dealers on the net, and they seem to want an appraisal with the coins, which also means seeking an honest appraiser, also maybe a problem.

So, my first question is just that, how does one sell valuable coins? I am well aware there are some "sharp" dealers in almost every business.

The next one is selling those coins as an agent, does anyone know if there are tax forms I have to file for him as agent? I can dig in the tax stuff if I have any idea what might be involved.

Any help on any aspect will be appreciated. As an act of generosity, I want to minimize my efforts as best I can while helping out a relatively poor man who could use the money.

 

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[sasnz]

Umm.... Have you thought about selling them on Ebay?? seems to be a pretty popular place for selling coins. The trade dollars that you said were fake most definately wont be silver if they came from asia.

Sorry but i cant help you on any taxes.

why dont you list the coins here on this site, you might get a few bites. I for one would have a look at them.

Cheers

 

[l.cutler]

If there were a couple Chinese counterfeits in the group there is a good possibility that they are all counterfeit. If you try selling counterfeits as genuine you could be in a bunch of trouble!

 

[Iron Patch]

The above took the words out of my mouth. I'd be willing to bet they are all fake and has nothing to do with being stolen. But stolen is a whole lot better than fake when it comes to $$$, so I think it's possible the relative got suckered. You should grab a few of the coins and post em here. The easiest way I seen to tell the difference on the fakes I came across was to compare the dates to a picture of an authentic one. The copied one was not a match and a little sloppy in places, but I'm sure the Asians are working to fix that!

If legit, Ebay is the best place to get market value, something you won't from a dealer because they have to make a profit too.

 

[piegrande]

If there were a couple Chinese counterfeits in the group there is a good possibility that they are all counterfeit. If you try selling counterfeits as genuine you could be in a bunch of trouble!

While I hear what you are saying, I don't get it. As best as I can tell from the coin articles I read, those bad date (1797) trade dollars are not uncommon. To say that the presence of one or two means all the coins this man has are thus false, would also mean all old silver dollars are false. No, I don't think so.

Note the bad 1797 trade dollars were actually not attempts to falsify an existing coin. That generation of false trade dollars used dates when trade dollars were not even produced. So, they were brazenly making a false coin hoping to pass it as something else, not attempting to make a false coin that looked like a real coin, which sounds like what the Chinese thugs are doing.

I don't think it's that easy to make coins, especially coins that look like real coins. I did look carefully at the pictures, and could see no slop, no errors at all in the coins. They certainly aren't mint proof, but they are nice looking coins. The technology to make a decent reproduction of a coin was not within the abilities of people living in Third World Mexico 40 or 50 years ago.

However, I will add it to the list of things to be checked, so thanks for mentioning false coins may exist.

I was interrupted while typing, and just remembered something I had forgotten. A couple of the coins had corrosion, and I mentioned that probably reduced the value. He said something about acid. There aren't many reasons to put acid on a coin, and I wonder if they did not also wonder if the coins were real, and did some testing with acid to see if they were silver. A quick Google says nitric acid turns silver black, so that may have been what they did. This would indicate at least that if they are false, he doesn't know it. Nor can I imagine his late father knowingly keeping false coins for many years. However, it is possible his dad worked in the US in years past, and was ripped off by a thug. I need to ask more questions now that I know what questions to ask.

Of course, a coin can be silver and still be false, not worth hundreds of dollars.

The e-bay idea makes sense. I don't do e-bay, but family members do. But, to avoid a family member being banned for inadvertently selling false coins, as suggested here, that means I need an appraiser.

My son-in-law has lived in the McAllen area all his life. Perhaps between him and his banker brother, they can find a coin collector or appraiser who can either be trusted, or who will be honest with 'connected' clients.

The Google articles also said an experienced coin expert can tell real coins by looking, and 'pinging' them.

So, yeah, I need a real coin expert, I guess. Separate from a buyer who has a vested interest in low-balling me.

I will also see if I can take my scanner and laptop to his house and scan the coins. As you say, to see what he has would help. I am not sure how well a coin will scan. I can try first on modern coins I have.

Thanks to all. I still don't know all I need to know to take on this task for him, which he really can't do himself. But, I often find when approaching a problem, it takes a while, and I have to advance a step at a time, no instant gratification. And, I feel with your help, I have advanced another step.


Note: I just realized I had access to the computer file. Here is what I saw and found out by Internet on his coins:


1797 trade dollar. No such coin was ever made, except counterfeits in Asia. Trade dollars were made in the late 18th Century for trade in the Orient. (Correction, that is 19th Century, after an 1873 US law authorized them.)

1897 Morgan dollar. If good condition, $14, silver value.

No date, Liberty dollar. This is not a coin, but an art piece, $10 for silver.

1883 Morgan dollar. If good condition, $14.

1846 Seated Dollar. (Seated means an image of a person seated, holding a flag.) if good condition, maybe $200.

1800 Bust dollar (bust of a figure on the front). If good condition, $775.

1799 Bust dollar, if good condition, $775.

 

[Diver_Down]

Save yourself some time and scan only the last three coins in your list. There are enough "experts" here on T-Net that can ascertain grades and authenticity by providing high resolution scans. Good luck.

 

[Iron Patch]

If you are 100% sure beyond a shadow of a doubt this collection has been together for 40-50 years there's a very good chance they are fine. However, if you are not sure of that, you have to make yourself aware (well I'll do it for you) at how numerous and wide-spread the Chinese fakes are. For quite a while Ebay turned a blind eye and it was nothing to see a 100 listings a day for each type of coin you mentioned plus some.


http://www.silver-coins.org/counterfeit_dollars.html

http://home.comcast.net/~reidgold/draped_busts/chinese.html

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Chinese-Fake-Morgan-Dollars.htm

 

[l.cutler]

I didn't say the presence of counterfeits means they are all counterfeit, but that there is a good possibility if they are all from the same source. The Chinese fake Trade dollars are a fairly recent phenomenon, so i wonder about the story of inheriting them quite a few years ago. Seated, Bust and Morgan dollars are some of the most common Chinese counterfeits. They may be fine, just want you to be sure before you get involved. As stated if there is any way you can post pictures we may be able to help.

 

[piegrande]

Thanks. Things move slowly in Mexico, but I think I can get it done this week.

My first thought when I saw what he had was: stolen goods. And, I thought, I am not touching those things!

Yet, once he understood my concerns, and explained what I might need to take a chance on selling them, he indicated he had no problem signing and swearing a document before the judge, equivalent of our notarized statements, that they were his father's before him.

But, heck, yes, if someone can give me a good idea if they are false, that would be excellent.

I can also believe his father got them by legal purchase, but was swindled. Mexicans going to the US are often as vulnerable as NA going to Mexico.

 

[piegrande]

I agree absolutely if the time the 1797 trade dollars were made was very recently, that would blow his story completely out of the water. I have not yet been able to find the date they were typically made. If I understand correctly, the Chinese attempt to make false copies of real silver dollars is fairly new, but that is different, isn't it?

I hope y'all understand I believe him just enough to check things out, but not enough to put my neck on the chopping block without some serious investigation. And, this offer to examine the scan, assuming I can get a good one.

So, how good a scan? I think my machine tends to run 300 dpi, is that enough?

I have some US dollar coins a pastor picked up in Houston while going to his son's wedding, I can scan one for testing, right?

 

[AMorgan]

I know an honest appraiser here in Houston... message me if you are interested in making the trip. A question about the Bust dollars... I have been to China and to Indonesia and seen some pretty convincing fakes... What do the edges look like on the Bust dollars? Plain, Reeded or lettered?

Alan

 

[piegrande]

I don't think I want to make a long trip to Houston from McAllen. It would be driving all day, maybe even a very long day. I don't mind helping someone, but that is too much when I get nothing for my problems.

The more I think about it the more likely his dad got swindled. Those 1797 coins are indeed a bad sign.

And, of course, he may be more dishonest than I think. I will find out, I guess.

I scanned a US coin to learn how so I am ready when I visit him, wrote a posting, my software calls the files .jpeg, it rejected it, so I renamed the file .jpg, and now the software for this forum won't let me upload the posting/picture, insisting I had already posted it. But, with a wait, and refresh, the posting isn't there.

So, I will send this one and see if it opens up.

 

[piegrande]

I sent this post, with a scanned US coin. First, it rejected the posting because my software named the file as .jpeg. When I renamed it, the URL software rejected the posting saying I had already sent it. Frustrating. Waiting and refreshing, it did not show up.

I scanned this US coin so I can learn how before I go to his house. I always told the Boy Scouts to try things before going out to the woods, things like a new tent or a recipe.

My scanner is bad at 1200 dpi, so I scanned at 2400 which made a big file though I set geometry to scan only 4.5 X 4.5 cm, so I had to shrink it way back down. I am not sure it was any better than it would have been at 300 dpi.

Any ideas on changing brightness or Contrast for a better picture?

 

[AMorgan]

The scan looks fine... One thing you might consider that will often detect counterfiets is an accurate scale that can measure to the tenth of a gram. Most oftenly, counterfiets are under weight by several grams... for example, a Morgan dollar should be about 26.7 grams... I have seen counterfiets that were in the 23 gram or less range because the metal composition wasnt exactly right. Indonesian fakes I have seen stick to a magnet...

Alan

 

[piegrande]

I know an honest appraiser here in Houston... message me if you are interested in making the trip. A question about the Bust dollars... I have been to China and to Indonesia and seen some pretty convincing fakes... What do the edges look like on the Bust dollars? Plain, Reeded or lettered?

Alan

I don't remember. If I get this scanner thing good enough, I will be going to see him tomorrow or Tuesday, and will get a scan.

Maybe it is just a mood swing, but I am thinking more and more that those coins are trash. Words cannot tell you how much I appreciate the help y'all are giving me. I like these people and don't mind helping them when I can, but I sure don't want to get tangled up in anything illegal.

 

[Iron Patch]

Your scan is fine. Just post em up!

 

[goldeagle]

I would say have them graded by a reputable grader,this way everybody is covered.

 

[piegrande]

The scan looks fine... One thing you might consider that will often detect counterfiets is an accurate scale that can measure to the tenth of a gram. Most oftenly, counterfiets are under weight by several grams... for example, a Morgan dollar should be about 26.7 grams... I have seen counterfiets that were in the 23 gram or less range because the metal composition wasnt exactly right. Indonesian fakes I have seen stick to a magnet...

Alan

I don't know if my friend, the pharmacist, has a good scale or not. Here in this small village a lot of things don't exist.

Thanks a lot for tip. After I get the coins scanned, and get some opinions, I will check that out next.

Also, thanks for feedback on coin scan.

I gotta' tell y'all. I really like this board. I can just sit and read and read all the interesting things, of all sorts. This forum is obviously interesting to read. The one where people try to identify class rings is really interesting. Also, the one where people ask what something is. Neat; neat; neat!

 

[AMorgan]

Try to not think any lesser of the person until you find out the entire story... There have been many well-meaning collectors who have unintentionaly acquired fakes or they may have been given to them by relatives.... Arm yourself with knowledge and use it tactfully....

Alan

 

[piegrande]

Try to not think any lesser of the person until you find out the entire story... There have been many well-meaning collectors who have unintentionaly acquired fakes or they may have been given to them by relatives.... Arm yourself with knowledge and use it tactfully....

Alan

Absolutely. The Mexican people go to great lengths to avoid offending people. They cut me slack once they realized I mean well, and that sometimes I just don't get it in this culture.

For example, on Mexican forums, people will complain that they ask someone to do work for them, and they say, "I'll be there Thursday," and never show up. So, they accuse them of lying. Once you understand them, you realize saying he will come Thursday is his way of saying he doesn't want the job, or doesn't want to work for you. When I ask people to do something, they usually say "Let's take a look at it and see what I need to do."

Once they see the job, they tell how long it will take, and some idea of the cost. Then, I know they want the job.

No, I already told him the 1797 Trade Dollars are fakes. I am known well enough they know I am not lying to them.


Iron Patch, I will try to get there tomorrow IF I can. I am anxious to find out myself, I tell you. For his sake, I hope they are good, because several hundred dollars US is lot to these people.

Gold eagle, if the pictures look like possibly good coins, I will take them with me in October, and see if my SIL and his banker brother can find me someone who can tell a good coin from a bad one. Maybe they could be mailed to the man in Houston someone suggested.

First things first. I cannot say thanks too many times! I was really tense trying to find a solution on protecting myself.