Hal Croves
Silver Member
- #1
Thread Owner
Jon,
"The eroded forms resembling human figures on top of the mountain are responsible for its name. A Pima legend describes them as Indians who sought refuge on the mountain from a great flood and were warned not to make any sound until all the waters had receded; they disobeyed and were turned into stone. The light streak running under them is said to mark the height of the flood. The Spanish call this Sierra de Espuma (foam mountain)."
Arizona
Page 350
"Some authors and writers would lead you to believe the Spanish named Superstition Mountain. Sims Ely, author of The Lost Dutchman Mine, stated in the opening chapter of his classic book on the Lost Dutchman Mine that the Spanish named Superstition Mountain Sierra de espuma meaning a "mountain of foam." The origin of this name appears to be a forest service map drawn by L.P. Landon in 1918. Landon named a small butte southwest of Superstition Mountain Monte de Espuma."
The Superstition Mountain
Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society.
In the beginning...
Pro:
[As early as 1687, a Jesuit missionary from the province of Sonora, which, in its southern portion, bore already the impress of Spanish civilization, descending the Valley of Santa Cruz River to the Gila. Passing down the Gila to its mouth, after exploring the country, he retraced his steps, penetrated the country north of the Gila River for some distance, and ascended the Salinas or Salt River and other branches of the Gila.]
Con:
"The passage you cite is often quoted by people who believe that it means that Kino wandered around north of the Gila. However, all that it suggests is that he or some other Jesuit made it into the Salt River Valley, not the Superstitions. Even if it is true, there is no evidence that he or any other Jesuit or Franciscan missionary or Iberian explorer of any kind ever followed the Salt River past its confluence with the Verde. Most of Kino's geographic knowledge of that area came from the Pima, not from first-hand observation."
Ascend - to go up or climb
Late Middle English: from Latin ascendere, from ad- 'to' + scandere 'to climb'.
Oxford Dictionary
Pro:
"To the north and northeast I have (travelled) on different occasions more than one hundred and thirty leagues..." (Kino). Father Kino's base for his expeditions into current day Arizona was the mission Nuestra Senora de los Dolores, which is approximately 30 km north of Cucurpe, Sonora. If we convert statute leagues (1 statute league = 2.18 miles) into miles this means that Father Kino traveled "more than" 283.4 miles north of the mission... in his own words. On a current map this would put Father Kino approximatly 30-35+ miles north of the Sierra de Espuma, which would have placed him in the territory of the Moqui (Hopi).
According to Bolton, at one time in history, the territory of the Moqui included the vast area north of the Gila.
Most people reading Father Kino's work come away thinking that he stopped at the Casa Grande ruins, but he doesn't say that this was as far as he had ventured, only that he had traveled to that location,"to Casa Grande, which is a building of the ancients of Montesuma,...". The confusion may stem from Father Kino's description of Apaceria..."And I have penetrated to the borders and in plain sight of the Apacheria, which intervenes between this extensive Pimeria and the province of Moqui and Zuni." On Father Kino's maps (the copies) Apacheria is never found in the same exact position.
Con:
"Kino never set foot north of the Gila River. Neither he nor Manje nor Velarde ever state that nor do they describe the area north of the Gila based on their own observations, only what the O'odham told them. Just because somebody said that a league was 2.18 miles doesn't mean that Kino's estimates can be calculated according to that standard, especially since it is clear in the historical record that the concept of league was a fluid one and that nobody had any reliable way of calculating it in any way that can be applied to a modern map. You are not the first nor, I am sure, the last to make this "observation," but it is based on a fallacy and in no way reflects what any of those people said about the places they traveled. At best, it amounts to wishful thinking. Kino made it to the Gila, the edge of Apacheria, and no farther. He never visited the "Moqui" nor does it matter where he placed them on a map. He was never in the Superstitions."
View attachment 1171092
Pro:
Apacheria was (to Father Kino) the lands east and to some degree north of Casa Grande. It is not a fixed location but rather this quasi area. So, in Father Kino's own words he reached the lands beyond the Gila, however he does not indicate just how far... unless you consider the story Manuellita: The Story of San Xavier Del Bac. (Marian Calvert Wilson 1891). This story has Father Kino traveling to visit the Moqui.
"The eroded forms resembling human figures on top of the mountain are responsible for its name. A Pima legend describes them as Indians who sought refuge on the mountain from a great flood and were warned not to make any sound until all the waters had receded; they disobeyed and were turned into stone. The light streak running under them is said to mark the height of the flood. The Spanish call this Sierra de Espuma (foam mountain)."
Arizona
Page 350
"Some authors and writers would lead you to believe the Spanish named Superstition Mountain. Sims Ely, author of The Lost Dutchman Mine, stated in the opening chapter of his classic book on the Lost Dutchman Mine that the Spanish named Superstition Mountain Sierra de espuma meaning a "mountain of foam." The origin of this name appears to be a forest service map drawn by L.P. Landon in 1918. Landon named a small butte southwest of Superstition Mountain Monte de Espuma."
The Superstition Mountain
Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society.
In the beginning...
Pro:
[As early as 1687, a Jesuit missionary from the province of Sonora, which, in its southern portion, bore already the impress of Spanish civilization, descending the Valley of Santa Cruz River to the Gila. Passing down the Gila to its mouth, after exploring the country, he retraced his steps, penetrated the country north of the Gila River for some distance, and ascended the Salinas or Salt River and other branches of the Gila.]
Con:
"The passage you cite is often quoted by people who believe that it means that Kino wandered around north of the Gila. However, all that it suggests is that he or some other Jesuit made it into the Salt River Valley, not the Superstitions. Even if it is true, there is no evidence that he or any other Jesuit or Franciscan missionary or Iberian explorer of any kind ever followed the Salt River past its confluence with the Verde. Most of Kino's geographic knowledge of that area came from the Pima, not from first-hand observation."
Ascend - to go up or climb
Late Middle English: from Latin ascendere, from ad- 'to' + scandere 'to climb'.
Oxford Dictionary
Pro:
"To the north and northeast I have (travelled) on different occasions more than one hundred and thirty leagues..." (Kino). Father Kino's base for his expeditions into current day Arizona was the mission Nuestra Senora de los Dolores, which is approximately 30 km north of Cucurpe, Sonora. If we convert statute leagues (1 statute league = 2.18 miles) into miles this means that Father Kino traveled "more than" 283.4 miles north of the mission... in his own words. On a current map this would put Father Kino approximatly 30-35+ miles north of the Sierra de Espuma, which would have placed him in the territory of the Moqui (Hopi).
According to Bolton, at one time in history, the territory of the Moqui included the vast area north of the Gila.
Most people reading Father Kino's work come away thinking that he stopped at the Casa Grande ruins, but he doesn't say that this was as far as he had ventured, only that he had traveled to that location,"to Casa Grande, which is a building of the ancients of Montesuma,...". The confusion may stem from Father Kino's description of Apaceria..."And I have penetrated to the borders and in plain sight of the Apacheria, which intervenes between this extensive Pimeria and the province of Moqui and Zuni." On Father Kino's maps (the copies) Apacheria is never found in the same exact position.
Con:
"Kino never set foot north of the Gila River. Neither he nor Manje nor Velarde ever state that nor do they describe the area north of the Gila based on their own observations, only what the O'odham told them. Just because somebody said that a league was 2.18 miles doesn't mean that Kino's estimates can be calculated according to that standard, especially since it is clear in the historical record that the concept of league was a fluid one and that nobody had any reliable way of calculating it in any way that can be applied to a modern map. You are not the first nor, I am sure, the last to make this "observation," but it is based on a fallacy and in no way reflects what any of those people said about the places they traveled. At best, it amounts to wishful thinking. Kino made it to the Gila, the edge of Apacheria, and no farther. He never visited the "Moqui" nor does it matter where he placed them on a map. He was never in the Superstitions."
View attachment 1171092
Pro:
Apacheria was (to Father Kino) the lands east and to some degree north of Casa Grande. It is not a fixed location but rather this quasi area. So, in Father Kino's own words he reached the lands beyond the Gila, however he does not indicate just how far... unless you consider the story Manuellita: The Story of San Xavier Del Bac. (Marian Calvert Wilson 1891). This story has Father Kino traveling to visit the Moqui.
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