Sims Ely book - why no mention of the Dick Holmes side of the story?

[Cubfan64]

Sims Ely book - why no mention of the Dick Holmes' side of the story?

I've wondered this for awhile and have some theories, but thought I'd toss the idea out there and see if others have any "outside the box" theories.

Here are some of my "thinking out loud" ideas and related questions...

1) Ely mentions in his book that when Julia came home from the funeral (burial?) the discovery was made that someone had taken the gold from under Waltz's bed. I believe he implies that they never knew anything more about what happened.

2) Did he get that information from Julia herself? Did she implicate Dick Holmes and Ely just didn't want to specify anyone's name for slander reasons?

3) Was the Holmes story about being at Waltz's bedside before he died "common knowledge" during the time Ely and Bark searched for the LDM, or did that information become widespread after they quit?

4) If it was known, why no mention of it by either Ely or Bark? Did they just discount the story as complete BS, or did they make the conscious decision to go strictly with the Thomas/Petrasch version of events? Did they ever try to interview Dick Holmes?

 

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[Oroblanco]

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[Old Bookaroo]

Cubfan64:

I think the Ely book (while it remains an essential work on the LDM) is more of a memoir than a history. In my opinion Robert Blair's remains the best book on the subject (although it does have some minor errors - and his attitude towards other writers is overly aggressive, in my view).

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[gollum]

Booky,

There are only two books I have read regarding the Lost Dutchman that I gave away immediately after reading them:

1. Fools Gold (Robert Sikorsky)

The fact that he ignored many well known facts to support his view lost my interest very quickly.

2. Tales of the Superstitions (Robert Blair)

Same reason for Blair's Book, but even more egregiously, he basically concluded that since he hadn't found it, it must not exist. I think it was also Blair that said IF there was anything to the story, it could only be in the place he found in the Bradshaw Range.

As far as Ely not including Holmes' Story in his book, it may have had something to do with the feud that started after Waltz' Death. One side said that Holmes stole the box of ore from under Waltz' death bed, versus the other side that believed Holmes' Story about Waltz giving it to him. Since the only two people known to be present at the time of Waltz' death were Waltz and Holmes, we will never know for certain!

Best - Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Booky,

There are only two books I have read regarding the Lost Dutchman that I gave away immediately after reading them:

1. Fools Gold (Robert Sikorsky)

The fact that he ignored many well known facts to support his view lost my interest very quickly.

2. Tales of the Superstitions (Robert Blair)

Same reason for Blair's Book, but even more egregiously, he basically concluded that since he hadn't found it, it must not exist. I think it was also Blair that said IF there was anything to the story, it could only be in the place he found in the Bradshaw Range.

As far as Ely not including Holmes' Story in his book, it may have had something to do with the feud that started after Waltz' Death. One side said that Holmes stole the box of ore from under Waltz' death bed, versus the other side that believed Holmes' Story about Waltz giving it to him. Since the only two people known to be present at the time of Waltz' death were Waltz and Holmes, we will never know for certain!

Best - Mike

Mike,

"We" don't know for certain that Holmes was at Waltz's deathbed. There is some doubt at this time.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Mike,

"We" don't know for certain that Holmes was at Waltz's deathbed. There is some doubt at this time.

Take care,

Joe

None of us were there to see, so we have to either take their word or not. One might wonder though, how it was that Holmes ended up with gold that HE said came from Waltz's deathbed candle box, if he were not there to get possession of it? Also that Julia and Reiney were convinced that Holmes had taken it. When else would he have gotten it, if not by the fact that he was present? Not to mention Holmes lifelong search for the mine that followed. I dont' see a good reason to doubt that he was present.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

If you mean, "was Holmes present at the time Waltz died", then I have to give that to you, but if you mean, "he wasn't anywhere near where Waltz died" then you can't be right, as he did end up with Waltz' box or ore. The other possibility is that Holmes had heard about Waltz beng on deaths door at Julia's, and went there. When he got there, Waltz had already died. Knowing that Waltz had a gold mine, he may have started looking around for clues and found the box. He then made up the story about Waltz giving him the ore, and the rest is history.

..... and possibly Waltz was barely conscious and delirious and gave the ore to Holmes thinking he was Rhiney. Who knows?


Personally, I can't imagine him giving the ore to Holmes and not Julia and Rhiney! J&R both spoke the same dialect of German that Waltz did. Julia took him into her place and cared for him until his death. He already had a very longstanding relationship with Julia.

I just used the feud between the two sides as a possibility as to why Ely didn't include Holmes' Story in HIS book.

Best - Mike

 

[Old Bookaroo]

gollum:

I think Fool's Gold has a useful bibliography. I did not place much stock in the text.

Regarding the missing ore, what about "Door #3?" Perhaps there was little or no gold ore under The Dutchman's deathbed?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Oroblanco]

gollum:



Regarding the missing ore, what about "Door #3?" Perhaps there was little or no gold ore under The Dutchman's deathbed?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

Perhaps, in which case Dick Holmes was remarkably stupid to go hunting for a mine for so many years, based on little or no gold he had obtained right? Or perhaps as Tom Kollenborn theorized, it was simply gold that Waltz had socked away from many years and many different mines, from CA and the Bradshaws as a "savings account"? Then we are left wondering why Waltz would have told his closest friends that he had a mine in the Superstitions, or why the people in Florence got that impression.

It is a simple equation really, anyone that does not believe that one Jacob Waltz had a gold mine in the Superstitions does not have to hunt for it; only those that are convinced there was a mine really go looking for it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Oroblanco:

We are in absolute agreement that no one has to go hunt the LDM. Or the Lost Adams. Or Pegleg Smith's black nuggets.

I think you would probably agree there are also more people talking and writing about these fascinating topics than are actually out there looking. And there are lookers who aren't talking.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[gollum]

gollum:

I think Fool's Gold has a useful bibliography. I did not place much stock in the text.

Regarding the missing ore, what about "Door #3?" Perhaps there was little or no gold ore under The Dutchman's deathbed?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

Booky,

It is a fact that Holmes came into a small fortune (in those days) of about $4000 immediately after the death of Waltz. He said it came from under Waltz' bed. I am quite certain that Julia and Rhiney had both seen the box there day after day of them caring for him. Whether they knew what was inside is another story. Don't you think that if there was no candlebox under his bed, that Julia and Rhiney would have both told everybody that Holmes was lying. That they had both been at Waltz' Bedside for weeks and never seen that box before? No, it was there, and the only question is as to the method by which Holmes obtained it.

Roy,

I just wish you would apply your same logic to every story we talk about! LOL

I agree with you 100%! Why would Holmes spend the rest of his life looking for something he knew didn't exist? Doesn't make a lick of sense! Just the same as why would Travis Tumlinson spend all those years keeping the stone maps mostly a secret, going into the Supers trying to run down leads (we know this from his friends in AJ). Why did he keep them a secret until his death? Why would he sit there for SOOOOOOOO many evenings with his friend trying to guess at the meanings of all the engravings, sticking his finger in that big hole on the lower map stone repeating every time "If I could only figure out where that is, I would be a millionaire." Not the actions of a man perpetrating a hoax!

Best - Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

I just wish you would apply your same logic to every story we talk about! LOL

I agree with you 100%! Why would Holmes spend the rest of his life looking for something he knew didn't exist? Doesn't make a lick of sense! Just the same as why would Travis Tumlinson spend all those years keeping the stone maps mostly a secret, going into the Supers trying to run down leads (we know this from his friends in AJ). Why did he keep them a secret until his death? Why would he sit there for SOOOOOOOO many evenings with his friend trying to guess at the meanings of all the engravings, sticking his finger in that big hole on the lower map stone repeating every time "If I could only figure out where that is, I would be a millionaire." Not the actions of a man perpetrating a hoax!

Actually amigo I am using the very same logic applied to Tumlinson, rather a surprise that it appears you have not. Yes Tumlinson spent time in the Superstitions, but we have reason to doubt his story concerning the stones. We have a man known to have carved stones with Spanish treasure themes, and just coincidentally this same fellow claim to have found others? To me that is a red flag. Not to mention the doubts raised by the fact that Tumlinson did not make it public knowledge that he had carved stones with Spanish treasure themes, this did not turn up until recently. Why keep it a secret that he liked to carve such stones, unless there was something dishonest about the deal?

As we were not with Tumlinson during his time spent in the Superstitions, for all we know he could have been searching for the Lost Dutchman mine and used the stone maps to entice investors to help finance his quest. This without even considering the revelations turned up by our mutual amigo Garry, that it was Travis himself who carved the Peralta stones. Think about it, here we have several carved stones done by Travis, and a relative stating that he carved the others. Why is this SO doubtful to you?

It is possible that two of the stones are genuine, and the others fraudulent too; for we do not have the Horse/Priest stone in the oldest photograph of the stones at the back of the car, nor the heart insert. Why were they not also in that oldest photo, because they had not yet been made perhaps? But for all the various solutions and arguments, I am still 100% un-convinced that they must apply to the Superstitions. The topography of the stone maps is generic enough that it will fit at least a round half dozen other areas, including several not even in Arizona, and it is not sound logic to leap to the conclusion that because the stone maps were found not far from the Superstitions they must apply to that region. For that matter they were not even found IN the Superstitions, casting further doubt as to the true area they are intended to be used.

My apologies for going rather far off topic here, not sure why it is that we must always end up talking about those Peralta stones, no matter what the original subject matter was intended to be. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Gollum wrote


Actually amigo I am using the very same logic applied to Tumlinson, rather a surprise that it appears you have not. Yes Tumlinson spent time in the Superstitions, but we have reason to doubt his story concerning the stones. We have a man known to have carved stones with Spanish treasure themes, and just coincidentally this same fellow claim to have found others? To me that is a red flag. Not to mention the doubts raised by the fact that Tumlinson did not make it public knowledge that he had carved stones with Spanish treasure themes, this did not turn up until recently. Why keep it a secret that he liked to carve such stones, unless there was something dishonest about the deal?

As we were not with Tumlinson during his time spent in the Superstitions, for all we know he could have been searching for the Lost Dutchman mine and used the stone maps to entice investors to help finance his quest. This without even considering the revelations turned up by our mutual amigo Garry, that it was Travis himself who carved the Peralta stones. Think about it, here we have several carved stones done by Travis, and a relative stating that he carved the others. Why is this SO doubtful to you?

It is possible that two of the stones are genuine, and the others fraudulent too; for we do not have the Horse/Priest stone in the oldest photograph of the stones at the back of the car, nor the heart insert. Why were they not also in that oldest photo, because they had not yet been made perhaps? But for all the various solutions and arguments, I am still 100% un-convinced that they must apply to the Superstitions. The topography of the stone maps is generic enough that it will fit at least a round half dozen other areas, including several not even in Arizona, and it is not sound logic to leap to the conclusion that because the stone maps were found not far from the Superstitions they must apply to that region. For that matter they were not even found IN the Superstitions, casting further doubt as to the true area they are intended to be used.

My apologies for going rather far off topic here, not sure why it is that we must always end up talking about those Peralta stones, no matter what the original subject matter was intended to be. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Reaching again! Of all the people Travis knew in AJ, none has ever said he asked for a penny! He was even planning a trip in with his friend from Oregon, but he died before that could happen. Nope, he kept them mostly his secret. What you say about him carving the stones is not true because Azmula actually got into detail with Travis' Relatives and they saw him carving the light colored stone (H/P?). And also, what they saw him carving may very well have been what he said he carved! He told his friend that he added some things to throw people off if the stones were ever stolen. Of all the people that knew Travis and all the people ever interviewed by Richard Pecks Investigators, not one soul has ever stated Travis asked for money from the stones! You still don't look at ALL the material. Only the part that adds to your belief. At least I have and will always admit that it is possible every one of the stones are fakes.

Sorry to get off topic here, but I couldn't resist! LOL

Best - Mike

 

[sgtfda]

What about the dentist who put up money for trips to the Superstitions after he was shown the stones by Travis.

 

[Oroblanco]

Good point Sarge.

Gollum wrote

Reaching again! Of all the people Travis knew in AJ, none has ever said he asked for a penny! He was even planning a trip in with his friend from Oregon, but he died before that could happen. Nope, he kept them mostly his secret. What you say about him carving the stones is not true because Azmula actually got into detail with Travis' Relatives and they saw him carving the light colored stone (H/P?). And also, what they saw him carving may very well have been what he said he carved! He told his friend that he added some things to throw people off if the stones were ever stolen. Of all the people that knew Travis and all the people ever interviewed by Richard Pecks Investigators, not one soul has ever stated Travis asked for money from the stones! You still don't look at ALL the material. Only the part that adds to your belief. At least I have and will always admit that it is possible every one of the stones are fakes.

Sorry to get off topic here, but I couldn't resist! LOL

No amigo not reaching; just pointed out a few facts - that we were not with Travis on his expeditions and there are reasons to doubt his story.

Yes it is true, I have never been a true believer in the Peralta stones, was not impressed with them when I first heard of them and still am not. You dismiss out of hand what Garry turned up, saying it is "not true" about Travis having carved the stones - well were you with Garry when he interviewed Travis's relatives including his daughter Janie? You accuse me of always looking for only the evidence that points to the stones being fraudulent, are you not doing the same thing by looking always and only for evidence to show they are genuine?

Did you not read what I posted, that it is possible that two of the stones are genuine?

If you really want to convince me that the Peralta stones are the genuine article - find some treasure or precious metal mines by using them. I don't think they are any more trustworthy than the other 70-odd treasure maps in public circulation.

<for any newbies interested, the Apache Jct library has a collection online at:
Apache Junction Public Library - Treasure Maps >

I apologize for continuing so much OFF TOPIC and I have no idea how to tie this back into topic. It will be my last post on the stone maps in this thread, anyone wishing to get the last word in is welcome to it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

What about the dentist who put up money for trips to the Superstitions after he was shown the stones by Travis.

Sarge,

The dentist you are referring to was asked by his renter ROBERT TUMLINSON". That was Travis' Uncle, to partner with him to go to AZ trying to figure out the stone maps. He never tried to sell them or get people to give him money. He just needed a partner. To make a long story short; sometime about 1956, Travis' health took a bad downward spiral. Don't know if he gave the stone maps to Bob, or if Bob just took them. Travis being so ill might not have even known they were gone. A few years later, the stone maps were taken back by Travis. This started a very serious feud between Travis and his Uncle Bob. After Travis got the stone maps back, he and Bob never spoke again. When Richard Peck's Investigator interviewed Bob Tumlinson in 1965, Bob didn't even know Travis had died in 1961.

Like I said, TRAVIS never tried to sell or get investors using the stone maps. He only showed them to a couple of friends and his Uncle Bob.

Roy,

You also seem to forget that I was in communication with Janie before Garry knew where she was. You also seem to forget that Janie swore to me that her father had NEVER been part of any hoax. That tells me that it is a great possibility that what his other relatives saw Travis carving was exactly what he told his friend. That he had added things to the stones to throw off people if the stones were ever stolen. Like I said. ALL THE EVIDENCE! Not just what you want remember. LOL I agree no more stone maps here.

Best - Mike

 

[sgtfda]

At Dons camp someone whispered in my ear that his opinion was that Travis made a copy of the stones leaving out some things he thought important. I guess I should say not just any old someone.

 

[Cubfan64]

Here is the exact quote from Ely's book 1954 edition, page 112...

"The two who mourned him, returned from the burial service, went about their duties, and they did not think of the box of gold under Waltz's bed until that evening. Then they found that the box was empty. Somebody, it was evident, had entered the unlocked house while they were at the cemetery and carried the gold away. But more than that, they never knew."

So we have the box still there, but the gold ore gone. We have Ely claiming that someone had obviously entered the unlocked house (shame on them by the way :P), and we have Ely stating that they never knew anything more than that.

I just find it interesting and curious that the story is so different from the "Holme's" version of events and the stories of Julia supposedly accusing Holmes of stealing the ore (although I don't believe any proof of that accusation exists - despite Milton Rose naming the judge and describing what happened).

I guess it's just a curious thing is all - it won't do anything to help prove where the LDM is or is not .

 

[wrmickel1]

A very nice post Gollum and 100 percent Dead On! about Travis,

Wrmickel1

 

[gollum]

At Dons camp someone whispered in my ear that his opinion was that Travis made a copy of the stones leaving out some things he thought important. I guess I should say not just any old someone.

If he made a copy, then it was on cloth (easy to hide and carry with you). I think it is more than likely he made the H/P Stone and an almost 100% certainty he added things to the Stone Maps. He was always worried that someone might steal them, so it makes sense that he would add things to throw off potential thieves (like he said he did).

Best - Mike