Sir William Phips

[adelantado]

The Book of Buried Treasure. Being a True History of the Gold, Jewels, and Plate of Pirates, Galleons, ETC., Which are sought for to this Day ( Ralph Delahaye Paine 1911)

This book mentions Sir William Phips who supposedly had information on the 1502 treasure fleet in Hispaniola. The book says:

"Sir William Phips, during his last visit to London, was planning another Treasure voyage. "The Spanish wreck was not the only nor the richest wreck which he knew lying under the water".
He knew particularly that when the ship which had Governor Bobadilla aboard was cast away, there was, as Peter Martyr says, "An entire table of gold of 3310 lbs weight.
"Upon a mighty shelf of rocks and bank of sands that lies where he had informed himself.""

Anyone ever found more information concerning William Phips and the "El Dorado" of Bobadilla?

Steve

 

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[stevemc]

Phips did find the ship in the Silver Banks North of Dominican Republic, and did salvage treasures. It was salvaged a few times in this last century also. I thought the gold table was lost in the Mona Passage.

 

[Tuberale]

I remember reading about this in one of Lt. Harry Reisberg's books.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi Steve,

As I already wrote you in PM, it is quite new to me that Sir William Phipps was after "El Dorado" as well. I was sure that his efforts were concentrated principally on "Nuestra Señora de la Concepcion" in Silver Bank. I do not know where you got the statement of William Phipps about "El Dorado" from, but if he mentioned it, it could be in his original logbook. As you might know, discovery of this logbook in a small private family library in England helped Burt Webber to re-discover "Concepcion" 35 years ago. When I see Burt next time I will ask him if he could lend me a copy of this logbook of William Phipps, if he still has it.

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Tuberale:

I suggest that is a very unreliable source. While his books were popular, they are not accurate. His career as a treasure salvor was in his own mind.

For a while, early in his "career," he was associated with Frank Fish up in the California Gold Country.

If you read his magazine articles, you'll notice a few photos of his "finds" were run over and over again. While it's always difficult to tell from pictures, I suspect the figurines (and the bars, for that matter) are fakes.

Wasn't Sir William Phips the governor of Massachusetts during the Salem Witch Trials?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

adelantado:

This is one of the classic books on lost treasure - a cornerstone for every library of treasure hunting literature.

Mr. Paine found in the British archives the famous "French Passes," hidden by the government from Capt. William Kidd. Kidd wanted to present them to the court to prove the vessel he plundered was a lawful prize.

While there remained the obvious issue that Capt. Kidd didn't take that ship to the authorities and have the Prize Court decide ownership of the plunder (and the ship itself), the fact remains that the prosecution refused to present the Passes in court. They must have been worried about them to have done that.

It's a great book!

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Tuberale]

Tuberale:

I suggest that is a very unreliable source. While his books were popular, they are not accurate. His career as a treasure salvor was in his own mind.

For a while, early in his "career," he was associated with Frank Fish up in the California Gold Country.

If you read his magazine articles, you'll notice a few photos of his "finds" were run over and over again. While it's always difficult to tell from pictures, I suspect the figurines (and the bars, for that matter) are fakes.

Wasn't Sir William Phips the governor of Massachusetts during the Salem Witch Trials?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

You're saying anything Reisberg published is suspect, but other sources stating the same thing are reliable?

I recall Robert Marx also stating that Mel Fisher couldn't have found the Nuestra Senora de Atocha, along with the National Geographic hinting he was hunting wild geese.

Sorry, Bookaroo. Wasn't wild geese. More like crow wasn't it?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

~The Old Bookaroo,
Yep Phips salvage of the Concepcion was so successful that it got him the appointment of Governor from the crown!

 

[Bum Luck]

Phips did find the ship in the Silver Banks North of Dominican Republic, and did salvage treasures. It was salvaged a few times in this last century also. I thought the gold table was lost in the Mona Passage.

I recall that's where Potter had it lost; it's way deep and full of currents.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi everybody,

Lost Bobadilla fleet and especially his flagship "El Dorado" were discussed many times in several books and also here in this Forum. Many expeditions and individual treasure hunters have been trying to find if not "El Dorado", so at least one shipwreck of this fleet. Without any success so far. Some rests of very old shipwrecks found in the possible area have not been positively identified (Saona Island). It is not clear where the ships were driven by that furious hurricane. Most of the hurricanes of that era were coming from south-east and the fleet was hit after 40 hours after leaving Santo Domingo. They should have sailed against the winds, because Christopher Columbus warned Bobadilla from sailing off because of coming hurricane (but he was not heard of by arrogant ex-governor), so it is not so clear like some of the historians say that most of the fleet was lost in deep Mona Channel. If you take average speed of 3-4 knots per hour of the caravels of that time, it would bring them as a maximum 140 miles from Santo Domingo, which would be exactly the eastern corner of the island, it means BEFORE they would have entered Mona Channel. It is even not clear so far how many ships formed the fleet. Some historian say the fleet of 31 ships, some historians say 27, some 29.... left Santo Domingo harbor on the 4th of July 1502 and after 40 hours of sailing (some of them say after 2 days) they were hit by unusually strong hurricane. Most of the ships were lost with the loss of everything on board including human lives. Over 500 men perished, among them Francisco Bobadilla, rebel Francisco Roldan taken to Spain in chains together with his followers and also Indian cacique Guarionex. They were on board of the flagship of this fleet called "El Dorado". The real name of this newly constructed nao of 130 tons was "Santa Maria de la Antigua". Potter gave the name "El Dorado" to this ship in 1975 because of huge amount of gold lost with her, including giant gold nugget of 32 pounds (that some converted in solid gold table....). Harry Rieseberg named this ship "Golden Hinde" probably from the same reasons in 1962, but the name "El Dorado" prevailed since then. (Do not mix it up with "Golden Hind", which was flagship of Francis Drake that circumnavigated the world and arrived back to England after two years filled with treasures and it happened decades after the loss of 1502 fleet). Anyway, Pater Charlevoix wrote in his memories that ".... the sea never before swallowed so much treasure on board of only one ship....". There were perls, golden dust, jewelry, golden nuggets from Hispaniola mines on board of "El Dorado", not only giant gold nugget, found by coincidence by a Indian woman slave close to Haina River west of Santo Domingo. The nugget was so big that they could eat on it (it might be reason of later "golden table").

It is known that some of the ships were broken to pieces on sharp coastal reefs of eastern coast of Hispaniola. There is a spot there called "Punta Bobadilla" till today! Oviedo also mentioned that "three or four ships were wrecked on Saona Island....." Two badly battered ships made it back to Santo Domingo and only one made it to Cadiz - small caravel called "La Aguja". If the fleet would have been caught by hurricane in the middle of Mona Channel and driven up through deep waters, these two ships would have never made it back to Santo Domingo, but rather to Samana or San Juan. Currents flow for centuries from east to west alongside the southern coast. Garbage from Santo Domingo can be found in Barahona in couple of weeks, it means over 100 kilometers to the west from the capital.

Well, guys, just my two cents and my personal opinion to the discussion.....

Regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

 

[Tuberale]

The Book of Buried Treasure. Being a True History of the Gold, Jewels, and Plate of Pirates, Galleons, ETC., Which are sought for to this Day ( Ralph Delahaye Paine 1911)

This book mentions Sir William Phips who supposedly had information on the 1502 treasure fleet in Hispaniola. The book says:

"Sir William Phips, during his last visit to London, was planning another Treasure voyage. "The Spanish wreck was not the only nor the richest wreck which he knew lying under the water".
He knew particularly that when the ship which had Governor Bobadilla aboard was cast away, there was, as Peter Martyr says, "An entire table of gold of 3310 lbs weight.
"Upon a mighty shelf of rocks and bank of sands that lies where he had informed himself.""

Anyone ever found more information concerning William Phips and the "El Dorado" of Bobadilla?

Steve

I remember reading of the solid gold table. Had to be small and low to the ground, otherwise the weight would have bent it in the center anyways. I seem to recall the loss was closer to South America than the Dominican Republic. Might have been in Marx.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Tuberale:

I couldn't understand your comment.

I don't know of anyone who takes the books of Harry Rieseberg seriously. Much of what he wrote was just made-up - particularly the accounts of his own career as a treasure hunter. My copy of Coffman's 1001 was annotated by Bob Nesmith, and the
"Ace Treasure Hunter" chapter is marked "Bunk!"

Remember that account in one of Rieseberg's books about the inscription on Phips' tomb? Made up. There are photos in his book of him "salvaging" treasure in hardhat gear. To me, it's obvious those photos were taken in a tank.

That doesn't mean everything in his books isn't true. He may well have copied an actual fact from someone else. But why take the chance? Why not use The Homewrecker or Horner or other books that are much more reliable?

I researched the Brother Jonathan yarn many years ago. Rieseberg's account of the phantom treasure on board that hulk was just as false as that written by many others.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Tuberale]

Tuberale:

I couldn't understand your comment.

I don't know of anyone who takes the books of Harry Rieseberg seriously. Much of what he wrote was just made-up - particularly the accounts of his own career as a treasure hunter. My copy of Coffman's 1001 was annotated by Bob Nesmith, and the
"Ace Treasure Hunter" chapter is marked "Bunk!"

Remember that account in one of Rieseberg's books about the inscription on Phips' tomb? Made up. There are photos in his book of him "salvaging" treasure in hardhat gear. To me, it's obvious those photos were taken in a tank.

That doesn't mean everything in his books isn't true. He may well have copied an actual fact from someone else. But why take the chance? Why not use The Homewrecker or Horner or other books that are much more reliable?

I researched the Brother Jonathan yarn many years ago. Rieseberg's account of the phantom treasure on board that hulk was just as false as that written by many others.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

My comment was in regards to the supposed solid gold (24K) table. The heaviness and purity of the table would have caused it to bend under its own weight. Solid gold is quite soft, and not at all like 20K or 14K. Copper usually is added as an alloy in order to stabilize larger golden objects from falling in on themselves: also one reason 24K is rarely used for anything except bullion bars.

I have used Riesberg's listings of shipwrecks, and will continue to use them. At least until something more reliable comes along. I haven't searched for shipwrecks at all, and probably won't do any serious searching during my lifetime. But Riesberg at least had the sense to get some of them down on paper.

Regarding some of the photos in his books: he admitted some of them had to be re-created.

Not since William Phips and William Penn had there been much literature on ship salvage. IMO Riesberg's books helped fill a knowledge gap.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

2.0 Update: In spirited last-second bidding, it was knocked down for $114.50 - plus shipping. The winner here is the Seller! Again - WoW!

I saw on eBay this morning (August 2, 2011) an ex-library copy of Mr. Paine's book has been bid up to over $100.

Wow! This copy is the 1926 second edition, it's been rebound in the typical hard cloth library binding, according to the description has the usual marks and other flaws associated with x-lib - and the bidding is into 3 figures.

I am amazed.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[jeff k]

I saw on eBay this morning (August 2, 2011) an ex-library copy of Mr. Paine's book has been bid up to over $100.

Wow! This copy is the 1926 second edition, it's been rebound in the typical hard cloth library binding, according to the description has the usual marks and other flaws associated with x-lib - and the bidding is into 3 figures.

I am amazed.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

You can download this book for free.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33318

 

[trsrseeker]

Thanks for posting that link

 

[Chagy]

The one who found Phips logbook was Dr. Eugene Lyons and that is how Burt found La Concepcion if there was any mention of Bobadillas wreck on that logbook Burt would have found it by now.....

All the best,

Chagy.....

 

[Bobadilla]

Hola Compadre!

Luis, your information about the logbook was, as usually, accurate, but I do not think that if there would be some remark about "El Dorado", Burt would have found it already..... Remember, he was obsessed with Concepcion, investors breathing to his neck, pressing by time, his only interest was "Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion". He was looking only for information about this specific shipwreck in the logbook and he was not interested in anything else at that moment. Twenty years later he tried to find "El Dorado", he was working on this project for about three months, between Saona Island and the entrance to Mona Channel. He found, indeed, rest of at least one shipwreck from the early 16th century on the reefs of Saona. Much later, it was "discovered" again by Indiana University.

Also, there are only three lines in the whole Phipps logbook saying exactly where famous "Golden Fleece" of English pirate Jack Bannister rests. Phipps found it by coincidence just couple of months after this pirate ship had been sunk by two English frigates in Samana, when he was taking water and food there for his final part of the journey to Silver Bank. Nobody has been interested in this valuable information so far and that's why nobody has found this shipwreck so far. Capt. Tracy Bowden found an English wreck from the same era in the area, and first he thought it was "Golden Fleece", but this wreck is in completely wrong position. There are other clear marks about the exact position of this shipwreck from other historical documents and even from local history and names, for example "Bannister Keys", but nobody listens and reads.....

Best regards, Chagy, and give my best regards also to your lovely wife Lucy. I hope to meet you soon again, bro!

Lobo (Bobadilla)

 

[Peter K]

Hello all,

First post here and I hope this is helpful:

The Phips log referred to is that of the “Henry” the smaller of the two ships under Phips’ command on his successful expedition in 1686-1687 to the wreck of the Nuestra Señora de la Concepcion" and the one under the command of Francis Rogers that actually found the wreck site. The log was written by one William Yarway.

The log ended up in the Centre for Kentish Studies to which place the author Peter Earle directed Jack Haskins; Burt Webber’s researcher. This log was far more accurate and allowed the searchers to narrow down their search area considerably.

I had need to read the log recently as I’m researching the further career of one of Phips’ officers but I was informed at the CKS that the original lender had withdrawn the loan and sold it. If anyone has a copy…

I’d be surprised if the Henry’s log mentions the "El Dorado" of Bobadilla. The return expedition led by Sir John Narborough from September 1687 to May 1688 was hard work as most of the accessible “treasure” had been removed by the locals. Narborough, Phips et al struggled long and hard to break through the coral which had covered the stern.

By May 1688 Narborough saw fit to direct a sloop called the Anne to look for treasure on a reef “about 16 leagues to ye eastwards of ye reef”. If they had known about the "El Dorado" of Bobadilla you would expect them to look for it at this point rather than check out the famous (and unsubstantiated) treasure on a reef which apparently could be seen above water.

For Phips to have seriously been thinking of a further treasure hunting expedition it may be useful to look at his further movements.

To cut a long story short:

His movements after he left the wreck site in May 1688 are fairly well accounted for and were mainly taken up by political considerations.
He went directly to Boston to take up his new position as Provost Marshall of the much resented Dominion of New England (the reward for his successful expedition) but sailed to England again in August 1688. At this time the lesser known 3rd Expedition to the wreck site was being made ready but Phips played no role in it. He stayed in London until March 1689 and arrived in Boston the following May. He was thus in London during the Glorious Revolution and spent his time lobbying for a return of the Massachusetts Charter.

There is then an unaccounted for gap in his known whereabouts: between May 1689 and March 1690. He led his 2 expeditions against Port Royal N.S and Quebec towards the end of that year (1690) before returning to London in early 1691. It was during this trip to London in 1691-2 that the Massachusetts Charter was restored and Phips was named as the Governor. He left London in January 1692 returned to Boston in May 1692 where he promptly became embroiled in the Salem Witchcraft Trials.

He was recalled to London to defend himself against certain political accusations in late 1694 arriving on 1st January 1695. He died in London on 17th February and was buried in St Mary Woolnoth London on 21st “in the Vault near the Organ Gallery”.

To finish, Charles Driscoll, writing in “Doubloons”, has this to say:

"During all his years of statecraft, Sir William Phips longed to go back to treasure-hunting….According to Peter Martyr, whose work was known to and quoted by Sir William Phips, the golden table weighed 3,310 pounds. Mather, who doubtless spent many a long evening talking about this treasure with the Governor, had the impression Phips knew just where to look for the precious table and planned to go and get it as soon as his days of office-holding were over. He died with the plan still unrealised, and if he left any chart showing the location of the table of Bobadilla, the chart is not known to exist today."

Hope this helps the original post

Kind Rgds (& open to any corrections)

Peter K

 

[Vox veritas]

Hi,
very interesting Bobadilla. This is my version of events. In 1987 an Italian historian, my good friend, got some photocopies (and I saw them) of the bundle archived and cataloged in the AGI on Bobadilla. Some months later, I applied for this bundle, but the officials told me that it was impossible to find. He had disappeared! Nobody knew anything about it.
VV