old man
Bronze Member
I heard that ARS found one of the 1502 wrecks in t 
he DR. Can anyone confirm this?
he DR. Can anyone confirm this?
Sir William Phips
- Thread starter adelantado
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Bobadilla
Sr. Member
Peter K,
Thank you for your very interesting post. It is still doubtful if William Phipps really wanted to go after "El Dorado" and if he had some knowledge about her last resting place. I have studied Bobadilla fleet as much as I could and as I have found there were at least 7 different theories about the place where the disaster struck that fleet. Most of them simply state that the fleet disappeared in the depths of Mona Channel. I personally think that it is not truth because they did not manage to sail so far. Some historical documents say that the hurricane struck the fleet between 8 and 12 leagues from Santo Domingo, it means way before they could even enter the Mona Channel. Christopher Columbus placed some of the shipwrecks including "El Dorado" on the coast of Island of Saona, some authors thinks it could on sharo coral reefs close to Santo Domingo, Oviedo thinks about the possibility that the currents and storng winds could deposit the rests of some of these chips even close to the Island of Beata, which in tgeory would be pretty much possible. Nobody knows until somebody finds at least one of the shipwrecks from that ill-fated fleet.
Old Man,
The truth is that one of the possible targets of ARS in a long run is 1502 fleet but we cannot say that we have found one of the shipwrecks from this fleet yet. I should know, I am principal archaeologist of ARS in the Dominican Republic. Yes, we found one very old shipwreck recently, most probably from the very early 16th century, but we have just started to explore this shipwreck so it will take some time to confirm and to get more details.
Regards to all,
Lobo
Thank you for your very interesting post. It is still doubtful if William Phipps really wanted to go after "El Dorado" and if he had some knowledge about her last resting place. I have studied Bobadilla fleet as much as I could and as I have found there were at least 7 different theories about the place where the disaster struck that fleet. Most of them simply state that the fleet disappeared in the depths of Mona Channel. I personally think that it is not truth because they did not manage to sail so far. Some historical documents say that the hurricane struck the fleet between 8 and 12 leagues from Santo Domingo, it means way before they could even enter the Mona Channel. Christopher Columbus placed some of the shipwrecks including "El Dorado" on the coast of Island of Saona, some authors thinks it could on sharo coral reefs close to Santo Domingo, Oviedo thinks about the possibility that the currents and storng winds could deposit the rests of some of these chips even close to the Island of Beata, which in tgeory would be pretty much possible. Nobody knows until somebody finds at least one of the shipwrecks from that ill-fated fleet.
Old Man,
The truth is that one of the possible targets of ARS in a long run is 1502 fleet but we cannot say that we have found one of the shipwrecks from this fleet yet. I should know, I am principal archaeologist of ARS in the Dominican Republic. Yes, we found one very old shipwreck recently, most probably from the very early 16th century, but we have just started to explore this shipwreck so it will take some time to confirm and to get more details.
Regards to all,
Lobo
signumops
Hero Member
Peter K:
Many thanks for your enlightening post!
Neither the Spanish or the Indians would waste a ton of gold on an object such as a table unless it was an alter, and were it an alter, we would have heard of it as such.
The Indians of the era in that part of the world were very capable goldsmiths who could meld gold using hollow molds, chemically weld joints of metal to one another and so forth. The Spaniards may have ordered them to pound out the gold to use as sheathing on a wooden table, but, if you were going to make furniture, would you not wish to build a chair before you made a table? To wit: a throne.(?)
A 32 pound nugget might make a 'tray', but I doubt it could be assauged to 'table' size. It may have been 'as flat as a table'.
Good luck to ARS! I'd like somebody to find at least one of the Bobadilla fleet. In particular 'Bobadilla'!
Many thanks for your enlightening post!
Neither the Spanish or the Indians would waste a ton of gold on an object such as a table unless it was an alter, and were it an alter, we would have heard of it as such.
The Indians of the era in that part of the world were very capable goldsmiths who could meld gold using hollow molds, chemically weld joints of metal to one another and so forth. The Spaniards may have ordered them to pound out the gold to use as sheathing on a wooden table, but, if you were going to make furniture, would you not wish to build a chair before you made a table? To wit: a throne.(?)
A 32 pound nugget might make a 'tray', but I doubt it could be assauged to 'table' size. It may have been 'as flat as a table'.
Good luck to ARS! I'd like somebody to find at least one of the Bobadilla fleet. In particular 'Bobadilla'!
Hello all,
“It is still doubtful if William Phipps really wanted to go after "El Dorado" and if he had some knowledge about her last resting place.”
I suppose this is the crucial point here, Lobo. It seems that he was almost certainly planning an expedition to go after another wreck, possibly "El Dorado", but whether he knew its exact location is very doubtful. He seemingly left no personal record that that was what he was intending but it would have been in character. However, he died before he could find any definite financial backers or get a Royal warrant.
Briefly, going by the only 2nd or 3rd party accounts I can find; he either read De Orbo Novo The Eight Decades of Peter Martyr D'Anghera and gleaned the information from there or heard it personally from an “old Spaniard”.
If the latter is true, given the silence of the ship’s logs on his 1686-87 and 1687-1688 expeditions to the Silver Bank it may be that he heard it from an “old Spaniard” after 1688 possibly in Boston or London or before 1686 possibly in the Caribbean and kept quiet about it. The court records here (London) for this period -1688 to about 1700 – contain similar references to "first hand knowledge" and it was obviously an important part of interesting financial backers but in Phips’ case it seems there may be an element of truth.
For that we have to go back to his reconnaissance trip in search of the Silver Bank wreck in the Rose of Algeree in 1683-85. Phips seemingly had no idea where to find the wreck site until he visited Jamaica in late 1684. In port at this time were the crew members of the rival expedition led by Edward Stanley who were in possession of the “Spanish Directions” and had also interviewed a 68 year old survivor of the original Silver Bank wreck who was living in Puerto de la Plata. It was this survivor who first made Stanley think he may be looking on the wrong reef.
Details are sketchy but Phips seems to have also found and taken on board “an old Spaniard” somewhere in Hispaniola (presumably Puerto de la Plata) after he left Jamaica in November 1684 who then steered him in the right direction. It’s unknown exactly where he picked up this witness but the co-incidence with Stanley is remarkable. As is Phips’ almost immediate voyage to the general vicinity of the wreck site after his stay in Jamaica. Quite clearly he picked up the information he most needed in Jamaica.
Maybe this witness tipped off Phips as to the exact whereabouts of "El Dorado" while helping him find the Silver Bank but personally I think Phips’ biographer (Cotton Mather) got muddled up. I suppose it’s also possible he picked up his source on the south coast of Hispaniola and he then pointed out the location of “El Dorado” on their way past but there is nothing to show that this is true in any way and certainly this man was not a survivor of “El Dorado” as he would have been a very old man indeed!
If there’s anything in this the answers would presumably lie in pages the log of the Rose of Algeree (also known as the Golden Rose or the Sally Rose) but I don’t know where this log is. As the ship was under loan from the King the log should be in the Admiralty records.
Still, if Phips did leave any private written evidence that he knew exactly where to look for “El Dorado” it would probably be in the personal papers of anyone in London he possibly approached to back him between 1st January and 17th February 1695. Four of his original backers had already died so it may be extremely difficult to identify who these men may be. William Paterson or Thomas Neale would be my favourites.
Another potential source for this evidence may be in any papers he may have bequeathed to his wife. She in turn bequeathed most of her estate to Spencer Phips.
All in all I would suggest it is extremely doubtful that Phips knew “exactly” where “El Dorado” lay and if he did he believed it to be somewhere other than where it is believed to lie today but one or two doubts remain:
• Although he was a very confident man he seems to be convinced that he knew its location
• He had successfully found the Conception on the Silver Bank using in part the exact same method (an “old Spaniard”)
• He would not have tried to work a wreck in deep water which seems to rule out the Mona Passage
I have a newspaper article dated 1984 which mentions the original documentation of the 1502 fleet. Although it states that primary information is sketchy what information there is “is in the form of notes by a Spanish priest named Friar Bartolome de las Casas and records kept by Colombus ’son”. The article, which is presumably based on the primary information, states that “about 24 hours after it departed, the fleet was torn by a violent storm.” The article names a former college professor in the US who did the research. It may be worth seeing if he kept anything if the file is now missing. I believe he was working for Burt Webber.
Kind rgds and sorry for such a long post!
Open to any corrections as usual.
Peter K
“It is still doubtful if William Phipps really wanted to go after "El Dorado" and if he had some knowledge about her last resting place.”
I suppose this is the crucial point here, Lobo. It seems that he was almost certainly planning an expedition to go after another wreck, possibly "El Dorado", but whether he knew its exact location is very doubtful. He seemingly left no personal record that that was what he was intending but it would have been in character. However, he died before he could find any definite financial backers or get a Royal warrant.
Briefly, going by the only 2nd or 3rd party accounts I can find; he either read De Orbo Novo The Eight Decades of Peter Martyr D'Anghera and gleaned the information from there or heard it personally from an “old Spaniard”.
If the latter is true, given the silence of the ship’s logs on his 1686-87 and 1687-1688 expeditions to the Silver Bank it may be that he heard it from an “old Spaniard” after 1688 possibly in Boston or London or before 1686 possibly in the Caribbean and kept quiet about it. The court records here (London) for this period -1688 to about 1700 – contain similar references to "first hand knowledge" and it was obviously an important part of interesting financial backers but in Phips’ case it seems there may be an element of truth.
For that we have to go back to his reconnaissance trip in search of the Silver Bank wreck in the Rose of Algeree in 1683-85. Phips seemingly had no idea where to find the wreck site until he visited Jamaica in late 1684. In port at this time were the crew members of the rival expedition led by Edward Stanley who were in possession of the “Spanish Directions” and had also interviewed a 68 year old survivor of the original Silver Bank wreck who was living in Puerto de la Plata. It was this survivor who first made Stanley think he may be looking on the wrong reef.
Details are sketchy but Phips seems to have also found and taken on board “an old Spaniard” somewhere in Hispaniola (presumably Puerto de la Plata) after he left Jamaica in November 1684 who then steered him in the right direction. It’s unknown exactly where he picked up this witness but the co-incidence with Stanley is remarkable. As is Phips’ almost immediate voyage to the general vicinity of the wreck site after his stay in Jamaica. Quite clearly he picked up the information he most needed in Jamaica.
Maybe this witness tipped off Phips as to the exact whereabouts of "El Dorado" while helping him find the Silver Bank but personally I think Phips’ biographer (Cotton Mather) got muddled up. I suppose it’s also possible he picked up his source on the south coast of Hispaniola and he then pointed out the location of “El Dorado” on their way past but there is nothing to show that this is true in any way and certainly this man was not a survivor of “El Dorado” as he would have been a very old man indeed!
If there’s anything in this the answers would presumably lie in pages the log of the Rose of Algeree (also known as the Golden Rose or the Sally Rose) but I don’t know where this log is. As the ship was under loan from the King the log should be in the Admiralty records.
Still, if Phips did leave any private written evidence that he knew exactly where to look for “El Dorado” it would probably be in the personal papers of anyone in London he possibly approached to back him between 1st January and 17th February 1695. Four of his original backers had already died so it may be extremely difficult to identify who these men may be. William Paterson or Thomas Neale would be my favourites.
Another potential source for this evidence may be in any papers he may have bequeathed to his wife. She in turn bequeathed most of her estate to Spencer Phips.
All in all I would suggest it is extremely doubtful that Phips knew “exactly” where “El Dorado” lay and if he did he believed it to be somewhere other than where it is believed to lie today but one or two doubts remain:
• Although he was a very confident man he seems to be convinced that he knew its location
• He had successfully found the Conception on the Silver Bank using in part the exact same method (an “old Spaniard”)
• He would not have tried to work a wreck in deep water which seems to rule out the Mona Passage
I have a newspaper article dated 1984 which mentions the original documentation of the 1502 fleet. Although it states that primary information is sketchy what information there is “is in the form of notes by a Spanish priest named Friar Bartolome de las Casas and records kept by Colombus ’son”. The article, which is presumably based on the primary information, states that “about 24 hours after it departed, the fleet was torn by a violent storm.” The article names a former college professor in the US who did the research. It may be worth seeing if he kept anything if the file is now missing. I believe he was working for Burt Webber.
Kind rgds and sorry for such a long post!
Open to any corrections as usual.
Peter K
Bobadilla
Sr. Member
Peter,
Thanks for excellent post and my hat off.... You are true researcher, my friend. It would be a pleasure for me to meet you in person one day. Keep posting, please......
I must aree with your logical thinking and I would like to point out one information from your post...."the fleet was hit by hurricane 24 hours after departing..." It is quite known historical information for somebody who is deeply interested in this fleet. Taking into account that Christopher Columbus was already warning Bobadilla to stay in safe harbor because hurricane iwas coming and "strong winds were already blowing", the fleet had to sail AGAINST the wind. According to all the accesible researches about the hurricanes in the 16th century, 95% of all of them were blowing from the south-east, it means against the direction of the fleet. The ships could do maximum two miles per hour against this kind of wind. 24 x 2 = 48 miles = cca 86 kilometers east from Santo Domingo, in other words way before to even approach to the entrance to the Mona Channel. Your last remark about Burt Webber is also interesting because I know that Burt spent about three months searching for El Dorado about two decades ago. His search was concentrated around Saona Island.... It could be interesting coincidence - William Phipps and Burt Webber looking for the same treasure ships, "Concepcion" and "El Dorado".....
Best regards,
Lobo
Thanks for excellent post and my hat off.... You are true researcher, my friend. It would be a pleasure for me to meet you in person one day. Keep posting, please......
I must aree with your logical thinking and I would like to point out one information from your post...."the fleet was hit by hurricane 24 hours after departing..." It is quite known historical information for somebody who is deeply interested in this fleet. Taking into account that Christopher Columbus was already warning Bobadilla to stay in safe harbor because hurricane iwas coming and "strong winds were already blowing", the fleet had to sail AGAINST the wind. According to all the accesible researches about the hurricanes in the 16th century, 95% of all of them were blowing from the south-east, it means against the direction of the fleet. The ships could do maximum two miles per hour against this kind of wind. 24 x 2 = 48 miles = cca 86 kilometers east from Santo Domingo, in other words way before to even approach to the entrance to the Mona Channel. Your last remark about Burt Webber is also interesting because I know that Burt spent about three months searching for El Dorado about two decades ago. His search was concentrated around Saona Island.... It could be interesting coincidence - William Phipps and Burt Webber looking for the same treasure ships, "Concepcion" and "El Dorado".....
Best regards,
Lobo
Thanks Lobo.
I still maintain that Phips would not attempt a salvage in deep water which means that if he did know (or thought he knew) the exact location it would be fairly shallow. Do you know roughly how deep the waters are around Saona Island? Shallow enough for a 17th Century recovery expedition?
There also remains the possibility that the hurricane that hit the 1502 fleet was in the 5% that blew from another direction. 24 hours with the wind! How far might that take you I wonder?
I think we can add Phips/Webber - Conception/El Dorado recovery sequence to our list of doubts. Who knows what Burt found out during his research.
As mentioned I’m researching the further careers of one or two of Phips officers so have taken a interest in the whole treasure hunting "boom" of the period.
Kind Rgds
Peter K
I still maintain that Phips would not attempt a salvage in deep water which means that if he did know (or thought he knew) the exact location it would be fairly shallow. Do you know roughly how deep the waters are around Saona Island? Shallow enough for a 17th Century recovery expedition?
There also remains the possibility that the hurricane that hit the 1502 fleet was in the 5% that blew from another direction. 24 hours with the wind! How far might that take you I wonder?
I think we can add Phips/Webber - Conception/El Dorado recovery sequence to our list of doubts. Who knows what Burt found out during his research.
As mentioned I’m researching the further careers of one or two of Phips officers so have taken a interest in the whole treasure hunting "boom" of the period.
Kind Rgds
Peter K
VOC
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Peter K, are you in contact with Peter Earle ? he has done a lot of reasearch on Phips.
Peter is aurthor of "Treasure of the Concepcion: The Wreck of the Almiranta" and "Treasure Hunt"
From Web:
Peter Earle formerly taught at the London School of Economics and is now Emeritus Reader in Economic History at the University of London. He is the author of more than a dozen books on English social and maritime history.
Peter is aurthor of "Treasure of the Concepcion: The Wreck of the Almiranta" and "Treasure Hunt"
From Web:
Peter Earle formerly taught at the London School of Economics and is now Emeritus Reader in Economic History at the University of London. He is the author of more than a dozen books on English social and maritime history.
sabre15
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Has anyone ever explored the area around the isle of Catalina?
Bobadilla
Sr. Member
Area around Catalina Island was partially explored by Indiana University in the past. Their principal interest was focused on a wreck of Capt. Kidd's "Queddah Merchant". Very close to the shore in about 10 feet of water was spotted cannons and anchors by an Italian resident living in nearby Casa de Campo resort back in 2007. He reported his find to the Dominican authorities and Indiana University was called to explore the site because they had their activities in the area. Then they announced the "discovery" of Queddah Merchant. One cannon was taken out of the water for conservation and further examination. Because of information obtained from the anchors and cannons it is believed that this shipwreck is really "Queddah Merchant". What Indiana University did well in this case is the fact, that they helped to form an underwater park for snorkelers on that shipwreck site, which is available for the public.
Regards,
Lobo
Regards,
Lobo
RELICDUDE07
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Is this the same wreck?In 1967, Ted Falcon-Barker, an Australian treasure hunter and two companions arrived at the site to try their luck at locating the wreck and breaking into the Plate Room with modern explosives. They found 96 gold gold coins (all the coins were from the reign of Ferdinand & Elizabeth 1497-1516), a solid gold crucifix and a life sized solid gold finger, possibly from a statue the Concepcion was believed to be carrying. (Arriving at Los Abrojos reef he realised that he wasn't the only person searching for treasure, other ships were already there )
Bobadilla
Sr. Member
Hello Relicdude07,
No, it is complete different wreck. You are talking about the expedition to the Silver Bank to the wreck of "Nuestra Señora de la Concepcion" in 1967. This expedition including photos of gold finger and gold coins found there was described in details in the book written by the same Falcon-Baker.
Regards,
Lobo
No, it is complete different wreck. You are talking about the expedition to the Silver Bank to the wreck of "Nuestra Señora de la Concepcion" in 1967. This expedition including photos of gold finger and gold coins found there was described in details in the book written by the same Falcon-Baker.
Regards,
Lobo
RELICDUDE07
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A survivor of wreck passed the location of the Concepcion's resting place to an Englishman named William Phips.
Phips, sponsored by King Charles II, set off to locate the wreck of the Concepcion in 1683. Arriving at Los Abrojos reef he realised that he wasn't the only person searching for treasure, other ships were already there.
I got ya-you are looking for 1 from 1502?-i guess phips would have been old & dead by then?
Phips, sponsored by King Charles II, set off to locate the wreck of the Concepcion in 1683. Arriving at Los Abrojos reef he realised that he wasn't the only person searching for treasure, other ships were already there.
I got ya-you are looking for 1 from 1502?-i guess phips would have been old & dead by then?
Bobadilla
Sr. Member
It is perfectly possible that a survivor from Concepcion gave her location to William Phipps. Concepcion went down in 1641 and the first expedition of Pipps took place in 1683 (the second one in 1686). I have been looking for "El Dorado", flagship of Francisco Bobadilla lost on the 5th of June, 1502. William Phipps was born 150 years later.... Silver Bank is full of wrecks from all periods, it is extremely treasurous part, but Bobadilla fleet, around 30 ships, could no way reach this part of the ocean. They were all lost on the southern part of Hispaniola Island, so the wreck Phipps found there could not be from this fleet.
Regards,
Lubos
Regards,
Lubos
Thanks VOC and sorry for the delay in replying (just been to the D-Day beaches and v. interesting they were too)
I am familiar with Peter Earle's books and have tried to contact him with no luck so far.
Anyway, will keep trying.
Kind Rgds
Peter K
Ps without trying to change the subject of this thread; mention of the wreck of the QM reminds me that once again a missing ship's log would help enourmously-in this case that of the QM itself. So, where is the log? Personally I think it's with the original "French passes" not produced at Kidd's trial but copies of which were found by Ralph Paine I believe -as mentioned earlier in this thread by Old Bookaroo. Where these original papers and log ended up I've got no idea. I could guess but whether I'm right or whether they have survived til today I really don't know.
I am familiar with Peter Earle's books and have tried to contact him with no luck so far.
Anyway, will keep trying.
Kind Rgds
Peter K
Ps without trying to change the subject of this thread; mention of the wreck of the QM reminds me that once again a missing ship's log would help enourmously-in this case that of the QM itself. So, where is the log? Personally I think it's with the original "French passes" not produced at Kidd's trial but copies of which were found by Ralph Paine I believe -as mentioned earlier in this thread by Old Bookaroo. Where these original papers and log ended up I've got no idea. I could guess but whether I'm right or whether they have survived til today I really don't know.
VOC
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"Thanks VOC and sorry for the delay in replying (just been to the D-Day beaches and v. interesting they were too)"
Were you over there as part of Operation Gooesberry ?
Were you over there as part of Operation Gooesberry ?
RELICDUDE07
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Thanks Bobadilla for clearing up the mix up...They had a lot of mix ups with where they were, or where they wanted the king & queen to think they were-azores /gulf of arrows - indias.I think a lot had to do with them breaking the treaty & the huge slave market..I wouldn't rule out the area Ted Falcon found with artifacts from the right time period on the ship ,the other 1 could be in the same area....
Hello all,
I need to visit the British Library on Thursday and while I'm there I'll read the surviving Phips' journal from his successful expedition to the Silver Bank and see if he mentions anything else of interest.
If anyone wants anything else read while I'm there (within reason!) please let me know.
Kind Rgds
Peter K
I need to visit the British Library on Thursday and while I'm there I'll read the surviving Phips' journal from his successful expedition to the Silver Bank and see if he mentions anything else of interest.
If anyone wants anything else read while I'm there (within reason!) please let me know.
Kind Rgds
Peter K
Bobadilla
Sr. Member
Peter,
I sent you PM.
Regards,
Lobo
I sent you PM.
Regards,
Lobo
Old Bookaroo
Silver Member
Peter K:
I believe Ralph Paine found the original French passes. I've never read anything about copies.
If the British government was interested in hiding this important evidence (and, obviously, it was) it wouldn't have made sense to make any copies.
Good luck to all,
~The Old Bookaroo
I believe Ralph Paine found the original French passes. I've never read anything about copies.
If the British government was interested in hiding this important evidence (and, obviously, it was) it wouldn't have made sense to make any copies.
Good luck to all,
~The Old Bookaroo
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