Sluice Laws.

[Skiddum]

So I have a question. I have been having some trouble with the local ranger station. because of the uinta national forest service. they say that only pans are leagal here. that river sluicing and a hand Dredge is illegal in the hole state. when I asked about highbanking not being a river sluice and argued argued that it wasnt illegal at all based on the gold a fish pamphlet so the lady sent me to the water right division. now the guy there basically told me what I already new. that highbanking I'd need a permit for and that and anything else Machanical would need a permit. but river sluicing is not illegal here and neither is the hand dredge for that matter as long as there was no motor other than muscle power.

so I called the ranger station back to let them know what I'd found out. and was hung up on. so to cover myself I called the BLM. again they told me the same thing. except the dredge part any dredge regardless would need a permit. so I got 1 just to cover myself. called the ranger station again and got the same response. now don't get me wrong I wasn't throwing it in there face like haha I'm write your wrong kinda thing. I've been respectful in trying to figure out this hole conundrum. just a simple fact finding quest. so I got pissed and called the us national ranger directors office here. the lady there was really nice and helpful. she explained that it could depend on water sheds, fish migration, city and private property stuff of this. she told me same thing about sluicing and dredging. that if I was in the limits and regulations set by the gold and fish standard then I was perfectly able to use a sluice and dredge. even there stupid website is messed up. utah FS USDA Cache and uinta national forest website. one part says to fallow the gold and fish pamphlet unless your doing a major operation then you'd need a permit for mineral prospecting. but so long as you fallow the recreational panning and prospecting laws your fine. then another part of the same website says you can only use a pan and shovel. but anyway I bought a Bazooka gold trap. now based on there own definition of a sluice is says
gold and fish pamphlet definition.
Sluice
a trough equipped with riffles across its bottom witch you use collect gold and other minerals with the use of flowing water.
other definitions

sluice box definition
A long, inclined trough or launder with riffles in the bottom that provide a lodging place for heavy minerals in ore concentration

sluice box
noun
:a single section usu. about 12 feet long of a gold-mining sluice


Webster dictionary
gold sluice
Also called sluice box. Mining. a long, sloping trough or the like, with grooves on the bottom, into which water is directed to separate gold from gravel or sand. verb (used with object), sluiced, sluicing.

so my question is is the Bazooka gold trap even a sluice at all by there rules and what should I do with this. I'm not sure weather it's legal or not. because of everything.I've got 3 different organizations saying the same thing and one small part of the same organization saying it's not legal.

honestly it appears to me that the government does know what the other hand is doing even when they see it and hear it. I gave them names they could call emails and everything else and always got the same response. you know if they'd have given me a ligiment answer like it's to protect something like fish or river sheds or anything I'd happily let it go. but there ignorance to me is unacceptable. if they don't know the laws and are just making crap up based on one part of a website that doesn't give any ligiment reason other than you cant. and the a different part of the same website says you can and neither are spacific or give any areas that are or are not restricted to me it sounds as if someone is making up there own rules and that's not acceptable to me. if 1 ranger sees the one website then hill go by the first 1 he sees. if he/she reads the one that says you can't then that's the one they'll fallow. if the read the one that says you can then they'll fallow that 1. now if they see both then they can use with depending on there attitude and pretty much make up there own law based on mood and if they like the person or not and that's not right to me

 

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[cudamark]

Welcome to Tnet! You certainly know how to jump in with both feet on your first post! I think you already figured out that asking bureaucrats anything is a waste of time. Look up the rules governing that particular area yourself. If it's ambiguous, I'd join GPAA or similar prospecting club and see what they know about the subject.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Skiddum there are laws pertaining to prospecting in the National Forests... but they don't really apply to "recreational" or "hobby" prospecting.

There are laws that protect miners and prospectors but you have to follow the procedures... there have been many battles between the USFS and the mining community.

Mining claims dot several National Forests in the West and most prospecting forums have more than a few USFS horror stories.

Two very important rules here...

1. Never give the impression or specifically claim your activity is recreational... the laws do not protect hobbyists.

2. See rule number one.

Two members of this forum Clay Diggins and Bejay are well versed in mining law, I suggest you discuss this issue with either of them.

Here is some info to get you started on the right path...

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrB...tgip.html/RK=0/RS=wAEAst3Z5JGJa9l4GvxbUFK87zM-

Minerals management of National Forest System lands requires interagency coordination and co-operation. Although the Forest Service is responsible for the management of surface resources of National Forest System lands, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in the Department of the Interior is primarily responsible for management of government-owned minerals. Since it is impossible to separate mineral operations from surface management, the agencies have developed cooperative procedures to accommodate their respective responsibilities.

Authority for Mineral Activities Mining and related activities on National Forest System lands are governed by specific laws that identify procedures and conditions under which prospecting, exploration, and development of minerals can be carried out.

The General Mining Law of 1872.

The Mining Law of 1872, as amended, governs the prospecting for and the appropriation of metallic and most nonmetallic minerals on the 140 million acres of National Forest set up by proclamation from the public domain. Under the 1872 law, and its principal amendment of July 23, 1955, qualified prospectors may search for mineral deposits on these “public domain” lands. A prospector, upon discovering a valuable mineral deposit, may locate a mining claim. Recording that claim in the local courthouse and with the appropriate BLM State Office affords protection from subsequent locators. A mining claimant is entitled to reasonable access to the claim for further prospecting, mining or necessary related activities, subject to other laws and applicable regulations. After meeting rather rigorous specific requirements of law, including a confirmation of the discovery of a valuable mineral deposit, a claimant may obtain legal title (patent)2 to the surface and mineral rights on the claim. A patent application must be filed with the appropriate State Office of BLM. On National Forest lands, the Forest Service will conduct a mineral examination to determine if a valuable deposit has been found and, accordingly, recommend whether or not a patent should be granted. The Department of the Interior will consider the Forest Service’s mineral report, plus information provided by the claimant, and determine whether a patent should be issued. If a patent is granted, legal title is conveyed, and thereafter, the Forest Service has no authority over the lands conveyed.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations[h=2]§228.4 Plan of operations—notice of intent—requirements.[/h](a) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a notice of intent to operate is required from any person proposing to conduct operations which might cause significant disturbance of surface resources. Such notice of intent to operate shall be submitted to the District Ranger having jurisdiction over the area in which the operations will be conducted. Each notice of intent to operate shall provide information sufficient to identify the area involved, the nature of the proposed operations, the route of access to the area of operations, and the method of transport.
(1) A notice of intent to operate is not required for:
(i) Operations which will be limited to the use of vehicles on existing public roads or roads used and maintained for National Forest System purposes;
(ii) Prospecting and sampling which will not cause significant surface resource disturbance and will not involve removal of more than a reasonable amount of mineral deposit for analysis and study which generally might include searching for and occasionally removing small mineral samples or specimens, gold panning, metal detecting, non-motorized hand sluicing, using battery operated dry washers, and collecting of mineral specimens using hand tools;

 

[Nugs Bunny]

There is plenty of information at this link eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations They are for prospecting and mining in the National Forests.

These regulations apply to operations hereafter conducted under the United States mining laws of May 10, 1872, as amended (30 U.S.C. 22 et seq.), as they affect surface resources on all National Forest System lands under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of Agriculture to which such laws are applicable: Provided, however, That any area of National Forest lands covered by a special Act of Congress (16 U.S.C. 482a-482q) is subject to the provisions of this part and the provisions of the special act, and in the case of conflict the provisions of the special act shall apply.

 

[kayakpat]

I believe the Bazooka is classified as a sluice , it fits all definitions and is non motorized and serves the same purpose as the standard sluice just like the plastic sluices that doesn't have carpet.

 

[Skiddum]

thanks glad to be here. figured b the best way to get involved is jump in with both feet. and thanks for all th advice. so it seams I need to get rid of this recreational idea. don't do it as a hobby but as an actual prospector. witch can still be done as a hobby just they authorities don't need to know that. at least if I'm understanding you correctly. is there any special things I need to do to be a qualified prospector. or do I just the permits. if this be the case Im sure I can get them. I figured the bazooka gold trap was considered a sluice. just the way it's defined is what got me curious. cause it has no riffles or anything for the minerals and ore can sit under was the part that caught my eye. I was in college for paralegal studies, from therected I was gonna be lawyer. but after my second year and doing the internship I relised that I wanted a life with my family. not to be in my study all day and night when I was home. the lawyers I worked for 1 had a son who was in a ivy league med school. but he bearly new him at all. and he hated himself for it. but anyway it taught me many things on laws. if there not spacific then it's up for interpretation. many many people have been convicted over someone's interpretation and even more have gotten off because the lawyers could twist it there own way. but anyway. so Back to thread. Im planning on joining the both of the Prospecting organizations around utah. they have claims and all. I can't wait for spring either when they open up so we can go down and play in the dirt. also anyone have the hogpan. just cause I can see some very good uses coming out of it where I'm at. places where rivers are slim and only small ponds are available. I'm all about fast and light. and I can see where it would come in handy. especially as quick at it works. I have a turbo pan.they work pretty well just doesn't grab the smaller stuff from around here. it's around 50 to 100 mesh. and I've senjoyed the gold hog in action in person. I dropped my Keene A51A in the river below him. couldn't figure out what he was doing with it. had no idea. he came up to see my sluice and laughed at me. just cause I'm feeding it with a jobe green scoop. and it's almost 2 much for the little guy. he dumped almost half his bucket in his hog pan and went through it in a matter of seconds and didn't loose a spec of gold at all. after that I've been all about the gold trap. the bazooka. I've ordered the 24 inch sniper this week and will be buying 2 Minis for me and my wife. just so she has something. we started this together and she's been getting upset because she really hasn't been able to do anything. she pans here and there but that's it. I figured getting her one of these for her will make her happy. gotta get her some water boots to. and I can't wait for her to get it. I want to watch as she buries my friends A52 with her tailings. he's on of these guys that think everyone is against him and wants to maliciously hurt him or mess with him. his car got side swiped and I seriously watched him tell a cop that this guy had done it on purpose. that he was jealous of his car. they had never talked ever. he said he'd seen him driving and new he was jealous. his car wasn't anything special. piece of crap honestly. he thought just cause it had a turbo and had 250 hp it was so fast. it was just crap. dented and seriously needed a paint job. but anyway he seriously told me that the bazooka was crap and it didn't work. I asked him if he'd ever seen it in action. he said Know but neither have you. your and idiot. they paid all these people to say these things. its called advertising. I laughed at that 1. I told him that Todd and the bazooka gold trap company is a small business. and there's no way they could pay everyone. I looked up the bazooka gold trap reviews on Google. and it showed up on 10+ different sites of people talking about these things. many claim they'll never use any other sluice. that theyve sold all there other sluices. and hundreds of videos on YouTube and so on. literally 10 of thousands of post all of the world different people from all over talking about these. and asked him how a small company could afford to pay all these people. he laughed at me. so I told him it's simple they don't have to cause the Bazooka talks for itself like any good product. So once my wifes little 16 inch mini gets here I'll watch as she sets up faster, fills and empties her bucket faster. cleans out more often, and prospects more area all before he's done classifing and setting up his A52. and still finds more than he does. can't wait cause by the time it's over I bet he gives me the money to buy it instead of me paying for 1 for him and letting him pay me back like I had planned

sorry rambling
I just can't wait to prove him wrong. Todd has been straight up with me since I bought the sniper. he told.me how long it would take and that he'd even start making the other 3 minis just because I gave him the heads up.

so it seams that the best thing to do is get all the permits for mineral prospecting and don't let these guys know it's a hobby.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Small scale is the word to use... drop the word hobby altogether West of the Mississippi.

I don't think you need a water permit to run a hand sluice, but I'm not 100% sure.

Keep in mind there can be areas not open to mineral entry or somebody else's mining claim.

I suggest joining a local club, and trying some of their claims.

Issues with the USFS can be troublesome with those who know the mining law in and out.

Learn how to identify legal mining claims and go prospect BLM land, there are many other less problematic places to locate gold.

Don't waste time arguing what is legal in the whole state with a Ranger, keep it site specific and only to what applies.

Your going to have the research the laws yourself... Uinta National Forest is under the jurisdiction of the USFS, there should be regulations somewhere for prospecting in Uinta.

 

[cudamark]

See Nugs, we CAN actually agree on something!

 

[Skiddum]

yep there is a hole grip of them I found out. the site that the ranger was using that says only panning is legal I had to reread. further down it says Within the Chattahoochee-Oconee National Forests. it has Nothing to do with the uinta, cache and Wasatch national forest. I'm printing out all of them the maps of the water sheds and what fish are in what rivers, what area are open and closed. like the green and Colorado River in utah. what areas spacifically are open and closed. and all the laws that are associated with (small scale) mining and prospecting plus the laws and regulations pertaining to what agency and land I'm on. and both the Web pages. the one the ranger said witch has nothing to do with utah. and the one the ranger director office told me to use. it has all the laws regarding the HPA permits and the small scale prospecting. all the maps , laws and the gold and fish pamphlet should cover me pretty well. and at the back I'll have all the names, emails, phone numbers and what government agencies there from. pretty much be a bible of what can and can't be done in utah. so no matter what area I'm on I'll be able to see and understand what I'm legally able to do regarding each of them.
also planning on joining up with the 2 Prospecting organizations here in utah. theres the one for southern and one for the northern part. 25 bucks a year isn't bad at all. and it'll alow me and my wife to go out and see and work the claim they have set up.
I'm glad my wife likes the outsdoors and doing stuff like this. otherwise it'd be a non stop fight cause she'd never let me buy the stuff I'm getting and do what I'm doing. she's actually the one that found that part about gold panning and it not being in this area.

 

[stephen583]

One thing you'll soon learn, is these USFS Park Rangers and BLM Officers may wear federal and state badges, but essentially they are just "locals" who look at the national and state land they are charged with protecting as their own "back yards", which can make excursions even on public land quite difficult, especially if you have an "out of state" driver's license. They'll use every dot and tittle of the law to ensure your encroachment on their local resources is minimal, and your stay is as brief as possible.

One BLM officer in Salida, Colorado stopped by my tent camp on the Arizona River twice a day. On one occasion, he searched my tent and chided me for keeping a loaded rifle around, it was a .50 caliber Hawkins Black Powder Rifle, (wouldn't do much good in an emergency if it weren't loaded I explained). For safety I kept the firing caps off the hammer and stored away. Even though I showed him an elk carcass nearby that was left on the river by a brown bear, he insisted there were no bears in the area. Before he left, he claimed the empty coke can on the ground in front my tent constituted littering and my camp had better be spotless when he returned an hour later.

I left that camp ground early and moved about 15 miles down the road. He arrived there after about four days and informed me the law required I displace 30 miles after a 14 day stay on BLM land. I pointed out to him I had only stayed 7 days at the Salida camp grounds, and I thought he was going to have an apoplectic fit ! He screamed, "You better damn well be gone in three days then hadn't you" !!!

To this day, I don't know what I did to set this guy off.. except I had a Texas driver's license.

 

[Skiddum]

You guys ever set those big mutts people pick up from the shelter and don't do any real training or anything. But anytime you get near there fence there barking and growling and trying to act mean. And as soon as you raise your voice they run with there tail tucked and look at you from the corner of the house. That's what most these guys are. Big land muts. And as soon as you show a little teeth get a little loud, they'll run and call the sheriff. At least in my experience the sheriff's are easier to deal with cause they really don't wanna be they're. They have real criminals to deal with than someone playing in the water

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[audigger53]

One thing you'll soon learn, is these USFS Park Rangers and BLM Officers may wear federal and state badges, but essentially they are just "locals" who look at the national and state land they are charged with protecting as their own "back yards", which can make excursions even on public land quite difficult, especially if you have an "out of state" driver's license. They'll use every dot and tittle of the law to ensure your encroachment on their local resources is minimal, and your stay is as brief as possible.

One BLM officer in Salida, Colorado stopped by my tent camp on the Arizona River twice a day. On one occasion, he searched my tent and chided me for keeping a loaded rifle around, it was a .50 caliber Hawkins Black Powder Rifle, (wouldn't do much good in an emergency if it weren't loaded I explained). For safety I kept the firing caps off the hammer and stored away. Even though I showed him an elk carcass nearby that was left on the river by a brown bear, he insisted there were no bears in the area. Before he left, he claimed the empty coke can on the ground in front my tent constituted littering and my camp had better be spotless when he returned an hour later.

I left that camp ground early and moved about 15 miles down the road. He arrived there after about four days and informed me the law required I displace 30 miles after a 14 day stay on BLM land. I pointed out to him I had only stayed 7 days at the Salida camp grounds, and I thought he was going to have an apoplectic fit ! He screamed, "You better damn well be gone in three days then hadn't you" !!!

To this day, I don't know what I did to set this guy off.. except I had a Texas driver's license.

If you are on USNF land and NOT a Recreational Area or Camp Ground, there is no "14 Day Limit" IF you are prospecting. Keeping the area clean and safe is just being a good camper. They do want to protect it from anyone as then they don't have to go out in the wilds. Just my opinion. National Forest NOT National Parks. National Forest you can go anywhere. For Wilderness areas, Foot or Horse/Mule. You use to be able to pay a local Rancher and be "Packed in".

 

[fmrUSMC_0844]

I sluice in the Uinta National Forest up American Fork Canyon on almost a weekly basis. The rangers have stopped me on more than 1 occasion to see what I was up to. They ask If I read the rules, and tell me no digging in the bank. Then they say good luck!! Sluicing is classified under "Recreational Panning" and is allowed all year long. That came from the mouth of the National Forest big wig that came to our prospecting club meeting.

No permit is needed for sluicing. Recreational Dredging requires a permit.