Stupid Meters & tones!

[Michigan Badger]

Stupid Meters & tones!

How much do you love you detector's target ID features? Enough to pass up on a real diamond ring or deep valuable coin?

Did you know both visual and audio target ID features were made to work in air but not in the ground?

Simply recreate a real coin hunting situation in your coin garden and see what readings you get. Plant coins next to nails and foil (real life stuff) and bury silver at 6 inches or more.

Now try that "awesome" target ID machine on those puppies and see what it tells you.

I've been doing tests like this over the last few months and buying and selling detectors left and right. My conclusion is I've bought my last target ID gimmick. I may buy a machine that has target ID features but I won't buy it for those features. I'll buy it for depth and the fact it will work with those features turned off.

Facts:

Many targets read the exact opposite in the ground that they read in the air.

Deep dimes (over 5 inches) in mineralized soil often read and sound as pulltabs/foil/nickels/pennies or even as iron at extreme depths.

The tone machines are even worse. If you're using a tone machine, make sure you dig all IRON signals that are small in size and offer a tight signal. These are often deep old coins.

Many deep Indian cents read very much like foil.

SUM: Don't trust those stupid meters or tones! If possible dig everything that produces a tight small signal good from all directions.

You're welcome! Name your first seated dime after me.

 

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[rdj]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Testing in my coin garden (coins buried 8 yrs.) shows the same results as you're getting. I have found that the tones are more reliable than the numerical readout. At 4 and 5" the numbers are completely unusable. As you said, a small, tight ,signal is the most reliable indicator of a good target.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

This is a great post. I've used old Compass machines, the Eagle Spectrum and XLT, the Whites Classic 5, Fishers, a Tesoro uMax, and the Ace 250 for hunts. I agree 100%. I would much rather hear everything and decide myself whether or not to dig a target than to have a machine's tones, TID numbers, or (even worse) notch discrimination decide that for me.

Analog with no meter--that's the only way I roll.


Regards,

Buckleboy

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

old school tone type machines -- thats what I learned on when I first started late 70's early 80's -- iron, foil and silver and gold -- none of the sounded the same to me -- my pop was a whiz -- he had great "ears" as I call it -- he learned the machines "language" so to speak -- he said to me "son listen carefully its trying hard to tell you something --so learn what its saying" -- by using a combo of using tone and VDI together you can greatly cut down on junk digging -- if you after gold you WILL dig up the pull tabs is his other famous sayings to me --- seems that other than a few bells and whistle type things that metal detectors frankly are stalled in the mid 80's time frame -- oh sure they got "led type displays" and VDI numbers and new "blocks of sound" rather than the static type tone of old (heck basically their just showing on the screen what the machines have been doing inside of them since the mid 80's -- giving a value to the signal now its just a VDI number or a bell chime type tone (ace 250) , which is not what
would call a great leap forward -- baby steps really is more like it) but as far as honestly being able to say on a steady basis --- thats a gold ring and thats a pulltab -- nope---you would think 20 to 30 years would have made it possible by now --- Ivan

 

[hsjrev]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

The ID meters on both my Ace 250 and Compass Gold Scanner are accurate on coins down to 5" in my soil. If it's much deeper than that, the Ace won't hit on it anyway or the depth gauge will be maxed out, which is a good indication to dig the lower ID's. On deep coins the Gold Scanner will give a good tone with the disc up past foil but the meter won't move at all. My experience with the Gold Scanner is that it's meter either tells the truth or it doesn't say anything. Now the Fisher F2 meter was very erratic below 3" on silver and copper but it seems to work better on nickels and gold down to 4+".

 

[erikk]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I have been playing with a notch setting on my F-75. and have nickels notched in. I have found that if it reads 29-30 it is a nickel 99.9% of the time and I have dug them from a couple of inches to 7-8-they still read the same. In 2 outings of 1 1/2 & 2 hrs I dug 29 nickles along with $10.00 in various other clad coins

 

[doctorbb]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

My Classic III will talk to me all day. And I know what she's saying. My Discovery 2000 is pretty darn acurate with tone I.D. also. I wouldn't know a VDI number if I saw one.

 

[DirtDiggerDaveinMD]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I can't say that I'm having the problems that you are describing. My machine has been pretty accurate so far.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

The following is a quote from a Metal Detector Review site.

This quote helps a little in making my point. It features a single tone Tesoro Bandido 2 uMax. I didn't post this here to push Tesoro but to show how these programs and meters can be far off.

"In my test garden I have a silver quarter buried exactly 1 inch away from an old square nail at a depth of 5". On the surface I scraped just a bit of dirt away and placed a piece of foil about the size of a pencil eraser on the opposite side of the nail. I get a broken (but repeatable) response east and west but a smooth unbroken response north to south. My buddy has a top-o-the-line microprocessor 1000$ machine. I ask him to I.D. my nail-quarter-foil test garden. After a couple of swings and two different programs he declared it’s an iron object. I then scraped the surface with my boot (secretly removing the foil) and ask him to try again. He X'd the target from all directions and said "pull-tab at 5"". A graphic display that the Tesoros discrimination circuit, in my opinion, is heads above the rest. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes in the field, I'll get an iffy signal, I’ll go to all-metal to see if it’s by itself, then call him over to I.D. it. But tell me where do you find treasure where there's no trash? Not very often, I think we'll all agree on this one. With the Ban. M.M.II, I can tell you 95% of the time, bottle caps, foil, nickels or small gold rings, zincs or Indian heads, clads, and silver in that order. And with the auto-retune I can get maximum depth and with a preset disc. Level, with a flick of a switch tell if its a trash or treasure. With features such as lightweight, life-time warranty, 1 drop-in 9 volt, 3&quarter turn manual ground balance its all I need to keep my pouch filled. While others are looking at target I.D.s numerical values and depth meters, I'm just looking at well, finds, lots and lots of finds"

 

[TreasurdiggrNY]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I have the Fisher 1280X so I can only go by the sound. I am also new to the hobby and just learning. It is a one tone machine with no numbers or meters. There may only be one tone but there are many "sounds" to learn and that in itself is a task, I could not imagine dealing with meters and numbers. I understand that people use the extra info of meters and numbers to further help tell if the target is good or not but for now I can deal with if it beeps I dig it no matter what.
Glenn

 

[BIG61AL]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I dig almost everything that has a nice signal even if my detector says pull tab. It's usually right but I do find other things that are not pull tabs...even a small silver ring may read as a pull tab.

 

[The Beep Goes On]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I don't disagree...the tone and texture of the sound can give you all the info you need. However, having a graphical display or meter does not mean you have to take it's word for it. Just because it says it is an iron signal at 10" you can use your brain and, if it's a tight, round signal, dig it anyway since it may be a silver coin. Displays and meters do offer additional info that, after 100's of hours with a machine, can provide telltale bits of info that can help. The key is to listen to the tone first and use the display as a reference...and use your brain and knowledge of the machine at the same time. IMHO, the more info the better. Just realize that the display/meter is not to be taken at face value. If I'm hunting a modern sports field where everything is shallow I do use the display since it is accurate...I save a lot of time passing up the zincolns.

HH!
TBGO

 

[GreenMeanie]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I use to have a Tesero golden sabre II and I could tell when I found silver by the warm tone it gave me. It sounded different then the rest of the tones.

 

[bavarianminister]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Badger: I use the target i.d. only as a guide. At least on the Garretts that I have owned - they have been mostly accurate. When digging a coin next to trash the i.d. would normally bounce back and forth from the coin to the trash indicator. I usually dig these if this signal is consistant. My philosophy is very simple. When in doubt - dig it. I also use non metered machines - and believe in very trashy areas - anyone could miss good finds. I have used my 4 inch coil in trashy areas and have had good success with them. They will allow you to snipe a few good finds from the trash. I have never purchased a larger than stock coil until yesterday. Anxiously awaiting it's arrival - I believe it will help in the extra depth needed in the "clean" fields that I detect. Love those bullets and buttons!

Bavarian

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I use to have a Tesero golden sabre II and I could tell when I found silver by the warm tone it gave me. It sounded different then the rest of the tones.

I can tell a similar thing with the Fisher 1266. This may be partially related to the depth of the object, but I am convinced that at one point I could tell the difference between a clad dime and a silver one. It's either those musician's ears, or borderline insanity.

Cheers,


Buckles

 

[bavarianminister]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I use to have a Tesero golden sabre II and I could tell when I found silver by the warm tone it gave me. It sounded different then the rest of the tones.

I can tell a similar thing with the Fisher 1266. This may be partially related to the depth of the object, but I am convinced that at one point I could tell the difference between a clad dime and a silver one. It's either those musician's ears, or borderline insanity.

Cheers,


Buckles
Agreed - it is a warmer tone and not jagged like some coins. Silver rings will produce the same mellow tone.

Bavarian

 

[rmptr]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Very interesting post.

I use Tesoro sabres and a pantera.
I prefer the sabres because of the tone quality.

I have made a trade with a fellow who has a whiz bang machine that he can not figure how to operate, or it is malfunctioning.

Badger has had so much FUN experimenting with recent technology, I'd like to try, too.

I've read everything on the machine I hope to get soon.
By all accounts, it is powerful, difficult to operate, and can easily defeat a quality target.
A proficient user dug a nice ring that he claims he would have ignored going by vdi number.
Never-the-less, I'd like the opportunity to play with bells and whistles!

I took my Little Yeller Feller to a grassy park today, and hunted the meter in coin mode with the penny also notched out and sensitivity at 5. I only checked meter on belltones. (I REALLY dislike the belltone)
Big money is NOT wisely spent on quality headphones for an Ace 250. Tonal nuances do not exist.
All targets were dug less than 3". ID was accurate but 4" depth assured a quarter was a quarter and 6" meant overload and the target was canslaw and I ignored it.
I recovered 4q's, 13d's, 2-5's, 4-1's, and 2 tabs which was a buck an hour for my time.
With recovery of the two nickels and tabs, I feel if a significant sized ring had been there, I most likely would have got it. Most jewelry, being in odd configurations by its very nature, would not have gained my attention with the parameters I had set.

As I had done intentionally, I feel more people are talked OUT of jewelry targets by use of a meter, than it actually helps them find.

I feel my time spent playing with the Little Yeller Feller (and it is fun) has been a distraction, and diminshed my ability to use my sabre as effectively as I once had when using it, only.

My question to the group would be, which detector contains the audio circuitry capable of delivering the widest range of identifiable nuances in tone by the differentiating micro processor?

R M P T R

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I'm glad my thread picked up some traffic. These of this type usually get ignored.

Good comments here but some miss the point a little I think.

The meter readings and tones can cause many to miss good targets. The reason being most good things are masked by trash. Trash fools all audio tone pitch and digital readout machines.

Most dime store tone/meter detectors can be used for shallow clad unmasked down maybe 3 or 4 inches deep (some can't even do this). What I'm talking about is real world hunting for that really old stuff deep down and usually heavily masked by trash. In these situations your meters and usually tones will deceive you.

I will admit the added bells and whistles are fun. I still get a kick out of them myself. In fact, I prefer machines with pitch tones built in. However, I know enough not to let these tones run me.

Those nice small (barely heard) tight and mellow signals (both ways) that drop off when I raise the coil 4 inches are what I'm after at old sites. These old buttons and coins down 8+ inches will often register IRON due to masking trash or at times because one has passed the discrimination depth range.

See, all VLF detectors detect deeper than the tones and meter readings can track. Once one reaches the outer range of the tone/meter field the signals become corrupted. And this corruption is not consistant. Soil mineralization and other factors control it. At one time the tones may be excellent down to 8 inches deep. The next second in different soil it may work right down to 5 inches...then 2 inches...then 7 inches....then 3 inches...etc. The tone/meter signals are limited by the main signal depth. They always lag behind the transmitter's signal. VLF machines are all highly subject to ground conditions and our signals would look like a rollercoaster ride on a bargraph.

In our soil my F-2's tone and meter were corrupted at 4 inches deep on a penny. Some brands such as Minelab are pretty good down to maybe 6-7 inches as long as masking trash is not too heavy. I said "not too heavy"...how many times does that happen in the real world?

How many barely audible tiny smooth repeatable "iron" signals has the reader passed up over the years?

 

[Pepper2004]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Michigan Badger, another good topic. I'm not adding to the thread because I don't know enough about this topic to do so.
But I am reading it trying to learn.

 

[lucky1777]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I agree with you to an extent Badger. I also believe tones and Vdis are useful. I use my Vdi #s when hunting parks and private yards. I might be missing items, but I am not digging 500 holes and not being invited back. When I relic hunt, I rarely use the Vdis, I dig just about everything.