sunken pirate ship found

[Stroover]

I have a question that has no doubt already been asked and answered umpteen times, but since I'm new to these forums I'll ask anyway as I have no clue where to begin looking for an answer. Having done several years of research on a local legend, I have finally found where lies a sunken pirate brig. I have since gotten my advanced open water diver certification, and have just purchased my first diver metal detector. Based on my research, this ship could have had decent loot on board as it was in along a tributary behind a series of barrier islands hiding from the British government. The problem is that I must have an archealogical degree or its equivalent in order to "legally" snoop around the site, as it were. Though I am prepared to pay the fine if caught, my question is where would be the best bang for my buck when it comes to selling the possible treasure I find? What do, or would you guys do with recovered treasure? Are there any bulk-buying collectors out there? There is no treasure trove law here, and you get something like 10% of what the government decides is it's value. After 400+ years underwater, there isn't much left of the wooden structure except for the bigger beams for the frame, some metal componants, and lots of ballast (where I want to start looking with my metal detector.)

 

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[Darren in NC]

If you want to go to jail, then sell it for its antiquity value. Sooner or later, you will be held accountable for its origin. No one likes to hear that, but we live in a small world today (especially collectors of antiquity) and there's not much getting around it.

Otherwise, you'd have to melt it down and sell it to a refinery or large jeweler. Not a good idea, either. Just stick with what most honest thunters do and go through the proper channels.

 

[Cablava]

Welcome to the forum.

Outside of the legalities, which are formidable in the US, you need to establish a few things.

Firstly have you actually touched the ballast pile of the ship, if so how are you sure it is the brig you have researched. There are many ships laying along the West coast so you would need to find something to prove provenance. Once you find something then your troubles start.

Secondly it is difficult to work a ship on your own, How are you going to move a 1 ton cannon, the debris field could be enormous, plus the weather conditions. Tide, Current, etc.

Keeping it a secret is all but impossible these days

Sit down and anylise what you have, look at your options. Alone you cannot achieve much, other than perhaps go to jail or at the least a big fine. There are other ways to make money from the wreck other than plunder it and sell the stuff off at 10 cents on the $

Keep you mouth tightly shut if you have found the ship until you have a plan and have all the necessary paperwork in place. There are many good guys on this web site with experience of the US system ask them what is involved, Read the past posts from these guys they know the score.

Do not pile in and plunder this ship, you will get caught, hell they just took some coins off a guy after many years, probably with the threat of jail if he did not give them up. So be careful what you do.

Incidentally why did the ship sink did was it sunk in a battle, bad weather or was she just unseaworthy and the stripped before sinking by the owner.

Good luck

 

[mariner]

Stroover,

It's some time since I looked at the Canadian rules, and I know there are some tensions between the Federal and Provincial Governments up there on these issues. I seem to remember that the Federal rules say that the Government of the country under whose flag the ship was sailing has the right to claim the wreck, but I do not know how that would apply to a pirate ship, if that is what it turns out to be, but I think that a wreck so far up a river probably comes under the control of the Province. Please do not just loot the site. It's such a great story that it would make a great TV documentary or the like. I wonder what the treasure trove laws are like in that part of Canada. You might well get a very sizeable benefit if there are valuable materials or artifacts at the site, and it has not already been plundered. I suggest you talk to the Provincial Archaeologist in the first place, and make sure you understand all the rules. You do not have to tell him where the wreck is, or even give him any details of the circumstances. He has to tell you the rules. Make sure you find out about treasure trove. Then you might like to talk to a film or TV company. I can give you the name of a TV/Film Producer based in Hollywood, and then there are always series like Clive Cussler's "Sea Hunters". Again, I can give you the contacts, if you are interested.

And while it is true that you will not get a permit to recover a Canadian wreck (or a US wreck, for that matter) without a suitably qualified archaeologist to supervise and direct the work, you can always employ one out of the income and rights you establish for yourself.

Good work, and good luck.

Mariner

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Don?t just go out and plunder the wreck, It?s just the wrong thing to do. And by all means don?t melt down any coins or jewelry; you will be cutting your profit margin way down, and for us privateers most of us can ill afford to throw away profits just to avoid legal paperwork and government red tape. You will be much better off in the long run following the established rules and regulations. Sure, you will get frustrated with the system, and upset with delays. However, that beats having the feds knock on your door some day down the road and taking everything you worked so hard for. Don?t be in a big hurry, that wreck has been sitting on the bottom about 300 years, a couple more years won?t make a big difference.
First, do your homework (research), and try to establish the identity of your wreck. This research will pay for itself when it comes time to setting up the recovery operation. You may very well determine that the wreck was hauling nothing of any real value that would have survived the long stay on the bottom. In that case, dive the wreck with your friends and enjoy the moment and have a cold beer when you get topside.
However, if you determine that the wreck may be of some value from either a financial and, or archeological standpoint then that will change the deal. In this case you want to keep this secret from everyone, and find yourself a good lawyer who specializes in Maritime Law. Not only will he be able to help you establish legal ownership of the wreck, he will (if he is any good), be able to put you in contact with experienced and established reputable salvers to perform the recovery operation for you. I can think of at least one reputable shipwreck salver from Canada that sometimes frequents TreasureNet. PM me if you want his contact information.

Good hunting

Q

 

[Stroover]

An interesting series of events took place since I first posted this:

I have had some very good advice from you folks (some of you pm'ed me), and have taken it to heart. In the process, I DID contact a lawyer: An old childhood friend of mine who, as it turns out (little did I know) has always been interested in this type of thing but has never done anything about it. We're going to do this "project" together, and he's going to take care of all the legalities, INCLUDING writing up a partnership agreement, AND staking a claim on the wreck with the Federal government of Canada. Apparently, since there are no treasure trove acts in this province, as long as a wreck is not on Parks Canada land (in which case only gov't employed archaeologists can get involved), one can simply stake a claim on a wreck and take all they want from it. But don't worry, there will be no "looting" and "melting" of artifacts from us. I am, after all, a historian.

So, new information for any Canadian treasure hunters: Unless you live in Nova Scotia (the only province with a Treasure Trove Act), if you find a wreck which is NOT in Parks Canada waters or on Parks Canada land, you CAN stake a claim with the federal government. If you win your case, you CAN take all it's valuables WITHOUT having to fork anything over to the government. (BUT, there lies the possibility that your claim will be denied, which would then suck.)
WORDS OF CAUTION: I was informed that if a wreck or any kind of historic site is discovered and happens to be on Parks Canada land, then in no way, shape or form is anybody to disturb it. Doing so would result in BIG, HUUUGE problems for the individual if caught. They say it's best to let the government know about it, however, the finder will not be entitled to any kind of finders reward or royalty of any kind, nor can they keep any artifacts whatsoever. So basically, in doing so the gov't is trying to discourage any kind of treasure hunting on gov't land in Canada.

 

[eborac]

well, it's pirate ship. all artifacts on it were stolen so you might as well steal too because the authorities in turn are going to steal from you. lol :-)
seriously, what if there are descendants of those who never received the cargo. a lot of losses have been compensated by insurance but what if that was not the case.
do descendants have any right to claim ? what about the descendants' from whose forebears the treasures were stolen from originally? i am sure that most finders would happily declare a wreck to preserve it's historical value if the authorities offered reasonable reward. a good wreck and the associated publicity can establish marine archaeologists' careers. does a discoverer receive compensation to a similar value ? i am sure if a finder could expect such acknowledgement then a lot less artifacts and history would be lost.

 

[99*]

Hey Stroover, just be careful who watches this site, like the Canadian based "Save our Wrecks" driven by a demented young lady that could be part of the clergy of yester year. Pirates are everywhere, stick close to your lawyer, watch his wife!! Just kidding, have fun. BC is too cold so hats off to anyone chasing sites out there. A nice museum as you drive down your main street selling rich coffees and cakes, souveniers and artifacts (replicas) would go down well, think about how many antique shops are in your town, each could have a display case showing the site with story and materials. Have fun 99* Be legal, and carry that big stick.

 

[Chagy]

Hey Stroover

On your first post you sounded like a Pirate your self, remember we are THrs ahhhh sorry amateur archaeologist not modern pirates, but I am glad to hear that you are doing the right think. As you can see many members of this forum will tell you the right thing to do. Like Wreckdiver1715 said it has been underwater for many years, it can wait a little longer. And you also used the right word "PROJECT" these projects take time. I was ready to go into the water this month, but I will wait until next May to go, Why?? because I have to do the right thing. Learn from the people in this forum, if you put all of us together we are THE BEST team of THrs you will ever find. THIS FORUM ITS A TREASURE IT SELF.

Good luck and happy hunting,

Chagy.................

 

[Stroover]

seriously, what if there are descendants of those who never received the cargo. a lot of losses have been compensated by insurance but what if that was not the case.
do descendants have any right to claim ? what about the descendants' from whose forebears the treasures were stolen from originally? i am sure that most finders would happily declare a wreck to preserve it's historical value if the authorities offered reasonable reward. a good wreck and the associated publicity can establish marine archaeologists' careers. does a discoverer receive compensation to a similar value ? i am sure if a finder could expect such acknowledgement then a lot less artifacts and history would be lost.

I agree with you, eborac. I for one would be just as thrilled to be acknowleged for a find as I would be to find treasure (although the treasure finding thing would be sweeter, no doubt).
As for taking my time, Chagy, don't worry. I've been taking my time. I've been studying, researching, questionning, and snooping around and about the ship since I was 12 , and I'm now 39 (on and off, but moreso and with more amplification in the last couple of years). Only now that I think I am ready to actually work the wreck have I looked into the legalities. It struck me as a downer at first, but now things are looking up.
What most people of the area don't know is that #1 the ship is even there, and #2 this ship is part of their history, and I guess I'm more into develloping that part of the site somehow. 99*, I like your museum and tourism ideas. I had not thought of that. Wreckdiver1715's tv ideas have also really sparked my imagination.
Cablava, thanks for the "advice".
In all actuality, guys, for various reasons I'm not sure of the chance that there be any treasure on her in the conventional sense. Pros: She was in hiding from the British navy therefore her crew were bad boys, thus suggesting they would have had at least one successful raid; After having killed all her crew, the local yocals, who may have never killed anybody before, may have been all panicky and stuff, and have not thought of looking for and taking treasure; and even if they HAD thought of looting her, they may not have known where to look for the Captian's 50% of the booty; there are no poeple bearing the leader's family name who have "old' money. Cons: It's all but an unknown pirate ship as far as the conventional sence goes, thus suggesting her crew were more or less losers with little or no successful lootings; given her the location where she lies, her crew could have already burried their loot along the way (my mothers cousin once found a pot of gold probably 40 years ago about 15 Km from the site futher north up the next river the morning after a storm which had erroded part of the cape, with also a skeleton's arm hanging out of the side of the cape. They've lived "comfortably" ever since); she may not have been hiding, but simply looking to re-supply herself with food and fresh water.

Either way, she's been a thrilling project and whatever comes out of it will at worst be a fun-filled learning experience.

 

[jip6]

I have worked a wreck site in Nova Scotia, Two summers ago. The company I worked for was under contract with the Canadian Government For seven different wrecks. We were up in Cape North, Aspy Bay. Perhaps you know of the wreck, the Auguste? I hope all works out well with you recovery effort. If I can be of any assistance let me know. I look forward to hearing about you project. Good luck. jip6

 

[Stroover]

I have worked a wreck site in Nova Scotia, Two summers ago. The company I worked for was under contract with the Canadian Government For seven different wrecks. We were up in Cape North, Aspy Bay. Perhaps you know of the wreck, the Auguste? I hope all works out well with you recovery effort. If I can be of any assistance let me know. I look forward to hearing about you project. Good luck. jip6

Yep, I've heard about the Auguste. You work for Deep Star? That's not a Canadian company, is it? I thought it was American. Do you have a degree in marine archeaology, or do you work under somebody who does? Now THAT'S a job I could live with!
Our ship is in relatively shallow water (about 10 feet at low tide). It would have been deeper at that spot 400 years ago, but since then the river has shifted somewhat or something. You definitely couldn't moor a ship at that spot today without hitting bottom. The harbour a few hundred yards out is still quite deep, at almost 100 feet along the channel.

 

[jip6]

No I am not an archeologist, a diver who has worked with a bunch of em. The company I was employed with was a group out of New York. The project was always under the company name Auguste Expedition LLC. I dont know the name Dark Star, but for some reason it sounds familar. There was another group working or attempting to work a different area of the same wreck. That made for some interesting encounters out on the water. Most of the crew I worked with were Canadians. That area has got to be some of the best diving I have ever been in. As far as being an archeologist goes I don't know what the Canadian counterparts make but the americans make pretty good money. But if its what you love doing you should go for it. I would love to come back up their and do some more diving, but I have sinced moved my attention to some other project down in the gulf. I will keep checking your post to see how it is going good luck. Talk to you soon. jip6

 

[Dave N Japan]

Find a Buyer in Hong Kong...Those guys know what to do!! Believe me! They will get it out of the country for you too!
You can always catalog it and write a report of what you found and then turn it over on your death bed to the Feds! They may still get you after your dead, Just use a alias at the pearly gates!

 

[Gold_Needle]

Well now Matey,

If you found this and no one knows about its location you could disguise your little trips as fishing trips.

As for a market of the booty ye must be'ware as you will most likely be dealing with pirate type individuals.

You could always say that your great great grandfather left it to you and its been in the family for years. Pre-dates all modern laws.

Watch out for the wacky lady of save our wrecks(hell i didnt know someone did that), she will try to claim it for someone else just to get a pat upon her head like a good little girl...

I think Captain Blood (1938 movie) put it best with, "its the world against us and us against the world...)

Enjoy your wreck.

 

[Peg Leg]

mariner,
He may not be interested but I sure am.
You can send me a PEM and we will talk.
Thanks
Peg Leg

 

[mariner]

Peg Leg,

I don't see anything that indicates lack of interest by Stroover, who started this topic and who thinks he knows where the wreck is.

Mariner

 

[Stroover]

Peg Leg,

I don't see anything that indicates lack of interest by Stroover, who started this topic and who thinks he knows where the wreck is.

Mariner

It's not so much lack of interest, but rather this wreck isn't the pirate ship I've been seeking. It's a ship, but don't know what, and it's on the back burners for now. I've actually found the pirate ship I've been seeking last weekend: it had been burried under a sand dune for 100+ years, and a winter gale caused a tidal surge that erroded the dune, thus exposing my ship in merely a couple feet of water. Though, to the untrained eye it doesn't look like a ship at all: Just a pile of rocks and a bit of debree. There's a thread running about it in "Today's finds" under "1754 bottle found".

 

[tom yerian]

well, it's pirate ship. all artifacts on it were stolen so you might as well steal too because the authorities in turn are going to steal from you. lol :-)
seriously, what if there are descendants of those who never received the cargo. a lot of losses have been compensated by insurance but what if that was not the case.
do descendants have any right to claim ? what about the descendants' from whose forebears the treasures were stolen from originally? i am sure that most finders would happily declare a wreck to preserve it's historical value if the authorities offered reasonable reward. a good wreck and the associated publicity can establish marine archaeologists' careers. does a discoverer receive compensation to a similar value ? i am sure if a finder could expect such acknowledgement then a lot less artifacts and history would be lost.

...I AM SORRY GUYS, BUT I HAVE TO AGREE, THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL EVER PROFIT IN YOUR LIFETIME,IS TOM STEAL IT!! tHE WAY THE LAWS ARE SET UP IT WILL TAKE YOU NEARLY A LIFE TIME AND A FORTUNE TO END UP LOSING IT ANYWAY. BE CAREFUL, TAKE WHAT YOU FIND AND BE QUIET ABOUT IT!...CAPT. TOM

 

[Darren in NC]

Hello Tom,

Anyone that has known me for very long on this forum knows I hate government waste and the top-heavy bureaucracy inherent within. I also despise creating laws that benefit the entity called "the state" with no regards for the people who actually are the state. I also despise it when archies refuse to collaborate with treasure hunters.

Having said that, I can't be in agreement with your recent posts encouraging everyone to steal artifacts that are in state waters. Like it or not, it is simply wrong to do so...not to mention your loved ones wouldn't benefit too much if you ended up in jail. Besides, if you would steal from them, why wouldn't I wonder if you would ever steal from me? I could go on and on about the ethics of diving on wrecks, but just know that our hobby (or the salvage industry itself) will be destroyed by guys who think like you. It will only become more difficult. I don't know how most feel on this forum, but I would humbly ask that you please refrain from promoting illegal hunting.

Respectfully,
Darren