Try again...Looks like bar shot but dont think it is

[stranger]

Gonna try this again as I posted this a few years ago but never got a definitive answer.

My dad found this in one our fields about 30 years ago, this is Central Illinois corn and soybean country. We thought it was a part off of an old steam engine or something but no one seems to know. It looks like cannon balls but the distance of the bar seems way to short to be bar shot. They are about 4.5" in diameter and weigh approx. 17# total. There is a visible case seam on one of the spheres but no specific wear pattern which would suggest that they were rolled. There were obviously no naval battles near or any civil war battles nearby, only small confrontations with the native Americans as far as I'm aware of.

To me, the most logical suggestion is some sort of crusher balls (insert joke here...lol) used in mining (limestone?). There is no visible signs of pattern wear. There are limestone mines about 30 miles north of this location.

I would really like to find out what they are...been driving me nuts for over 20 years...lol



rangerboats2005@yahoo.com

 

[nhbenz]

Wow, that was quite a while back, yet still looked so familiar.
I do hope some new insight can be shed on it. There certainly are more folks here now.
I'm only putting a link to the 2006 posting in hopes that it will be read and reduce redundant wrong directions:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/22106-large-spheres-what-they.html

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

It is definitely not a Bar-Shot artillery projectile, because (among other defining characteristics) the bar on those projectiles was much longer than we see on your object.

I notice that the bar on yours seems to go into a "stepped" hole. That suggests the two balls might be 12-Pounder caliber Bormann-fuzed roundshells whose fuse is absent... and somebody decided to connect them by jamming (or welding, or cementing) them onto an iron bar. There is no military purpose for doing that. (I've seen stranger things done to artillery projectiles by civilians who seem to have been just monkeying around.)

To determine whether or not the two balls are fuzeless Bormann roundshells, we'll need you to make super-precise measurements of their diameter (such as, 4.52-inches), using a caliper or a Diameter-Tape. Also need precise measurement of the object's total weight (such as, 18 pounds 6 ounces). Please use a Postal Shipping scale, because household bathroom weighing-scales are notoriously inaccurate.

The top of a Bormann fuzehole typically measures 1.55-to-1.6-inches in diameter.

Here's a photo to show you the "stepped" fuzehole of Bormann-fuzed roundshells. Note the screw-threading on the walls of the large hole and small hole.

Please note, at this point I'm not declaring that's what your two-iron-balls-on-a-bar object is. I'm just saying it LOOKS like it MIGHT be. For certainty about whether it is or isn't, please provide the precise diameter and weight information I've requested. Also, check the hole in the balls to see whether it is what you see in the photo - or not.

Edit-update:
I read through every post in the three pages of the 2006 discussion of the object. I see that the poster name SomeGuy thinks the same thing (in reply #118) that I do... except, your report of the weight at that time (about 20 pounds) and now saying about 17 pounds excludes them from being Case-Shot roundshells (which have lead antipersonnel balls in them). I think the object is two Common-Shells, which had only gunpowder in them, and thus weigh a couple of pounds less than12-Pounder caliber Case-Shot roundshells.

 

[confederate83]

How are the held together are they wedged or welded?

 

[stranger]

Thanks for the replies thus far, I have some additional information based on the requests by posters.

The exact weight is 15.98# (certified digital scale)

The diameter is 4.5" (used calipers and transferred to tape so not completely accurate)

The diameter of "hole" is 1 5/8"

The bar seems to be welded to the spheres

The hole looks similar to the posted picture, and while difficult to positively tell, one small section seems to have threads present. It's just a 1/4" section and I'm far from positive that it is indeed threads but appears as though it could be. They were severely rusted and there is still a lot of rust buildup in the "holes".

I will try to get an exact diameter measurement of the holes and the spheres themselves this weekend.

Thanks

 

[stranger]

Additionally, the rod is exactly 1" in diameter and I have attached a photo of the hole where you can somewhat pick out threads.

The deepest I can measure down in the hole for depth is 1/2" but there is rust buildup in most areas as well as what appears to be weld.

 

[gldnbrew]

Just a thought, the centrifugal weights on a steam motor governor. Not sure how they work, but the weights spin out and it controls the speed. The term "Balls to the Wall" I believe came from this type of governor.

 

[confederate83]

Guess it could be a couple of twelve pound bormanns the diameter is close and so is the weight it says with the sabbot should weigh eight lbs seven ounces per ball with a caliber of 4.62 inch if i am reading correctly at http://www.CivilWarArtillery.com/ but its still not exact CBG will know for sure

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Stranger, as my posting name implies, pre-1900 artillery projectiles are my specialty area of relic-study. (See the "About me" section in my TreasureNet profile.) The additional precise size-&-weight measurements you've now provided prove that the balls are 1850s-to-70s US Bormann-fuzed 12-Pounder caliber Case-Shot roundshells. Yours are missing the Bormann timefuze, the fuze's underplug, and the lead antipersonnel-balls which were inside of Case-Shot shells when they were manufactured. Yours were obsolete civil war era explosive cannonballs which were "salvaged" and converted to other usage. They were "de-militarized" by removing the fuze and gunpowder, and the lead antipersonnel balls in them were removed to re-use the lead.

In my previous reply I mentioned the importance of precise measuring and weighing for correctly identifying them.
Size-measurements:
A 12-Pounder caliber cannonball's diameter was 4.52-inches... which matches yours within a couple of 1/100th-inch. The Bormannn fuze's "stepped" fuzehole was 1.55-to-1.6-inches wide. You've reported that the "main" hole in yours is 1-&-5/8-inches, which translates to 1.62-inches... again, only .02 difference from a typical Bormann fuzehole. The "main" Bormann fuzehole was 1/2-inch deep, and that matches your report. The secondary hole in the "stepped" Bormann fuzehole was typically 1-inch wide, which also matches your report.

Weight-measurements:
You say your two-balls-on-a-bar object weighs precisely 15.98 pounds.
According to the US 1861 Ordnance Manual:
A 12-Pounder Case-Shot loaded with lead antipersonnel balls weighed between 10.5 and 11 pounds.
A 12-Pounder Case-Shot "empty" (without the lead balls, powder, and fuze) weighed 6.22 pounds.
A 12-Pounder Common-Shell weighed 8.34 pounds.
So, because your two fuzeless Bormann-fuzed shells plus the bar weigh a bit less than 16 pounds, they cannot be either Common-Shells (8.34 pounds each) or "loaded" Case-Shot shells (10.5-to-11 pounds each.) They have to be 12-Pounder Case-Shot shells which have been emptied as completely as the salvager could manage to do. (The lead antipersonnel balls were "cemented" inside the shells by an asphalt/tar matrix, so although the salvager surely tried to dig out all of the lead balls he could, he couldn't remove absolutely everything from inside your two roundshells.)

So, combining the weight of the two mostly-emptied Case-Shot shells plus the weight of the iron bar would approximately equal the 15.98 pounds you say the object weighs.

Sidenote: In the Colonial era through the Civil War era, a 12-Pounder caliber cannon's bore diameter was 4.62-inches. But because that was a muzzle-loading cannon, the cannonballs for it needed to be about 1/10th-inch smaller than the cannon's bore, so they would fit neither too loosely nor too tightly into the cannon's bore. Therefore, these cannonballs were 4.52-inches in diameter, made for use in a 4.62-inch caliber cannon.

About your two-balls-on-a-very-short-bar object's purpose:
It cannot be a "spin governor" because the balls are welded permanently in position on the bar.
It cannot be a crudely improvised artillery Bar-Shot, for two reasons: Bar-Shot had become obsolete ammunition long before Bormann-fuzed shells existed... and the bar is much too short for the object to perform effectively as a Bar-Shot.
You say it was found in a farm-field in Illinois. That fact and the approximately 3/4-inch gap between the balls makes me believe it was used as a farm animal's "tether-weight." That size of gap is just-right for tying on a rope or reins or other form of farm-animal tether.

 

[confederate83]

Thats pretty much awesome great find

 

[stranger]

Wow... Thanks so much for such a through explanation. It certainly seems like you have nailed it...THANKS. I still wonder why someone decided to attach them via a rod...guess we will never know.

Thanks again