✅ SOLVED US Marines buttons

Jedifelix17

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From World War One until 1923, "black finish" was applied to US Marines (and Army) brass buttons by the manufacturer, as camouflage to keep the shiny brass from giving away a hidden soldier's position to the enemy. Usage of "black finish" on US Military buttons was officially discontinued in 1923.
 

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Buttons are not made of brass, some type of pewter like base metal instead, I think the were plated silver when in use.
 

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Jedifelix17, if what you say about the metal those buttons are made from is correct, you've got the only known ones. According to all the books on US Military buttons, there have never been any pewter or base metal ("white-metal") US Marines buttons.
 

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Jedifelix17, I have a button exactly just like yours. Same color, and everything. I'm in the process of moving so it's packed away right now. I'll have to dig it out tomorrow, and take a picture for comparison.
 

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Jedifelix17, if what you say about the metal those buttons are made from is correct, you've got the only known ones. According to all the books on US Military buttons, there have never been any pewter or base metal ("white-metal") US Marines buttons.

There is no mistake, they are made of a white metal, I'll try and get a better picture.
 

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I have tried to get a better picture but my camera will not focus close enough. I hope these two pictures help. You can see the base metal showing through in a couple of places, I work with pewter and would say that it's a tin based alloy though it may be lead based. It seems fairly soft.
 

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Jedifelix17, once I dug mine out, I realized ours do differ in the back. It does has writing on the back, I tried to make it out, but I can't seem to. Here's what mine looks like.

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could be made of bronze that had a high tin content?
 

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Jedifelix17, once I dug mine out, I realized ours do differ in the back. It does has writing on the back, I tried to make it out, but I can't seem to. Here's what mine looks like

Yours would appear to be the blackened WW1 type. As described by TheCannonballGuy.
 

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could be made of bronze that had a high tin content?

It would have to be very tin rich to get the silver colour it has. The black finish is very similar to the oxidising you get on old pewter. They were odiously plated or painted silver at one point.
 

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Can you read the exact backmark including any symbols between the words?
 

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I think we can discover the correct answers to the mysteries. That is my only goal.

First, you asked how old they are. A key clue to that answer is the fact that you report their size (diameter) as approximately 5/8-inch. According to the book "Record Of American Uniform And Historical Buttons (by Alphaeus H. Albert), in the 20th Century "the Regulations of the US Marine Corps specify three sizes of buttons for officers, namely 1&1/8" (28.5mm), 1" (25.4mm), 27/40" (17mm), and four sizes for the enlisted men, namely 1&1/8" (28.5mm), 7/8" (22mm), 3/4" (19mm) and 5/8-inch (16mm)."

Since you say your two US marines buttons measure approximately 5/8th-inch, they are from the 20th Century, not any earlier. Also, the Scovill Manufacturing Company stopped making buttons in 1962.

I need you to use a Digital Caliper to measure them super-precisely, to tell with certainty whether they are 5/8" (16mm) for enlisted men, or the 17mm size for officers. The difference is important, because according to the Official Regulations, enlisted-men's button were NOT to be gilded or plated... ONLY a simple "bronze finish."

If they are indeed the 5/8" (16mm) size specified in the Regulations for enlisted-men's uniform... the "bronze finish" Regulation is why I find it difficult to believe your buttons are made of something other than brass/bronze. How could a "bronze finish" be put on a pewter or "base metal" button? And, why go to that extra effort and expense, instead of simply making the buttons from brass/bronze in the first place?

Jedifelix17 says that one of the buttons apperars to be silverplated. I have never seen any report of silverplated US Marines buttons. The Official Regulations do not authorize such a thing... specifying only either gilt (goldplating) for officer buttons, and "bronze finish" for enlisted-men's buttons.

I've saved what may be the most important observation for last. Your photos show that EVERY COMPONENT of those two US Marines buttons (front, back, wire-loop, and solder/brazing) is the same color. Ordinarily, that sameness-of-color can have only one cause: (1) all the components are made of the same material, (2) paint or "finish" (such as the WW1 camouflage "black finish") of some kind has been applied to all of the components, (3) the components have been electroplated some time AFTER the button was manufactured.

Please note, from the manufacturer's viewpoint there is no need to electroplate the wire loop on the button's back. I've seen some historical American Military (US and State Militia) buttons which have a silverplated front and back, but the wire loop and the solder/brazing which attaches the loop to the button's back is NEVER plated. That is a waste of the expensive "precious metal" used for plating.

The only reason I can think of for every component of Jedifelix17's buttons being the same color is that somebody (not the manufacturer) electroplated them, probably long after they were originally manufactured.

There is a test to tell with certainty whether those Scovill-produced US Marines buttons are made of brass/bronze, or a "white" metal such as pewter or zinc or base-metal... but it is "destructive" in a small way. Made a tiny gouge (not just a shallow scrape) by using a hacksaw blade on the back edge of the button, with the requirement that it must go deep enough to penetrate any plating or applied "finish." I won't hold it against you if you are not willing to do that... but it would settle the question of what type of metal the button's body is made of. It would also allow you to have the button tested to see whether the color is silverplate, or Sterling Silver, or something else. :)
 

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I know for a fact that there were some tin back Marine Corps coat buttons made as I have personally dug one. Mine of course is rusted out after being in the ground for quite some time as well as being high domed with a brass front. Button pictured appears to be a metal other than brass and has an unusually thick shank.

Granted the back mark is the substantial reference for dating buttons but one thing that is noticeable about date progression with Marine Corps buttons are two things. Two piece button designs started out high domed, or puffy if you will and became flatter as time went on. Additionally the wing spread of the eagle started out in the horizontal and as time went by the wings went down to a droop posture.

BTW, I'm not exactly sure when the black finish was officially re-introduced, but when I came in to the Marine Corps in 1973, I was issued service A uniform and overcoat with black finish buttons.
 

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I know for a fact that there were some tin back Marine Corps coat buttons made as I have personally dug one. Mine of course is rusted out after being in the ground for quite some time as well as being high domed with a brass front.....

I know there were/are a lot of tin back "service themed" patriotic buttons that were introduced to the general population after WWII and were often seen on blazers and jackets, but I am not aware of any issued Marine buttons with tin backs.
 

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I will try to answer all questions here:

The buttons are made of a "white metal" I have scratched all three components, and they are all made of the same material. I have a number of these buttons so no great harm done.

Size: from 15.72mm to 16.02mm digitally measured, there is some veriation due to wear but I would be confident in saying they were made as 16mm.

I have silver tested the "plating" with a negative result. As only one of the buttons shows any significant sign of this finish I would suggest it is a later addition, possably done with a paint as an attempt to "pretty" the button up.

I would be 95% confident in saying the black finish the buttons now have is due to tarnishing/oxidising of the white metal, if the color was original finish you could expect damage to the button to have removed the finish but this is not the case, in several places the buttons are scratched or dinked (some time ago) and the black coat is not affected. This would suggest to me that a tin/pewter alloy was used as these materials age in this way.

I apologise for the poor illustration of the writing, the font is not correct. But the general spacing and dots are as near as I could get.
 

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It may be of interest to note where these buttons were acquired, they came as a group of 10 held together by a piece of rusty wire in a bag of British military and civil uniform buttons, the other buttons in the "collection" date from approx 1900 to 1960, they were purchased at a "boot sale" by a friend of mine, who was kind enough to pass them on to me.
 

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i'm thinking the US Marines always had a Eagle,Globe and anchor.....maybe not..:dontknow:
 

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Creskol, a number of very-small-size "ironback" US Navy, Marines, and US Staff Officer buttons have been dug from civil war sites. That mystery was solved when some were found in non-excavated condition on Original civil war kepi hats. They are almost always a little smaller (13-14mm) than "cuff size" (15-16mm). Due to laundering, a button's iron back tends to eventually make a rust stain on the cloth it is sewed onto, so US Military buttons tend to not have an iron back. But a rust stain is invisible on a black leather kepi-hat strap.
 

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When I was in the Navy back in the late sixties the big thing to do in Hong Kong was to get a set of tailor made blues (The two piece uniform). These were not regulation nor were they approved for wear on duty. The point I am trying to make is, could the OPs buttons be from a Marine version of the Navy blues?
 

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