✅ SOLVED US Marines buttons

[Jedifelix17]

I know these are US marines buttons but I would love to know there age.
Some seem to have the remains of a silver finish.
Maker is Scovill MFG & Co Waterbury.
Size approximately 5/8"

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Fyrffytr1, I believe the answer to your question is no, because Jedifelix's buttons have the backmark of the Scovill Manufacturing Company, who had many US Government contracts for Military buttons, including all the versions of Regulation buttons. That pretty solidly takes Jedifelix's buttons out of the made-in-HongKong/Japan/Pakistan category.

Because every component (front, back, wire loop, and solder/brazing) is the same color, I believe Jedifelix's buttons are in actual fact made of brass/bronze whose surface color has been altered somehow... perhaps by something akin to Anodizing, or perhaps an amateur attempt at plating. A key clue for me is the wire loop on Jedifelix's buttons, which on US Marines buttons (and very nearly all other US Military metal buttons) is always either brass wire or copper wire. The loop on Jedifelix17's buttons is the same color as the rest of the button's body. I don't believe Scovill would have made these buttons' loops out of pewter or some other (non-iron) "white-metal." Why go to the trouble and expense of producing pewter/base-metal wire, when the usual brass/copper wire would do just fine? The loop is not seen when the button is sewed onto the uniform. There's no REASON to make the loop out of some kind of non-standard metal.

 

[Tony in SC]

I think they're blazer buttons!!

 

[Dug]

I know there were/are a lot of tin back "service themed" patriotic buttons that were introduced to the general population after WWII and were often seen on blazers and jackets, but I am not aware of any issued Marine buttons with tin backs.

Well if my tin back or iron back is a patriotic version that is a nice surprise as it would be a first for my collection. If that is the case the maker went to great lengths to be precise about matching the button front and rather than choosing the style of button in use during WW2 went with the earlier made high dome version. Here is a pic of the tin back I dug flanked by a pair of Horstmanns that I have dug also. These are coat size buttons.

 

[Dug]

i'm thinking the US Marines always had a Eagle,Globe and anchor.....maybe not..

Not sure why, but the globe was not included in the design on button faces, only on the collar and cover emblems...devil dog.

 

[creskol]

Well if my tin back or iron back is a patriotic version that is a nice surprise as it would be a first for my collection. If that is the case the maker went to great lengths to be precise about matching the button front and rather than choosing the style of button in use during WW2 went with the earlier made high dome version. Here is a pic of the tin back I dug flanked by a pair of Horstmanns that I have dug also. These are coat size buttons.

View attachment 1475019

View attachment 1475020

huh .. well then

 

[Jedifelix17]

Fyrffytr1, I believe the answer to your question is no, because Jedifelix's buttons have the backmark of the Scovill Manufacturing Company, who had many US Government contracts for Military buttons, including all the versions of Regulation buttons. That pretty solidly takes Jedifelix's buttons out of the made-in-HongKong/Japan/Pakistan category.

Because every component (front, back, wire loop, and solder/brazing) is the same color, I believe Jedifelix's buttons are in actual fact made of brass/bronze whose surface color has been altered somehow... perhaps by something akin to Anodizing, or perhaps an amateur attempt at plating. A key clue for me is the wire loop on Jedifelix's buttons, which on US Marines buttons (and very nearly all other US Military metal buttons) is always either brass wire or copper wire. The loop on Jedifelix17's buttons is the same color as the rest of the button's body. I don't believe Scovill would have made these buttons' loops out of pewter or some other (non-iron) "white-metal." Why go to the trouble and expense of producing pewter/base-metal wire, when the usual brass/copper wire would do just fine? The loop is not seen when the button is sewed onto the uniform. There's no REASON to make the loop out of some kind of non-standard metal.

I will have to disagree with you on the point of the metal these buttons is made from, it is a "white metal" I have been working with and restoring pewter for over 30 year, I know it's look, feel and characteristics better than most people. One of the buttons was in poor condition so I have made a deep cut into the back, it is "white metal" to a depth of over 1mm. The softness and color would confirm to me that it is pewter or a alloy very similar, with a mid to high lead content, as the metal is quite soft.

 

[RVRoamer76]

Not sure why, but the globe was not included in the design on button faces, only on the collar and cover emblems...devil dog.

Learned this old leatherneck something he did not know.....interesting, Thanks !!

 

[Dug]

Learned this old leatherneck something he did not know.....interesting, Thanks !!

I was in junior high when you were walking the walk, I caught the curtain call ..."Operation Frequent Wind". Semper Fi.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Dug wrote:
"Not sure why, but the globe was not included in the design on button faces, only on the collar and cover emblems."

The "eagle atop a nearly vertical anchor" US Marines button was adopted in 1821. The globe emblem was not adopted until much later... sometime in the late-1800s or very-early 1900s.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Jedifelix17 wrote:
"One of the buttons was in poor condition so I have made a deep cut into the back, it is "white metal" to a depth of over 1mm."

That is interesting information. That, and other things you've said have got me wondering if the buttons might be "1-piece construction" solid-cast metal instead of "2-piece construction" hollow stamped sheetmetal. You said you've already cut 1mm (1/25-inch) into the back of one of the buttons. Please cut deeper, to see whether you expose a hollow interior, or if the button is solid metal all the way through.

There's another reason I suspect the buttons MIGHT be solid-cast copies of an original 2-piece Marines button. In the photo showing the backs two of the buttons, side-by-side, both of the backs look "pushed inward" (making a shallow bowl shape), instead of flat or slightly convex as the backs were originally manufactured. It just seems hugely coincidental that both of the buttons you photographed have a "pushed-in back." You said you've got about 10 of these buttons. Do they all have a "pushed-in" (shallow bowl-shaped) back?

If the buttons are indeed solid-cast copies/reproductions of a 2-piece hollow button, that would explain why all the components are the same color, and why the buttons are not made of brass/bronze like all other 1821-to-present US Marines buttons.

 

[Jedifelix17]

As you will see in the picture the buttons are solid cast "white medal"

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Ahhh. Thank you... that solves the mystery. Seeing the "Scovill Mfg. Co. / Waterbury" backmark, I assumed the buttons were the standard hollow 2-piece sheetbrass/bronze US Marines buttons. Being actually a solid-cast whitemetal "copy," they are a non-Regulation imitation, not made by Scovill, and of course not US Military-Issue.

Clarification: I saw "copy" because they were cast in a mold which was made by using a real brass/bronze US Marines button as the "original" to create the impression inside the mold. Molten metal was then poured into the mold. Thus, the result is solid-cast copies which have every detail of the Original button, including the Original's backmark.

Fyrffytr1, it turns out your guess was on-target. Congratulations! These buttons really ARE a sort of "Hong Kong knock-off" crude solid-cast copy of an actual US Marines button. I was misdirected by seeing the Scovill marking on them. They weren't made for use by World War 1 or 2 Battle Re-Enactors, because those guys don't use anything but EXACT copies of original Military-Issue equipment, and there is no such thing as a US Military Issue white-metal 1821-to-present US Marines button. (You'd get laughed out of your Re-Enactor Marines unit for putting these on your uniform.)

 

[Jedifelix17]

I agree they are not genuine factory made buttons and are certainly not for the reenactment market, though I would say they are of some age, the oxidisation of the pewter is very hard to fake. It will probably remain a mistery as to why anyone would go to the trouble to fake something that is not hard to find and has little value.

Thanks to everyone for the information, has been interesting.

 

[Dug]

Dug wrote:
"Not sure why, but the globe was not included in the design on button faces, only on the collar and cover emblems."

The "eagle atop a nearly vertical anchor" US Marines button was adopted in 1821. The globe emblem was not adopted until much later... sometime in the late-1800s or very-early 1900s.

I stand by my statement regarding the globe not being included on the button face. Here is a pic of a modern Marine Corps coat button on my dress blue alpha coat. As you can see, the globe is not present.

 

[RVRoamer76]

I stand by my statement regarding the globe not being included on the button face. Here is a pic of a modern Marine Corps coat button on my dress blue alpha coat. As you can see, the globe is not present.

View attachment 1475380

That's very cool.....I never could afford a set of dress blues, guess too young and spent my small L/Cpl pay on other incidentals, (beer, and junk)...my bad!

 

[RVRoamer76]

I was in junior high when you were walking the walk, I caught the curtain call ..."Operation Frequent Wind". Semper Fi.

View attachment 1475107

Yes for sure !! Semper Fi Marine

 

[Dug]

That's very cool.....I never could afford a set of dress blues, guess too young and spent my small L/Cpl pay on other incidentals, (beer, and junk)...my bad!

Neither could I. Got my first set issued to me as a LCpl when I went on embassy duty in 75.