What kind of cartridge is this? Too long for Lebel.

[James57]

I found this item last week - an old cartridge with a knife blade set in concrete in the shell. Someone suggested that it looked like an 8mm Lebel shell and that it may be an example of crude WW1 'Trench Art'. You can see that the cartridge tapers like a Lebel. The main difference is that an 8mm Lebel cartridge is 50mm (2") long while this one is 60mm long (2.36"). Also the mark on the base does not match any Lebel shells that I could find on the internet.

The dimensions are pretty close to a Lebel except the length is wrong. Here are the dimensions:
rim: 15.5mm (.610")
base: 13.8mm (.543")
shoulder: 12.3mm (.484")
neck: 9mm (.354")

Any ideas as to what kind of cartridge this is?

 

[truckinbutch]

I'm with Spooky on this one .

 

[James57]

I would SWEAR that is a "Lebel"

Where are you measuring from?

You can see the opening of the mouth just below the concrete. There is a rim there. I measure from that point to the bottom of the cartridge.

 

[truckinbutch]

Oops for bofus .

 

[James57]

Here are some close-ups of the seam. I used a wire brush to shine up the neck on the second photo. It is brass all the way to the mouth. All I can think of is maybe they used an extra bit on the neck to make it longer and I can't see it through the corrosion. Everything else seems to match a Lebel.

 

[Scottso]

it a 20mm shell for a very big gun german anti aircraft bullet

 

[Monty]

.41 Swiss, also known as the 10.4 X 38 Swiss? But it also looks much like a .38-56 Winchester.Monty

 

[Monty]

Hmmmmm, well, I can't find a case with those exact measurements. When they first developed cases of that design they were first blackpowder and then went to smokeless powder and there were virtually dozens of cases with similar dimensions both foreign and domestic. With a clean case sans the knife blade we could probably figure it out but not having the precise measurements makes it difficult. Monty

 

[hasbeen]

The cartridge appears to be an 8x60mm Kropatchek or an 8x60 Guedes. They are considered by many to be the same cartridge. hasbeen

 

[James57]

That's it! Thanks for the ID hasbeen! I wonder if this was a Boer War relic.

 

[James57]

I came acros this link that mentions that 8100 of the Portuguese 8x60 mm Guedes werte made in Austria and were then shipped to Orange Free State where they were used in the Boer War.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Portugal/Regalado/Regalado.htm

It looks like the different models got around to other places though.