Where To Start

[cactusjumper]

There are so many stories about the LDM, that it's difficult to find a really good point to start the search. Even though I have never physically searched for Waltz's mine, I have researched the legend for many years.

Picking the stories closest to the events, seems like the most reasonable path to take. Julia and Rhiney were the first two people to actually attempt a search after Waltz's death.....as far as we know. Jim Bark found the two of them camped around the entrance to Hog Canyon and stated that they had tried to drive their buggy up the canyon.

On their second trip, they entered the range at Second Water Ranch. They spent a great deal of time searching around Weaver's Needle.

The first "document" concerning the mine, is a story in the Arizona Daily Gazette, Aug. 27, 1892. In that story, it is stated that "it's location is supposed to be a short distance back from the western end of the main Superstition mountain." That information could only have come from Julia, and Rhiney, or possibly Herman and Gottfried....which seems unlikely.

When Brownie Holmes began his "systematic" search, he started it on the main mountain. Seems telling that someone who had the "deathbed" information, would start from there.

The west end of the range seems to be the early consensus for those who were first on the scene.

Later evidence also points to the western portion of the mountains.

cj

 

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[cactusjumper]

Hi Randy,

I was thinking more along the lines of where to start a search "historically". If you begin your own search for the LDM in Goldfield, there is a small amount of evidence that indicates that the mine could have been there,
so that would be reasonable.

On the other hand, I believe the ore from the LDM might have spent some time in Goldfield. I doubt it originated there.

Your shotgun approach might tend to wear out some good boot leather and, historically, Brownie Holmes tried that approach.....a few years ago. Do we have more information than Brownie? Perhaps, but is it any better?

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

Don't know where you got that story, but it does not conform with anything I have read in the last forty-eight years. Julia never started any of her searches from the Salt River......that I know of.

I have heard a lot of stories that are not in print, but that's a first for your's.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Cactusjumper,

I have suggested this in other threads, it IS possible to go "beyond" the articles and reports from Waltz's deathbed and afterwards - try reading through the "Pioneer interviews" which were conducted during the Depression by WPA workers, who went round to all the "old folks' homes" and interviewed old-timers. I found a number of different sources there, including people who had lived in Florence while Waltz was alive, and at the time Waltz was prospecting for the mine, as well as after he had discovered it, but before it became a "great secret". The version you will get from those old-timers is far different from the 'deathbed' versions we get - it is much less full of drama, murder, Spaniards, Peraltas etc but - has a ring of truth to it. I know that on my next venture for the LDM I plan to follow up on the leads I found among those old "Pioneer interviews" - no stone maps, no massacres, no Jesuits, etc but a very rich lode gold mine, and a rough description of where it is.

Good luck and good hunting to you Cactusjumper, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

Looking for the cave's of gold bars.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

It's amazing how many old timers knew Jacob Waltz. I have worked with old folks for a long time now. If you ask them specifically, many will tell you they rode with Pancho Villa and planed the Lincoln assassination.

They are wonderful people and deserve respect, but I would not be inclined to believe everything they say.

You can reach the LDM by starting at the Salt. The final leg will require a strong arm.

cj

 

[the blindbowman]

i got a better idea why not just ask the blindbowman where it is ...?

but frist lets look at hog cayon, for one they were right you can see it from phoenix on the other hand its dose not fit the discriptions . wrong cayon . and secound the frist water and secound water cayon may have been related in dick holmes acount , not so in Julia's acount or Rhiney's acount and also can not be seen from phoenix . so that rules those out ...

but who knows maybe julia was a map maker and a tracker and knew just where it was ...lol

you dont have to beleave me but i will say none of them could have found the mine with what they had been told ...and i do mean none of them !

thats an out right fact knowing what i know ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Great news about your brother.

I would ask you, but you would not answer. The other reason I don't ask, is because it's clear you don't know the answers. You are not sure which legend, which people, which mine.....etc. You are sure you have something, just not sure what. If someone shoots down the story you have just posted......well then it must be another story.

Don't feel lonely as you are not alone at all. Many Dutch Hunters are in the same boat.

cj

 

[the blindbowman]

yes it is great news about my brother,....december 2007 is a long ways off ..

and i will explan what i found and where and why and when and how, when the time is right ...and i have my permits in hand ..and legal clam...

dont be confuse with what you think i know, by what i have told you i know ! i stated i have posted less than 10% of my research on the web , i was not confused when i posted that....

i welcome your insights , you can say what you want but remember you may have to retract what you say if i am right ...and i prove i am right ...

history is a always changeing data base and it can vanish and fade out of sight and reapear in other places ...

we make history and find it , and even change what is known about it or what people think they know about it ...

so if you are not talking about legend than most of the history of the LDM is confussion and peices at best ... good luck i hope you can learn from what you are doing, it just wont be from me ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco,

It's amazing how many old timers knew Jacob Waltz. I have worked with old folks for a long time now. If you ask them specifically, many will tell you they rode with Pancho Villa and planed the Lincoln assassination.

They are wonderful people and deserve respect, but I would not be inclined to believe everything they say.

You can reach the LDM by starting at the Salt. The final leg will require a strong arm.

cj

Uh-huh - well I only found a handful of those interviews that turned out to be people who actually knew Waltz, and the details they gave are not anywhere near as "exciting" or dramatic as the legends. I would be very surprised to find anyone alive today who knew Waltz when he was still prospecting - they would be at least 140 years old. Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Randy - heck I suspect that you probably already know this "other" place! I may have to ask you to take ME along!
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

"Uh-huh - well I only found a handful of those interviews that turned out to be people who actually knew Waltz, and the details they gave are not anywhere near as "exciting" or dramatic as the legends. I would be very surprised to find anyone alive today who knew Waltz when he was still prospecting - they would be at least 140 years old. Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek."

I have no idea where you are going with that comment. I am no longer going into the Superstitions, so I am only participating in "Dutch Hunting" vicariously.

Did you get the idea that I thought someone who knew Waltz was still alive......or what?

Many people are as sharp, mentally, at 90 as they were at 40. Most are starting to get a little confused. You ask them a question and they don't really want to disappoint you by not having an answer.

My manner is, usually, overly direct and that rubs many folks the wrong way. Hard to change this late in life, but I recognize the fault. No offense meant.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My mistake,

I thought you were speaking "historically", not legendary. Which is why I suggested "pre-Rhiney".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it your opinion, then, that nothing post-Rhiney should be considered "historical"? While the story of the cave of gold bars could be a tall tale, the gold bar that Harry LaFrance had was real.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

I have said for many years that I thought the LDM, if ever found, would turn out to be a worked-out mine. I am more sure of that today, than ever. That opinion and five bucks will get me an average cup of coffee.
I hope that I am wrong and one of you folks will prove it. You may take that to the bank, Sir.

Good luck and good hunting.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Cactusjumper,
Cactusjumper wrote:

I have no idea where you are going with that comment. I am no longer going into the Superstitions, so I am only participating in "Dutch Hunting" vicariously.

Did you get the idea that I thought someone who knew Waltz was still alive......or what? Huh

Many people are as sharp, mentally, at 90 as they were at 40. Most are starting to get a little confused. You ask them a question and they don't really want to disappoint you by not having an answer.

Well your statement that you would not take seriously everything said by an "old timer" pretty well sums up your view. The impression I got from your posts was that you were lumping together the statements of "old timers" alive TODAY with statements of "old timers" alive in 1933. If you prefer to dismiss those reports/statements, that is your prerogative. Of course that leaves the Holmes version and the Thomas/Petrasch version, which has been used by so many thousands of Dutch-hunters for so many years with ill-success.

Cactusjumper wrote:

I have said for many years that I thought the LDM, if ever found, would turn out to be a worked-out mine. I am more sure of that today, than ever. That opinion and five bucks will get me an average cup of coffee.
I hope that I am wrong and one of you folks will prove it. You may take that to the bank, Sir.

Your view is in agreement with that of another semi-famous treasure hunter, Milton Rose, who claimed to have found the mine, (in a very different location from where the vast majority of Dutch-hunters search) worked it, and removed something like $35,000 and the vein completely played out. Of course, if it IS played out, what is the point of hunting for it? A quest to prove a point?

My manner is, usually, overly direct and that rubs many folks the wrong way. Hard to change this late in life, but I recognize the fault. No offense meant.

No offense taken, being blunt doesn't change the content of a written statement on a basic level. After all, we don't have to be friends, to get along.

Your statement about the gold bar of Harry Lafrance, is there any way to prove what he found, short of finding the cave/tunnel?

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

"Well your statement that you would not take seriously everything said by an "old timer" pretty well sums up your view."

"They are wonderful people and deserve respect, but I would not be inclined to believe everything they say."

Your opinion of what I said may be correct, but I believe "not be inclined to believe everything they say" seems a little less of an indictment of "an old timer" than your summary explanation. There are many old timers that I would always believe....like you.

I always make it a point to use the other man's own/exact words when saying what I think he said. That way, in case I may have it wrong, gives me one more chance to pick up any mistaken interpretation on my part. If I ever tell you what I think you said, without putting your exact words in quotation marks, you may slap me with this post.

I have Mr. Rose's manuscript, and would not believe everything he wrote.

In those days, Florence was a bit of a hike from the Superstition Mountains. That does not mean that folks who lived there did not know anything about Jacob Waltz and his mine in the Superstitions, but it does makes it a little less likely.

As I said before, I have never hunted for the LDM. Most of what I say concerning the Waltz mine is strictly my opinion based on research and information from other Dutch Hunters.

There is one man, that I know of, who is still alive and knew Harry LaFrance, participated in Harry's search and held the gold bar in his hand. That would be Tracy Hawkins, who was a partner with Chuck Ribaudo, who also was involved in the search and examined the gold bar. Chuck was my uncle, and told me the story. Knowing Chuck since I was thirteen years old, I know his part of the story is true. I can't vouch for anyone else or Harry LaFrance.

Harry's cave is empty.

While it's true "we don't have to be friends, to get along", I don't see where being friends would necessarily be a detriment.

Joe Ribaudo (cj)

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

You are correct.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Cactusjumper,

Thanks for the kind words. I forgot to add in that last post, that there are many forms of "treasure" so for someone who is hunting the LDM or any other treasure, if it is their goal to "prove" it, in my view that is a treasure every bit as much as a stack of silver reales. Hunting the LDM vicariously may not involve ache-ing legs, back etc but the reward is not that different for a success. Besides you have already paid your dues in aches and pains. How does that poem by Robert Service go again,

"There's gold and its haunting and haunting,
Its luring me on as of old,
But its not the gold that I'm wanting,
So much as just finding the gold."

For my own purpose, simply proving that the LDM existed would not be a "success" as that is not what I seek.

I am in agreement with you on Rose, I too have some problems with his veracity arising from some of his other claims, including some "Jesuit" treasures and a bell he produced from his expeditions which proved to be fakes.

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek - whether the type that has to be hauled on mules or the kind one keeps close to one's heart.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Yes.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Randy - some info you would care to share with us here? You know me - always "trolling" for new info on old mines!

Finally going to get a day of poking around with the detector tomorrow, in a new area (for me anyway) a long ways from the Superstitions - but need to just get out there again regardless of where, just to 'keep my hand in' as they say. There are lost mine legends in my own area here too (like the lost Apache Girl mine, one I never hunted for but may spend some leather or horseshoe on) but for some reason that darned Lost Dutchman has quite an allure - maybe a "siren song" would be more accurate! If Mrs Oro had her way, we would be moving to Apache Junction next week...yikes!

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[MesaBuddy]

BTW, there is a lost mine legend in Wickenburg. I'll post the paper tomorrow. Gotta find it.

Now ya ain't moving to Wickenburg now are you Randy

MB