Wild and Scenic South Yuba regs

[n01d3x]

I have heard many different things regarding prospecting regs in this area. I found that in the South Yuba Rec Area it is definitely hands and pans only. However I am not sure exactly what area this entails? I know that whole section of the river is called the Wild and Scenic South Yuba River, but I think that is different than the South Yuba Rec Area. Am I right or wrong? Can anyone clarify the where exactly it is hands and pans only on the South Yuba, from Lake Spaulding all the way to Yuba County?

 

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[mytimetoshine]

pm sent

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[Hoser John]

BLM.com will answer all questions with the latest-sickest-regs you can imagine-John

 

[Laz7777]

I've worked the south fork extensively, and maybe, just maybe hands and pans is enforced in some areas, mainly from Edwards' Crossing downstream, but generally anywhere else, no motorized gear and you're good.
once you reach somewhere near Missouri Bar, you can run a high banker legally, you're off of BLM and in Tahoe NF.
when you get upstream of Washington, there is an area below the Alpha Diggings that is a no-mining area, I believe that is is private piece of land owned by a logging company and they don't want you there at all.
get too close to Spaulding and don't bother, there's nothing there and never was.

if that don't answer it all for you, don't know what else will.

and BTW, the S. Yuba is a state-designated wild and scenic, not a federal designation.

 

[n01d3x]

Wow, so we can high bank in CA? I've been told it is banned. Thanks for the info.

 

[Hoser John]

Question: Can I use a highbanker or power sluice to recover gold?
Answer: Yes, under the following conditions:
1. The Fish and Game Code, the Clean Water Act, and the California Water Code
prohibit you from discharging water and waste sediment from your highbanker or
power sluice to an area such that it may enter a stream, river, lake, or other
surface water body without a permit from the Regional Water Quality Control
Board (Regional Water Board) responsible for the area where you’ll be mining.
Currently there is no general permit available for discharges of water and waste
sediment from highbankers or power sluices to streams, rivers, lakes, or other
surface water bodies.
2. You can discharge water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power
sluice to land but you must first apply for a permit from the Regional Water Board
responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. To apply for a permit, you must
file a Report of Waste Discharge with the Regional Water Board. You cannot
begin mining until the Regional Water Board approves your Report of Waste
Discharge and notifies you that either your permit has been issued or that a
permit is not required because the discharge will not create or threaten to create
a condition of pollution or nuisance. The minimum fee for the permit is $1120.00
but may be higher depending on the threat the discharge poses to water quality
and the complexity of the discharge as determined by the Regional Water Board.
See below
for legal details.
3. If you are diverting water from a riparian parcel for use on that parcel, you must
have a riparian water right or be legally entitled to use riparian water rights for the
parcel and you must file a Statement of Water Diversion and Use (Statement)
with the State Water Resources Control Board’s (State Water Board) Division of
Water Rights for each point of diversion. The fee for filing a Statement of
Diversion and Use is $50.00. For general information about riparian water rights,
and whether you have one, go to:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml
. For information
about Statements of Diversion and Use, and how to file one, go to:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml
.
4. If you plan to divert water for use on non-riparian land, or to divert water that
would not be there under natural conditions for use on riparian land, you must
apply for and receive a permit to appropriate water from the State Water
Resources Control Board. For information about applying for water rights, go to:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml
Question: What are the penalties if I don’t comply with the conditions?
Answer:
Violating conditions 1 and 2 may result in fines of up to $10,000 for each
day, or if the matter is referred to the courts, fines up to $25,000 for each day in which
the violation occurs.
Violating condition 3 may result in a fine of up to $1,000 plus $500 for each day the
violation continues after 30 days of the State Water Board notification of the violation.
Go to: State Water Resources Control Board
for details.
Violating condition 4 may result in a fine of up to $500 per day of unauthorized diversion
and use. Go to:
http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml#toc178761086
for
details.
Legal Information:
In many instances mining activities, including high banking require one or more permits
from the State Water Resources Control Board (State Water Board) or appropriate
Regional Water Quality Control Board (Regional Water Board). Various federal and
state law requirements necessitate permitting and notification of mining activities as
they affect the waters of the state of California. The federal Clean Water Act was
enacted by Congress “to restore and maintain the chemical, physical, and biological
integrity of the Nation’s waters.”
1 Section 301 of the Clean Water Act prohibits “the
discharge of any pollutant by any person” except in compliance with the Clean Water
Act; i.e., except without obtaining a permit.
2 The “discharge of any pollutant” means
any addition of any pollutant to navigable waters from any point source. As defined by
the Clean Water Act, “pollutants” include numerous metals and toxic substances (e.
mercury) as well as dredged spoil, rock, sand, and earthen materials.
g.,
3
In California, the
State Water Board and the Regional Water Quality Control Boards (Regional Water
Boards) are the state agencies that administer the Clean Water Act.
4
California’s counterpart to the Clean Water Act is the Porter-Cologne Water Quality
Control Act (Porter-Cologne).
5 Pursuant to Porter-Cologne, any person discharging
waste, or proposing to discharge waste that could affect the quality of the waters of the
state must file a report of the discharge with the appropriate Regional Water Board.
6
While certain waters and activities may be beyond the jurisdictional reach of the Clean
Water Act, Porter-Cologne is much broader in reach and comprehensive in coverage.
Porter-Cologne defines “waste” to include any and all waste substances associated with
1
33 U.S.C. § 1251(a).
2
33 U.S.C. § 1311(a).
3
33 U.S.C. § 1362(6).
4
Wat. Code, § 13160.
5
Wat. Code, § 13000 et seq.
6
Wat. Code, § 13260, subd. (a).
human habitation or resulting from any producing, manufacturing, or processing
operation, including mining waste.
7 Similarly, “waters of the state” is much broader than
what is considered the “nation’s waters” under the Clean Water Act. Waters of the state
includes “any surface water or groundwater, including saline waters, within the
boundaries of the state.
8
When discharging to waters within California’s borders, compliance with both the federal
Clean Water Act and the state Porter-Cologne Water Quality Control Act is required in
most instances. This includes most federal lands located within California.
9 Any person
violating these water quality laws may subject that person to fines imposed by the State
or Regional Water Boards of up to $10,000 for each day in which the violation occurs
plus $10 per gallon of discharge. If the matter is referred to the courts, that court may
impose civil fines as high as $25,000 for each day in which the violation occurs.
10
In addition to the discharge or proposed discharge of pollutants or waste to the waters
of the state, any person or organization who diverts water from a surface stream or
other body of surface water or pumps groundwater from a known subterranean stream
must file a statement of its diversion and use.
11 A Statement of Water Diversion and
Use (Statement) must be filed with the State Water Board’s Division of Water Rights for
each point of diversion and should identify the amount of water used during the first
calendar year. The Statement must be filed with the Division of Water Rights on or
before June 30 of the following year. Failure to file a Statement for each diversion that
occurred after January 1, 2009, may be subject to civil liabilities that carry a maximum
fine of $1,000 plus $500 for each day the violation continues after 30 days of the State
Water Board notification of the violation.
12 For more information on how to file a
Statement and when filing is required, please see:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/water_issues/programs/diversion_us
e/index.shtml
7
Wat, Code, § 13050, subds. (d) and (q).
8
Id., subd. (e) (emphasis added).
9
E.g., see 36 C.F.R. § 228.8 (Mining operators on Forest Service lands and shall comply with applicable federal and
state water quality standards, including regulations issued pursuant to the Clean Water Act.)
10
Wat. Code, §§ 13350, 13385.
11
Wat. Code, § 5101.
12
Wat. Code, § 5107.
The following article is published by the Foundation for
Economic Education (FEE) and printed online

 

[KevinInColorado]

So basically "no". Right?

 

[Goldfleks]

Yes, you can high bank. But in order to do it, you need a water right and a settling pool. Both may need permits. Which means you need to own a claim with a water source running through it (or have permission to mine the claim). Claim owners get water rights.

If you don't own a claim, you have no legal water rights and will need to get a permit to remove water from the river.

At least that's how I understand it.

 

[Clay Diggins]

So basically "no". Right?

wrong

There is no law or regulation banning highbanking in California.

There is no permit system for highbanking. I could prove it for you if it were possible to prove a negative. It isn't possible to prove a negative so those who like to pretend there is a permit or law will have to pony up their proof - so far it's never happened.

Heavy Pans

 

[n01d3x]

Thanks, I've read that before and that's pretty much what I took it to mean. I'll add two things to it though.
1. I backpack a lot. I regularly take water from waterways to use in the area that I took it from, for drinking, cooking and other camp related tasks. According to that Reg, I need a permit. I also discharge what would be considered waste water at camp, washing dishes, brushing teeth, putting out camp fires etc. So that makes me need the other permit.
2. I work for a city here in Northern CA, for the waste water collections department. We work under that same discharge permit. We treat sewer water and release it back into the creek. I remember when they started requiring this permit. I actually attended a few conferences about it. It seems a little strange that they would require me to have the same permit that a city, treating and releasing millions of gallons of sewer a day, has to have. I assure you, the small one man high banking op was not the original intent of that permit. Original intent of the law does mean something at least.

 

[Goldfleks]

I assure you, the small one man high banking op was not the original intent of that permit. Original intent of the law does mean something at least.

That's part of the problem with our legal system. We've created a system of ambiguities. Rather than a system of specifics. Which has created a system where no one knows what's legal and what isn't because so much of it is left open to interpretation. Thanks overreaching government regulaion.

 

[Clay Diggins]

That's part of the problem with our legal system. We've created a system of ambiguities. Rather than a system of specifics. Which has created a system where no one knows what's legal and what isn't because so much of it is left open to interpretation. Thanks overreaching government regulaion.

I don't disagree that regulation can be overreaching and ambiguous but the law is clear for all to read.

Here's the part that seems to lead some to speculate that highbanking is banned or requires big money and time permitting:

“An entity may not [1] substantially divert or obstruct the natural flow of, or [2] substantially change or use any material from the bed, channel, or bank of, any river, stream, or lake, or [3] deposit or dispose of debris, waste, or other material where it may pass into any river, stream, or lake [absent, inter alia, notification to the Department].”

If you stopped there and presumed the worst interpetation possible you might conclude that there is a possibility it could apply to a highbanking operation of significant size. Lucky for miners California has had laws governing highbanking on the books for many years that explain in detail what the miners obligations are:

3964. No placer mining operator shall mine by the placer process on any stream or on the watershed of any stream tributary directly or indirectly to the Sacramento River or the San Joaquin River without taking both of the following precautions to prevent pollution of the stream by the effluent from his or her operations:

(a) Constructing a settling pond or ponds of sufficient size to permit the clarification of water used in the mining processes before the water is discharged into the stream.

(b) Mixing with the effluent from mining operations aluminum sulphate and lime, or an equivalent clarifying substance which will cause the solid material in the effluent to coagulate and thus avoid rendering the water in the stream unfit for domestic water supply purposes.

Hardly ambiguous. Although I am sure there are those who would interpret any law to be an obstruction to mining clearly the law does exist that describes in detail the rights and obligations of those who mine in the State.

There is a lot more to California mining and water law. They are complex subjects but the law is what defines your rights and responsibilities - not the press or a government agency employee. I suggest everyone read and understand the law before they rely on the idiot misinterpretations of big headed agency bureaucrats. What you find on an agency website and what the actual law is are often very different.

Heavy Pans

 

[KevinInColorado]

wrong

There is no law or regulation banning highbanking in California.

There is no permit system for highbanking. I could prove it for you if it were possible to prove a negative. It isn't possible to prove a negative so those who like to pretend there is a permit or law will have to pony up their proof - so far it's never happened.

Heavy Pans

Oh good!

Still glad I live in Colorado tho

 

[Laz7777]

yes, there's a lot of ambiguity, which is why no one can give you a straight answer on just the hands and pans thing.
I've seen BLM maintenance workers breaking bedrock at Illinois Crossing...according to what is posted at Edwards, you can use your hands (no tools) and a pan only, and only wet gravels, nothing up the banks...wtf?

for all practical matters, nobody cares about it. there are 3, count em, 3 BLM LEO's for the entire Motherlode field office. do you think that they're going to be patrolling the few areas that a vehicle can access so they can crack down on a reg that many of them don't care about?
or that the cross-policing done by State Park rangers or Nevada county sheriffs will care either?
or, and this is a big laughable OR....that they'll hike their cheezburger, donut eating fat arses down the trail to make sure you aren't doing anything there either?

I know the claim holders working upstream of Missouri Bar...they're high banking and never had a problem...I know a guy dredging, but I won't say where....

but...as I've stated in an earlier post, don't do anything too noticeable from Edwards downstream and you're ok.....you might run into the SYRCL jerks tho, people who do some good but have too many do-gooders in the organization, if you know what I mean.
avoid these over-zealous environuts and you'll be ok..

n01d3x...do you work for NID?

 

[mytimetoshine]

the biggest problem I run into is naked weirdos! It's kind of uncomfortable to pan when you have a group of guys sunbathing with the package for all to see, the girls are ok though😜😃🤔

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[Goldfleks]

the biggest problem I run into is naked weirdos! It's kind of uncomfortable to pan when you have a group of guys sunbathing with the package for all to see, the girls are ok though������

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

You're just enough agitation to stratify to the beans from the frank...

 

[Laz7777]

I've panned naked there, so I guess that'd include me, mytime
here's a group of kids from Berkely that visited my camp Labor Day weekend, you should've seen the girls get those knitted tops on quick when I got my android tablet out for a pic! guess which one's me.

 

[mytimetoshine]

Are you the pink one with the big hips?.. Hey man to each there own. I'm a man of tolerance, but I just don't get it. you do you, I'll do me and we can coexist. But dang I feel funny when I'm digging in the dirt for gold and people are naked all around me. no bueno

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[Laz7777]

I've only panned naked my first year and found out why we need clothes...got burned in places that hadn't seen the sun shine since I was about 3 years old or so...

I've gotten used to the casual nudity, most of the time I'm away from any easy area to get to, so I tend to not see too much.
and I'll go take my afternoon dip in the river sans shorts, dry off for a bit and gets my rags back on....but mostly when I'm by my lonesome....

I miss home badly.....

 

[wildminer]

I've panned naked there, so I guess that'd include me, mytime
here's a group of kids from Berkely that visited my camp Labor Day weekend, you should've seen the girls get those knitted tops on quick when I got my android tablet out for a pic! guess which one's me.

The one that looks like he'd lose the foot race and wouldn't care?