Any New Florida Laws?

[goldringseaker]

I'm heading do there over Easter and was wondering if there were any new laws prohibiting metal detecting. Thanks.

 

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[FLauthor]

Stay away from Playalinda National Seashore. If you've got a good set of eyes, you can eyeball jewelry there as some have. State Parks, it depends on the Rangers so ask them. Disney Fort Wilderness Campgrounds, some people have TH'd it but Disney Policy prohibits metal detecting. You'll receive a warning the first time and the second can result in Trespass to Disney Property FOREVER!

 

[goldringseaker]

Hey thanks a ton

 

[rbdigger]

Here you go:

OK, this is going to be a long post, but I want to purvey this information to everyone, so they have it and can make a judgement of their own. I want to state right from the start that my interpretation of what follows, is just my interpretation of the information as it was presented to me. You, of course, as I stated, are free to make your own judgement.

So, here we go. Being new to saltwater metal detecting and living along the treasure coast of Florida where there are several treasure salvage leases that prohibit MDing in the water I sought to find out where exactly along the east coast of FL it was legal to MD in the water up to neck deep (i.e., no snorkel or scuba gear). I needed to make completely sure what I and my 14-year old daughter were wanting to do was legal. To get this information I contacted the Department of State (DOS) for the State of Florida as they have jurisdiction over this type of activity. After many weeks of trying, I made contact with the correct person in the DOS and they provided me with the following information. Not the answer I was expecting that is for sure!
__________________________________________________

Good afternoon Mr. xxxxxxxxxxxx,

Thank you for contacting our office, it is greatly appreciated that you are interested in enjoying your hobby within the laws. In short, metal detecting on state owned beaches is allowed between the toe of the dunes and average high tide mark. This is the overriding general rule, however, local managing agencies sometimes have other rules in place so always contact the specific land manager for the area you are interested in detecting in.

Coming to your specific question though, metal detecting in the water is different. Below the average high tide mark is State Sovereign Submerged lands where all artifacts belong to the state, and archaeological excavation is not allowed without proper permitting from this office. In most cases permits from the Department of Environmental Protection and the Army Corp of Engineers are also necessary. Digging or destruction of buried archaeological remains without the proper permitting from the Division of Historical Resources is a 3rd Degree Felony. Since the solitary function of a metal detector is to locate buried metallic items and then recover the buried object by digging, and because it can never be predetermined whether a metal object is a newly lost item or centuries old archaeological artifact, it is our policy to not allow this activity in the water. For your convenience I have inserted the information relating to metal detecting below my signature block.

I realize that this is not the answer you were hoping for but I do hope this information helps clarify the situation, and we do hope you and your daughter enjoy your hobby this coming summer season in the appropriate areas. Have a pleasant evening!
__________________________________________________ ___________

My contact also provided me with that state statutes that apply. They are as follows.
__________________________________________________ ___________

FLORIDA STATUTE 267

267.13 Prohibited practices; penalties.

(1)(a) Any person who by means other than excavation either conducts archaeological field investigations on, or removes or attempts to remove, or defaces, destroys, or otherwise alters any archaeological site or specimen located upon, any land owned or controlled by the state or within the boundaries of a designated state archaeological landmark or landmark zone, except in the course of activities pursued under the authority of a permit or under procedures relating to accredited institutions granted by the division, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.
i.) Shall forfeit to the state all specimens, objects, and materials
collected, together with all photographs and records relating to such material (punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083).

(b) Any person who by means of excavation either conducts archaeological field investigations on, or removes or attempts to remove, or defaces, destroys, or otherwise alters any archaeological site or specimen located upon, any land owned or controlled by the state or within the boundaries of a designated state archaeological landmark or landmark zone, except in the course of activities pursued under the authority of a permit or under procedures relating to accredited institutions granted by the division, commits a felony of the third degree.
i.) Any vehicle or equipment of any person used in connection with
the violation is subject to forfeiture to the state if it is determined by any court of law that the vehicle or equipment was involved in the violation (punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s.
775.084).
ii.) Such person shall forfeit to the state all specimens, objects, and materials collected or excavated, together with all photographs and records relating to such material.
iii.) The court may also order the defendant to make restitution to the state for the archaeological or commercial value and cost of restoration and repair as defined in subsection (4).

(c) Any person who offers for sale or exchange any object with knowledge that it has previously been collected or excavated in violation of any of the terms of ss. 267.11-267.14, or who procures, counsels, solicits, or employs any other person to violate any prohibition contained in ss. 267.11-267.14 or to sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange any archaeological resource excavated or removed from any land owned or controlled by the state or within the boundaries of a designated state archaeological landmark or landmark zone, except with the express consent of the division, commits a felony of the third degree.
i.) Any vehicle or equipment of any person used in connection with
the violation is subject to forfeiture to the state if it is determined by any court of law that such vehicle or equipment was involved in the violation (punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s.
775.084).
ii.) All specimens, objects, and material collected or excavated, together with all photographs and records relating to such material, shall be forfeited to the state.
iii.) The court may also order the defendant to make restitution to the state for the archaeological or commercial value and cost of restoration and repair as defined in subsection (4).
__________________________________________________ __________
FLORIDA STATE PARK METAL DETECTING POLICY

The Division does allow metal detecting in certain cases. There are only three instances when metal detectors can be used in state parks. The park staff should ascertain the purpose of the use to determine the appropriateness of the activity and the procedures to be used.

I.) Use of a Metal Detector to find a lost personal item Operations Manual (OM) Chapter 4 - General Administration (Revised 10/18/06)

Metal detectors may be used to recover personal items that are specifically identified by their owner as being lost in a specific area of a park. The owner of lost property or his representative should contact the park manager who will arrange a time for the search to be conducted in the presence of a park staff member. During these searches, only the item sought may be kept by the owner or his representative.

2.) Use of a Metal Detector for Recreational Purposes Operations Manual
(OM) Chapter 11 - Cultural Resource Management (Revised 6/13/05)

Use of metal detectors, magnetometers or other metal detecting devices is prohibited on all state park lands, including sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks, except for the following:

Coastal parks, in a zone between the waterline and toe of the dune, as determined by the Park Manager, except at archaeological sites within the zone designated by DHR or the Park Manager.

Any dug hole associated with the use of a metal detector must be refilled to the contour of pre-dig conditions using the excavated material.

This exception is for coastal parks, in a zone between the mean high water line (usually the upper limit of the wet sand area) and toe of the dune, as determined by the Park Manager, except at archaeological sites within the zone designated by DHR or the Park Manager. This was done to allow this recreational activity in an area that the Division felt was appropriate and safe. The zone between the waterline and toe of the dune is sand which is routinely dug by children and others building sand castles and other beach activities; the zone is also very dynamic and recovers quickly.

If the Park Manager at a coastal park wants to further restrict the use of metal detectors and prohibit their use in the zone between the waterline and toe of the dune, he/she can do that under authority provided in 62D-2. If the Park Manager intends to do this he/she must post notice to park visitors.

Florida Administrative Code Chapter 62D-2 Operation of Division Recreation Areas and Facilities 62D-2.014 Activities and Recreation (16) Hours.

The Division, in furtherance of the park management practices as stated in Sections 258.004, 258.007, 258.017 and 258.037, Florida Statutes, may close any park or section thereof to the public at any time and for any interval of time, either temporarily or at regular stated intervals and either entirely or only for certain uses. Park closures will be used to provide visitor and employee safety, resource protection, operational efficiency, and facility maintenance. No person shall remain in any closed park or section thereof, unless authorized by the Division or park manager, or their delegate.

Verbal authorization shall be granted by the Division, the park manager, or their delegee, when it is in the best interest of the park, or of the person remaining in the closed area, for safety, protection, construction, or restoration purposes.

3.) Use of Metal Detectors for Archaeological Research Operations Manual
(OM) Chapter 11 - Cultural Resource Management (Revised 6/13/05)

Use of metal detectors, magnetometers or other metal detecting devices is prohibited on all state park lands, including sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks, except for the following:

Archaeological research projects authorized by DHR

Any excavations within designated archaeological sites require permits from DHR. Objects found or recovered under the terms of a permit issued by DHR are property of the State of Florida, with title vested by statute in DHR.
__________________________________________________ _______________

So, I read all the materials very carefully and even went into the full statute on-line to get the entire language of the law. My interpretation is that it is illegal to MD in the water anywhere along the coast of FL except under a very specific tide condition. That is, when you have a high tide and the water is above the mean high tide line. You can then hunt in the water between the high water line and the mean high tide line only. Once the water line recedes below the mean high tide line, it is no longer legal to MD in the water. I know most surf hunters hunt in the water at low tide and based on the law that is illegal. Now, please, I understand that people are going to think or say, "well who is to say where the mean high tide line is, and thus where and when you can MD in the water." Debating the efficacy of the law is not the point of me writing this. I am just providing what the law states and my strict interpretation of it.

I also thought I found a "loop hole" in all of this. The Loop Hole being that the area being MDed would have to have been designated an archaeological site before it would be illegal to MD in the water in that area, but that does not seem to be the case, because if you read further into the law it states ...any land owned or controlled by the state or within the boundaries of a designated state archaeological landmark or landmark zone." All submerged lands along the coast are state sovereign lands and so are controlled by the state. Thus it is illegal to MD there.

Now, there does appear to be a small "loop hole." It has to do with this wording. "(b) Any person who by means of excavation either conducts archaeological field investigations on, or removes or attempts to remove, or defaces, destroys, or otherwise alters any archaeological site or specimen..." To me, this means that if you MD in the water and don't come upon an archaeological site or specimen, but only modern day items you are OK. However, and it is a big however, what if you do dig on an archaeological site or specimen? If you do, you have jsut committed a felony. No small deal for sure. The next question I have is what is considered an Archaeological specimen? Well, it turns out anything older than 50 years from the present year. That is not that old. Any coin you find older than 1963 mint date would qualify. Wow!

So, the aforementioned is what I was told and presented with and my interpretation.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If you ask enough people: "can I pick my own nose?" You will eventually find someone to tell you "no".

So as it pertains to the "ask at each local beach you go to" (their "safe" answer they gave you), or the "not below the water-mark", you can knock yourself silly with "what if's" type things. Ie.: "what if I'm at the water's edge, and the ebbing surf goes up to my ankles, at the exact moment I'm getting a signal. Does that qualify as "under the water?' " and all such stuff. But you have to ask yourself fellows: Did anyone ever really give a r*t@ *ss till tons of md'rs came in asking for sanctions & clarifications? I mean, sure, let's all avoid obvious historic landmarks and such, but beyond that, I think we md'rs are making ourselves a big-bullseye drawing attention to ourselves (as if we are somehow evil or causing damage), when ..... it seems to create the very scrutiny we all wanted to avoid, to begin with! It's as if we can be our own worst enemy.

For example: in my state, along my coast, I have no doubt, that if enough people went asking enough questions, so too would our state-of-CA beaches get some sort of "clarification" or a "no". Yet detectors are a common site on state-owned beaches here. Why? I guess not enough people have sent in pressing inquiries, and I hope it stays that way.

 

[Sandman]

Tom nailed it again.....I knew what he was going to say before I read the first post as it mirrors my thoughts exactly. You don't ask if you can play catch with your daughter do you?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You don't ask if you can play catch with your daughter do you?

what?? You mean you DON'T ask if you can play catch Sandman? Tsk tsk. Afterall, you "might poke someone's eye out" with that ball. There "might be a law", and you "can't be too safe". You thus "might get arrested", and so forth. So I suggest you stop your miscreant activities, go do the right thing, and start asking permission. Tsk Tsk.

I am reminded of an incident to illustrate this, in my own city: About 10 yrs. ago, the newspaper here ran a story about how a particular hobby called "slack-lining" was getting considered as a ban in the city parks. "Slack-lining" is a hobby where a person strings up a rope between two close-by trees, a foot or so off the ground, as a sort of "tight-rope" walking exercise or game or something. Apparently the hobby was gaining in popularity amongst some school kids in town. Well one day, a certain mom (bless her little heart), heard her young son explain what he and his school chums were going to do at the park. She wondered "is this allowed?" So she contacts city hall and asks. I guess the question got bandied about between multiple city people, and eventually landed on the city arborist's desk. He concludes that this may hurt the bark of the trees (where the rope is tightened to it), so he says "no you can't". Now honestly, do you think anyone really cared before her "pressing question"? NO! of COURSE NOT. C'mon guys, take a clue here!!

 

[hondapartshero]

You got it spot on. I've never been kicked out of a park that has no posted signs saying no metal detecting. But if I'm approached I'll politely ask "is it illegal for the person who threw all the trash on the ground that I picked up in my bag for you today?", "is it illegal for dog owners to not pick up the multiple piles of poop I had to step over and around today as I quietly minded my business with my headphones on", "is it illegal to tear up the playing fields with cleats and not repair the grass and not patch the holes that those leave as I fill my holes and leave the ground in the condition I found it?" No one monitors or complains about those people so why do we become the easy target?

 

[G.I.B.]

rbdigger,

Are you an employee of the State of Florida?

Who, specifically wrote the letter?

The person who wrote the letter gave you a somewhat skewed answer concerning the use of a metal detector. The law cited does indeed cover archeological sites and the digging of artifacts. That law is in place to protect listed archeological sites, which are listed with the State of Florida.

If you are NOT in a listed archeological site, hunt away! There is NO GENERAL overall law making the use of a metal detector in the waters off the coast of the state of Florida a crime. The writer is applying a specific law to a very general category, which is incorrect.

I'd be happy to tell the person who wrote that garbage telling everyone that using a MD in the water is a FELONY, exactly when and where I'll be in the water. I invite them to have me arrested.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

G.I.B., and your answer perfectly illustrates the potential outcome of asking enough bored deskbound bureaucrats "can I?". thanx!

 

[lookindown]

rbdigger,

Are you an employee of the State of Florida?

Who, specifically wrote the letter?

The person who wrote the letter gave you a somewhat skewed answer concerning the use of a metal detector. The law cited does indeed cover archeological sites and the digging of artifacts. That law is in place to protect listed archeological sites, which are listed with the State of Florida.

If you are NOT in a listed archeological site, hunt away! There is NO GENERAL overall law making the use of a metal detector in the waters off the coast of the state of Florida a crime. The writer is applying a specific law to a very general category, which is incorrect.

I'd be happy to tell the person who wrote that garbage telling everyone that using a MD in the water is a FELONY, exactly when and where I'll be in the water. I invite them to have me arrested.

I was thinking the exact same thing...whoever told him that, was WRONG, the law is to protect archeological sites...people asking if its legal to metal detect are going to ruin this hobby...would you call and ask someone if you can throw a frisbee? buid a sandcastle? pick up a seashell, there are no signs saying that you can...come on people use some common sense. The official who said no detecting in the water made up his own interpretation of the law and that is a dangerous thing.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... The official who said no detecting in the water made up his own interpretation of the law and that is a dangerous thing.

Yes, and the "dangerous thing" is that ...... guess what that official will do or think the next time he sees an md'r out on the beach? They remember the earlier inquiries, and think "aha! there's one of THEM".

One time I actually heard of a memo that went out in a particular state's park dept, to all rank & file rangers, to "be on the lookout for md'rs, as this activity is not allowed." Guess was precipitatated that? A good intentioned md'r who'd been booted out a certain state park. One in which no one had ever had an issue at before. He figured "I'll get to the bottom of this, get it clarified, so it's not up to the arbitrary whims of individual rangers". So we wrote letters and petitions to state capitol, objecting to his booting, and asking for clarification. BELIEVE ME when it was all said and done, the md'r wished he'd just avoided "just that one ranger" or "just that one park". He could not escape the conclusion that his actions simply cemented something that had very little scrutiny, .... but NOW DID.

 

[cra61]

Good god, someone will be trying to arrest kids digging in the sands soon.

 

[rbdigger]

rbdigger,

Are you an employee of the State of Florida?

Who, specifically wrote the letter?

The person who wrote the letter gave you a somewhat skewed answer concerning the use of a metal detector. The law cited does indeed cover archeological sites and the digging of artifacts. That law is in place to protect listed archeological sites, which are listed with the State of Florida.

If you are NOT in a listed archeological site, hunt away! There is NO GENERAL overall law making the use of a metal detector in the waters off the coast of the state of Florida a crime. The writer is applying a specific law to a very general category, which is incorrect.

I'd be happy to tell the person who wrote that garbage telling everyone that using a MD in the water is a FELONY, exactly when and where I'll be in the water. I invite them to have me arrested.

My inquiry to the DOS had a very specific aim and that was to avoid MDing in the water on any of the many TREASURE SALVAGE LEASES that exist along the east coast of FL where I live. The Sebastian area. Believe me, if you get caught MDing in the water on one of these lease areas you will get arrested and fined big time. It has happened and I cannot afford to be arrested.

I invite any of the people who say, don't worry about asking, to come and MD in the water along the Sebastian, FL area. Good luck with that.

I would not have even of thought to have asked if it was legal if it were not for this very special situation.

The location of the lease areas is not at all easy to determine and thus I had to at least make the effort to get it right to cover my butt, so if approached I have some ammo to come back with.

Now, as far as other areas of the FL coast go, I MD in the water all the time, but if you read the statutes carefully, you do not have to be in an archaeological site to break the law. All you have to do is dig an archaeological item and that is anything over 50 years old by law. Sorry, if you don't like it, but that is what the statute states.

You all can interpret as you see fit. I just presented on the forum what I found during my research, so others might know what the "official" word is on in the water detecting in FL. Interpretation is up to the individual.

Oh, and it was not MDers asking for permission that got these laws on the books. It was in big part the fact that Mel Fisher won a huge legal battle to keep all the treasure from the 1715 fleet he found. The State made sure that never happened again.

Cheers.

 

[Sir Gala Clad]

Yo Ho Ho!

We now know who replaced the pirates enclosing the Caribbean Sea and the Gulf of Mexico on the Spanish Main.

It is La Florida, where piracy is Sovereign!

 

[rbdigger]

Tom, before you go saying "don't ask" please understand the special circumstances behind my initial inquiry to DOS. My inquiry to the DOS had a very specific aim and that was to avoid MDing in the water on any of the many TREASURE SALVAGE LEASES that exist along the east coast of FL where I live. The Sebastian area. Believe me, if you get caught MDing in the water on one of these lease areas you will get arrested and fined big time. It has happened and I cannot afford to be arrested. I MD with my young daughter and it would not set a very good example to her if we got arrested while MDing. Would it?

Do you have any leased areas like this in CA to worry about? Areas that are patrolled looking for anyone violating the lease boundaries?

Sometimes you have to do your homework, due to special circumstances.

I can't help the answer I got back from the person who dealt with my question.

Have a great day.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Why didn't you just search for where the
the treasure leases were, there are many here who could have told you, Asking a government employee is the last person you ask, government employees are the ones trying to gut the 2nd amendment.

As long as you are not on federal land and ask if your on state parks you can hunt any other beaches with no problem, there are only maybe 2 or 3 public beaches off limits by city law....

Don't write any more public officials, all you will do is get them to write another law to outlaw something else...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

rb-digger, I sympathize with your plight. I mean .... afterall, how is someone supposed to know what's "off-limits", unless he "asks", right? But the answer is exactly in what treasure-hunter says: Look it up. All laws have to be posted somewhere, for public viewing afterall. All boundries are usually on maps (like topo maps, for instance, are good at that). Or if you want to be real technical, you can go to county assessors offices, and get it measured right down to the inch

Thus all such fears of "arrests" and "confiscations" and "jail", etc... for ANY place, does not mean that ...ergo ... we should all ask "can I?" type questions. Sure, sometimes you get a correct technical answer. But other times you get someone's personal whim, or princely "no you can't", etc... (when no such rule really existed, or they merely morph something else to fit your pressing question, etc....). No one here is advocating breaking laws. By all means, abide by them. Just saying we all need to be careful not to bump into answers that simply don't hold water, or "no simply because you asked and I'm giving you the 'safe' answer", etc.... Thus if someone is wondering, this wonderful day & age in the internet, there's not a single law or rule or boundry that can't be sluethed out.

This subject comes up quite frequently when it comes to city (county, etc..) parks, for instance. And the same type justification to going and asking, is much the same as you present here (and on the surface, seems quite reasonable): "how was I supposed to know, w/o asking?". The answer is the same: look it up.

You ask about CA, here's an excellent example (since you asked). I'm not saying it's an exact parallel to FL, or your situation, but it does serve to show how some of the rules we end up with, get started:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...why-not-ask-innocuous-public-places-long.html

 

[rbdigger]

Hey, whatever you guys and gals say. I do my best to obey the laws and yes they are out there to be found and believe me I spent many hours going over them, but in the end I wanted someone with clout to help me interpret them. I am not a lawyer and that is what it takes to make sense about a lot of this stuff. But, hey, it appears I was wrong to ask and I am sure my inquiry will result in MDing being outlawed throughout the entire state of FL.

You all have a good day.

 

[MBbeachrat]

I hunt in the water all the time. No one cares , the Park Rangers are great guys. Just don't did up the old gold coins. If you do just put it back in the whole. That's what I do. Metal detecting a beach hurts no one. Just do it and enjoy.