Tom_in_CA
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The issue of when, what, where, etc.... you/we need to "ask permission" (or inquire of laws, etc....) for public places comes up a lot. And for good reason! After all, you can never be too safe, eh? For purposes of this thread, this is NOT for obvious historical monuments, known off-limits federal sacred spots, etc.... This is just for run-of-the-mill beaches, city parks, school yards, etc.... ok? So no one go make the leap "gee, I guess you think we can just tromp on the White house lawn", blah blah blah".
As I read on md'ing websites, people sometimes ask: "can I detect here...? " or "can I detect there....?". Invariably, others will chime in "ask the powers-that-be" (and even to the extent "get it in writing", etc....). I have always suggested that this is the LAST thing you/we want to do. You may simply bring up a subject that .... even if it is not explicity spelled out .... you merely give space for some bureaucrat to simply say "no", just because he/she said so. Or they can morph another rule ("don't disturb the vegetation" or "cultural heritage" stuff) and presto, you've got a "no", where no one ever cared or noticed before.
I began to wonder if there was an example of this theory, at places around me. That is: places where everyone and anyone has detected since the dawn of time, where no one ever had a problem. But that if you asked enough questions, of enough people, far enough up the ladder, you might get a "no".
OK: so where I'm at in CA, there are various sections of our coast line that got green environmental protection status back in the 1970s & '80s. Ie.: no oil-drilling, no kelp harvesting, fishing regulations, building prohibitions, etc..... The logic was simple: There are zones along the coast here that are world-class diving destinations, whale watching, undersea marvels, etc.... Scuba diving, for example, brings people from all over the nation to destinations around the Monterey Peninsula. So eventually, in order to protect and preserve, an over-arching entity called the "Monterey Bay Marine Sanctuary" was formed in 1992. In spite of its name ("Monterey Bay ...") its rules encompass 276 miles of coast-line. All the beaches from north of San Francisco, south to San Luis Obispo. Naturally, beaches within this length, can be city, county, state, and federally owned. If there is any cross-over, silences, or contradictions, the "stricter rule prevails". Here's their website:
http://montereybay.noaa.gov/welcome.html
I decided to use this entity, as a test sample, to see if hunters might in fact get a "no", if we were to "ask". I studied their website material, and found this quotation amongst their list of things that were prohibited:
"Possessing, moving, removing, or injuring, or attempting to possess, move, remove, or injure, a Sanctuary historical resource."
Now I suppose most md'rs would read this, and think "it doesn't mention metal detecting, and I don't particularly think that a mercury dime, etc... is 'historical', so I won't even pay any mind to this". Yet there are others who would say that it is up to our duty to inquire as to whether this applies to metal detecting. Or better yet, get written permission from the proper entities that control. Afterall, you MIGHT find an old coin, right? It MIGHT be considered a historical resource, right? You MIGHT give our hobby a bad name by not inquiring, right? You MIGHT get arrested, equipment confiscated, spend time in jail, and pay fines, right? Afterall, you can't be TOO safe, right?
Mind you, the beaches here are routinely detected, for many decades. (All except a federal beach near SF, where rumor has it, they enforce something, d/t it's federal). For those of us who've been at it since the 1970s, it might seem odd to ask now, if it's simply been done, no problems, for as long as anyone can remember. On Santa Cruz Main beach, for example, there will be 5 or 6 guys plying the beach every Monday morning after the weekend throngs.
Next, I clicked on the "contact us" tab, and sent them this inquiry:
" ..... how is a "historical resource" defined? "
I did not mention my name, not did I mention metal detecting. I gave though, as an example "what if a person were to see a horseshoe sticking out of the sand after some beach erosion? Or pretty surf-polished glass shards?" Here was their answer:
" 1. The terms "historical resource" and "cultural resources" are defined in federal regulations for the National Marine Sanctuary Program at Title 15 of the US Code of Federal Regulations, Section 922.3. (See http://montereybay.noaa.gov/intro/mp/regs.html#code). Objects of special national or cultural significance (e.g. Air Force One) would be immediately considered an historic resource, regardless of age, upon entering the sanctuary. More typically, applicable objects within the sanctuary become historical artifacts when their age exceeds 50 years.
2. In response to your quesions about horse shoes and broken glass, a related incident occurred several years ago. A couple discovered an old wagon wheel (approx 100 years old) exposed within the intertidal zone following a winter storm and took it home. They subsequently had to surrender the wheel to law enforcement authorities, as their collection and possession of it violated both federal and state law. With regard to polished glass shards, an enforcement officer could question removal if he/she felt there was a reasonable possibility that such objects meet the definition of an historical resource. To confirm a violation would require confiscation of the objects and subsequent assessment to determine their age and origin. This might be a practical exercise if, for example, someone were in possession of such objects near a known wrecksite for a vessel that had been carrying a large cargo of glass items. There is no guaranteed answer to your question, however - potential violations for such activities would be case dependent. "
So you tell me: Do you continue to detect if you live here, and something like this never even dawned on you? If you're travelling to CA, do you read stuff like this, and assume you can't detect those beaches? Or do you inquire of locals, who tell you "nah, no one cares" and then just do it? Do you say that all the current beach md'rs in this zone are guilty of failing the md'rs code-of-ethics?
This, to me, just reaks of the climate I think is replicated a LOT of places in the USA. Sure, maybe NOW places get rules and enforcement and clarifications, but how many do you think maybe started like this (where it wasn't specifically spelled out by name, and no one particularly cared), yet when you get enough people asking, petitioning, asking for clarifications, asking for written permission, and PRESTO! You get places that are now off-limits, given enough squeeky wheels. Do you see?
Naturally, in my anonymous inquiries, I didn't mention metal detecting, so it's not an issue here. But you can see that it wouldn't take much of a leap for someone in this bureaucracy to say "no metal detecting" (and perhaps pass down memo's to the rank-&-file rangers) if persons were to specifically ask. I mean, look at the wagon wheel example. Why would a barber dime be any different?
Of course, I don't intend to ever ask, and I hope that no one here (visitors, locals, etc...) ever asks either. Things are just fine! I only use this an example, in the public-innocuous-places-permission thing.
As I read on md'ing websites, people sometimes ask: "can I detect here...? " or "can I detect there....?". Invariably, others will chime in "ask the powers-that-be" (and even to the extent "get it in writing", etc....). I have always suggested that this is the LAST thing you/we want to do. You may simply bring up a subject that .... even if it is not explicity spelled out .... you merely give space for some bureaucrat to simply say "no", just because he/she said so. Or they can morph another rule ("don't disturb the vegetation" or "cultural heritage" stuff) and presto, you've got a "no", where no one ever cared or noticed before.
I began to wonder if there was an example of this theory, at places around me. That is: places where everyone and anyone has detected since the dawn of time, where no one ever had a problem. But that if you asked enough questions, of enough people, far enough up the ladder, you might get a "no".
OK: so where I'm at in CA, there are various sections of our coast line that got green environmental protection status back in the 1970s & '80s. Ie.: no oil-drilling, no kelp harvesting, fishing regulations, building prohibitions, etc..... The logic was simple: There are zones along the coast here that are world-class diving destinations, whale watching, undersea marvels, etc.... Scuba diving, for example, brings people from all over the nation to destinations around the Monterey Peninsula. So eventually, in order to protect and preserve, an over-arching entity called the "Monterey Bay Marine Sanctuary" was formed in 1992. In spite of its name ("Monterey Bay ...") its rules encompass 276 miles of coast-line. All the beaches from north of San Francisco, south to San Luis Obispo. Naturally, beaches within this length, can be city, county, state, and federally owned. If there is any cross-over, silences, or contradictions, the "stricter rule prevails". Here's their website:
http://montereybay.noaa.gov/welcome.html
I decided to use this entity, as a test sample, to see if hunters might in fact get a "no", if we were to "ask". I studied their website material, and found this quotation amongst their list of things that were prohibited:
"Possessing, moving, removing, or injuring, or attempting to possess, move, remove, or injure, a Sanctuary historical resource."
Now I suppose most md'rs would read this, and think "it doesn't mention metal detecting, and I don't particularly think that a mercury dime, etc... is 'historical', so I won't even pay any mind to this". Yet there are others who would say that it is up to our duty to inquire as to whether this applies to metal detecting. Or better yet, get written permission from the proper entities that control. Afterall, you MIGHT find an old coin, right? It MIGHT be considered a historical resource, right? You MIGHT give our hobby a bad name by not inquiring, right? You MIGHT get arrested, equipment confiscated, spend time in jail, and pay fines, right? Afterall, you can't be TOO safe, right?
Mind you, the beaches here are routinely detected, for many decades. (All except a federal beach near SF, where rumor has it, they enforce something, d/t it's federal). For those of us who've been at it since the 1970s, it might seem odd to ask now, if it's simply been done, no problems, for as long as anyone can remember. On Santa Cruz Main beach, for example, there will be 5 or 6 guys plying the beach every Monday morning after the weekend throngs.
Next, I clicked on the "contact us" tab, and sent them this inquiry:
" ..... how is a "historical resource" defined? "
I did not mention my name, not did I mention metal detecting. I gave though, as an example "what if a person were to see a horseshoe sticking out of the sand after some beach erosion? Or pretty surf-polished glass shards?" Here was their answer:
" 1. The terms "historical resource" and "cultural resources" are defined in federal regulations for the National Marine Sanctuary Program at Title 15 of the US Code of Federal Regulations, Section 922.3. (See http://montereybay.noaa.gov/intro/mp/regs.html#code). Objects of special national or cultural significance (e.g. Air Force One) would be immediately considered an historic resource, regardless of age, upon entering the sanctuary. More typically, applicable objects within the sanctuary become historical artifacts when their age exceeds 50 years.
2. In response to your quesions about horse shoes and broken glass, a related incident occurred several years ago. A couple discovered an old wagon wheel (approx 100 years old) exposed within the intertidal zone following a winter storm and took it home. They subsequently had to surrender the wheel to law enforcement authorities, as their collection and possession of it violated both federal and state law. With regard to polished glass shards, an enforcement officer could question removal if he/she felt there was a reasonable possibility that such objects meet the definition of an historical resource. To confirm a violation would require confiscation of the objects and subsequent assessment to determine their age and origin. This might be a practical exercise if, for example, someone were in possession of such objects near a known wrecksite for a vessel that had been carrying a large cargo of glass items. There is no guaranteed answer to your question, however - potential violations for such activities would be case dependent. "
So you tell me: Do you continue to detect if you live here, and something like this never even dawned on you? If you're travelling to CA, do you read stuff like this, and assume you can't detect those beaches? Or do you inquire of locals, who tell you "nah, no one cares" and then just do it? Do you say that all the current beach md'rs in this zone are guilty of failing the md'rs code-of-ethics?
This, to me, just reaks of the climate I think is replicated a LOT of places in the USA. Sure, maybe NOW places get rules and enforcement and clarifications, but how many do you think maybe started like this (where it wasn't specifically spelled out by name, and no one particularly cared), yet when you get enough people asking, petitioning, asking for clarifications, asking for written permission, and PRESTO! You get places that are now off-limits, given enough squeeky wheels. Do you see?
Naturally, in my anonymous inquiries, I didn't mention metal detecting, so it's not an issue here. But you can see that it wouldn't take much of a leap for someone in this bureaucracy to say "no metal detecting" (and perhaps pass down memo's to the rank-&-file rangers) if persons were to specifically ask. I mean, look at the wagon wheel example. Why would a barber dime be any different?
Of course, I don't intend to ever ask, and I hope that no one here (visitors, locals, etc...) ever asks either. Things are just fine! I only use this an example, in the public-innocuous-places-permission thing.
And what would happen, with the specifics/legalities I point out here, if persons were to seek permission in my example case? 
