HART PAPERS... ANOTHER "cover-story"? HAZLEWOOD/HART Ciphers?

[ECS]

If you would take the time to actually read and understand a post, I was quoting the rest of the section in the Hart Papers about the alleged meeting with Ward that Laf neglected to include, you know the part " created the suspicion that the story might have been made up instead of founded on fact".
You need to inquire of Laf his reason for excluding that portion from the Hart Papers.
Are we done?

 

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[Old Silver]

If you would take the time to actually read and understand a post, I was quoting the rest of the section in the Hart Papers about the alleged meeting with Ward that Laf neglected to include, you know the part " created the suspicion that the story might have been made up instead of founded on fact".
You need to inquire of Laf his reason for excluding that portion from the Hart Papers.
Are we done?

Another nice putdown of a poster's understanding. I've come to expect it.

You quoted part of the same story that you questioned Laf for quoting. You asked him how he could believe part of it but not all of it. Then I asked you the same thing, since you too quoted part of that same story, just the part you believe. So what would be the difference?

 

[ECS]

You do seem to maintain that 4 minute response time to my posts.
As you are well aware, I answered that question on another thread where you posted the same question.

 

[Old Silver]

You do seem to maintain that 4 minute response time to my posts.
As you are well aware, I answered that question on another thread where you posted the same question.

You time people's post responses? Wow. So, just in case there was any doubt about what I've been saying about you trying to get people turned against me, even the mods, all anyone has to do is look. Even going so far as to post my response times. Are you really that desperate to get me banned? You'll probably get your wish.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

...and now you use an account in the HART PAPERS to prove the Beale story true.
Really?

ECS you can do what the Hart's did, Unplug your PC or Mac and when the monitor is dead start staring into the screen and ask it questions were the Beale Treasure is . I hope that it does not respond !

 

[TN_Guest1523]

...and now you use an account in the HART PAPERS to prove the Beale story true.
Really?

I don't even say the Beale Story as being true in its whole, But I can decode the ciphers and glean what info I need from them as I have done . You don't throw out the Baby with the dirty water from a bath, right ?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

MAY be interesting to compare the CIPHERS in the Beale PAPERS Pamphlet & the Hazlewood/Hart Ciphers...

Has ANYONE done it, yet...? Inquiring MINDS wanna know!

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Has ANYONE done it, yet...? Inquiring MINDS wanna know!

Yes, the cipher numbers for the Hart/Beale ciphers 20-30 % not the same . I have seen many sets of numbers that are not the same as the original Beale ciphers .

 

[franklin]

Is there anyway you can prove to us that the original Beale Cyphers are authentic. By your post you seem to imply that all the other cypher texts including the Harts were wrong by 20-30%. Can you verify without giving away your "KEY" or deciphering method? As Rebel KGC said inquiring minds want to know?

I have always believed the Hart Cyphers were the original cypher papers. Clayton Hart's brother George Hart said the cyphers had been changed in the Job Print Pamphlet. So if you used the cyphers from the Job Print Pamphlet how could you get a "Clear Text" to the decipherment?

By the way the Hart Cyphers were not off that much not even close to 20-30% more like 2-3%.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Is there anyway you can prove to us that the original Beale Cyphers are authentic. By your post you seem to imply that all the other cypher texts including the Harts were wrong by 20-30%. Can you verify without giving away your "KEY" or deciphering method? As Rebel KGC said inquiring minds want to know?

I have always believed the Hart Cyphers were the original cypher papers. Clayton Hart's brother George Hart said the cyphers had been changed in the Job Print Pamphlet. So if you used the cyphers from the Job Print Pamphlet how could you get a "Clear Text" to the decipherment?

By the way the Hart Cyphers were not off that much not even close to 20-30% more like 2-3%.

We are referring to the adjusted and non adjusted ciphers, It is my understanding the Hart's adjusted there numbers to have a more perfect C2 decoding with no mistakes from the original ciphers in the Beale Papers . Just my understanding tho !

 

[franklin]

We are referring to the adjusted and non adjusted ciphers, It is my understanding the Hart's adjusted there numbers to have a more perfect C2 decoding with no mistakes from the original ciphers in the Beale Papers . Just my understanding tho !

I wish you could explain that one. Why would the Hart's change the ciphers to have a more perfect decoding of C2 with no mistakes? They said the original ciphers in the Job Print Pamphlet had been changed and the only way they could know that is if Newton Hazelwood had told them that he had the original code papers. So in a way that would make Newton Hazelwood the author of the Job Print Pamphlet. Also Pauline Innis found the ironbox in SE Roanoke, Va in the possession of the Otey Family. So it would seem to me that the Hart Brothers Clayton and George were well informed----they knew they had the original ciphers and they knew where the ironbox was located. That is a lot more than we know after more than a hundred ten years later. I will stick with the Hart's Cipher Sheets as original.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

I wish you could explain that one. Why would the Hart's change the ciphers to have a more perfect decoding of C2 with no mistakes? They said the original ciphers in the Job Print Pamphlet had been changed and the only way they could know that is if Newton Hazelwood had told them that he had the original code papers. So in a way that would make Newton Hazelwood the author of the Job Print Pamphlet. Also Pauline Innis found the ironbox in SE Roanoke, Va in the possession of the Otey Family. So it would seem to me that the Hart Brothers Clayton and George were well informed----they knew they had the original ciphers and they knew where the ironbox was located. That is a lot more than we know after more than a hundred ten years later. I will stick with the Hart's Cipher Sheets as original.

Beale Papers line one C2
115, 73, 24, 807, 37, 52, 49, 17, 31, 62, 647, 22, 7, 15, 140, 47, 29, 107, 79, 84, 56, 239,
115, 73, 24, 818, 37, 52, 49, 17, 31, 62, 657, 22, 7, 15, 140, 47, 29, 107, 79, 84, 56, 238,
Hart Papers line one C2

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Beale Papers line one C2
115, 73, 24, 807, 37, 52, 49, 17, 31, 62, 647, 22, 7, 15, 140, 47, 29, 107, 79, 84, 56, 239,
115, 73, 24, 818, 37, 52, 49, 17, 31, 62, 657, 22, 7, 15, 140, 47, 29, 107, 79, 84, 56, 238,
Hart Papers line one C2

Just happen to see this one day after confirming the adjusted version of the cipher's that were a % off from what the Beale Pamphlet and the Harts Book have for numbers from a private collection .
There are some other Ciphers out there that are called the Beale Paper Cipher that I found had some other numbers than just these two .

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I wish you could explain that one. Why would the Hart's change the ciphers to have a more perfect decoding of C2 with no mistakes? They said the original ciphers in the Job Print Pamphlet had been changed and the only way they could know that is if Newton Hazelwood had told them that he had the original code papers. So in a way that would make Newton Hazelwood the author of the Job Print Pamphlet. Also Pauline Innis found the ironbox in SE Roanoke, Va in the possession of the Otey Family. So it would seem to me that the Hart Brothers Clayton and George were well informed----they knew they had the original ciphers and they knew where the ironbox was located. That is a lot more than we know after more than a hundred ten years later. I will stick with the Hart's Cipher Sheets as original.

Well "said", "franklin"... NH had the CIPHERS (ONLY) probably BEFORE the Beale PAPERS Pamphlet was finished/released in to the GENERAL PUBLIC in 1885; MAYBE, since April, 1865. At the time that he got Clayton Hart to "copy" the CIPHERS, there were NO "Beale story", NO Beale Treasure, NADA! Just CIPHERS! 1865-1885; TWENTY YEARS! Heh...

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Well "said", "franklin"... NH had the CIPHERS (ONLY) probably BEFORE the Beale PAPERS Pamphlet was finished/released in to the GENERAL PUBLIC in 1885; MAYBE, since April, 1865. At the time that he got Clayton Hart to "copy" the CIPHERS, there were NO "Beale story", NO Beale Treasure, NADA! Just CIPHERS! 1865-1885; TWENTY YEARS! Heh...

The Harts had a copy of the ciphers in 1903, we know this because that is when they confirmed it with Ward right ?

 

[ECS]

Do the Hart Papers say they confirmed the ciphers, or the validity Beale story, of which two conflicting opinions are given by the Harts.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Do the Hart Papers say they confirmed the ciphers, or the validity Beale story, of which two conflicting opinions are given by the Harts.

NOPE!

 

[franklin]

The Harts had a copy of the ciphers in 1903, we know this because that is when they confirmed it with Ward right ?

No the Harts obtained the cipher papers in 1897 according to George Hart Papers. The Hart Brothers do not confirm the ciphers but Clayton Hart interviews James Beverly Ward and his son in 1903 and they both confirm the Beale Treasure Story. But this is third hand information. James Beverly Ward and son to Clayton Hart and Clayton Hart to his brother George Hart. This may or may not confirm the story. As Jean Laf says we still need two more confirmations to make the story true.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

No the Harts obtained the cipher papers in 1897 according to George Hart Papers. The Hart Brothers do not confirm the ciphers but Clayton Hart interviews James Beverly Ward and his son in 1903 and they both confirm the Beale Treasure Story. But this is third hand information. James Beverly Ward and son to Clayton Hart and Clayton Hart to his brother George Hart. This may or may not confirm the story. As Jean Laf says we still need two more confirmations to make the story true.

1. Beale Papers confirmation .
2. Hart Papers confirmation .

 

[franklin]

Then you except second hand information "Beale Papers" and third hand information "Hart Papers" as fact. I don't think so.