Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[ECS]

... Good lord, man, your entire fiction theory is based on things and events and people not directly referenced in the narration. Everybody from Hutter, Risque, Oteys, to this relative, that relative, and all manner of folks and unfounded notions in between, such as fabulous libraries containing the works of just about every material source you believe was in it...

The old sidestep avoiding answer as to where certain names, locations ,and events you claim are the real story behind the job pamphlet story you keep spouting seems to have sprung a leak.
If you evidence was as solid as you claim, you wouldn't spend all that energy trying to disprove my posts and actually present your evidence that actually connects to the presented Beale story.
Instead, all you provide are links to this or that, be it Adams-Onis Treaty or about various pirates and state, can't you see the connection? Its hard to see "connexions" to the presented Beale story where there are none.
If there were you would have already produced them.
What upsets you about the Risqué extended bloodline influence on Ward's 1885 Beale Papers and those behind the creation, copyrighting and publishing, printing, advertising, and sale of that dime novel job pamphlet, is that as hard as you try to make light of what I have brought forth, YOU CAN NOT DISPROVE these relationships and connections to the presented Beale story.
You attack the messenger not the message because of this frustration.
As much as you attempt to deny it, the 1885 Beale Papers is a Virginia adventure/treasure dime novel with play along ciphers created and published to be sold in Virginia.
All the French, British, Spanish scholarly works you can throw into this ever increasing miasma history mix is going to change that very basic fact.
If you can produce absolute proof, the "smoking gun" or "bombshell" do it, make it so, if you can't, heed the word's of the "unknown author", "let the matter alone".

 

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[franklin]

The old sidestep avoiding answer as to where certain names, locations ,and events you claim are the real story behind the job pamphlet story you keep spouting seems to have sprung a leak.
If you evidence was as solid as you claim, you wouldn't spend all that energy trying to disprove my posts and actually present your evidence that actually connects to the presented Beale story.
Instead, all you provide are links to this or that, be it Adams-Onis Treaty or about various pirates and state, can't you see the connection? Its hard to see "connexions" to the presented Beale story where there are none.
If there were you would have already produced them.
What upsets you about the Risqué extended bloodline influence on Ward's 1885 Beale Papers and those behind the creation, copyrighting and publishing, printing, advertising, and sale of that dime novel job pamphlet, is that as hard as you try to make light of what I have brought forth, YOU CAN NOT DISPROVE these relationships and connections to the presented Beale story.
You attack the messenger not the message because of this frustration.
As much as you attempt to deny it, the 1885 Beale Papers is a Virginia adventure/treasure dime novel with play along ciphers created and published to be sold in Virginia.
All the French, British, Spanish scholarly works you can throw into this ever increasing miasma history mix is going to change that very basic fact.
If you can produce absolute proof, the "smoking gun" or "bombshell" do it, make it so, if you can't, heed the word's of the "unknown author", "let the matter alone".

X100

 

[bigscoop]

Glad to hear it as now we can maybe debate in more detail. So tell me, what is "your opinion" of the works of noted historians in this area such and Davis and a few of the French, British, and Spanish scholars? I'm very interested in hearing your summations in regards to their work. Finally this thread is going to start addressing some of the more intimate details, materials, etc. Can't wait to hear "your personal take" on all of this! I'll be anxiously waiting your reply.....take your pick and let's get started.

Do-de-do-de-do.....I'll give you as much time as you need to get all your notes in order. I'm no rush. In the meantime, however, is ok with you if I continue to progress this thread by providing even more topic related info? I think we're eclipsing that 80-100 pointless post gap. Maybe if I post more I'll hit on something you're already personally familiar with?

 

[bigscoop]

X100

Glad to see you back, Franklin. But I thought you said you were done with this thread. Apparently not, hu. Maybe if you continue to stick around ECS will let me post even more thread related content.

 

[bigscoop]

Galveston
Coushatta
Atascosita
Deweyville
Trinity
Sabine
Red
Grand Bayou
Natches
Mississippi
St. Louis
New Orleans

 

[ECS]

Only St Louis from the above list is mentioned in the 1885 Beale Papers in this sidestep avoiding the fact that you can not disprove the Risqué extended family bloodline relationship and connection to the creation, copyright and publishing, printing, advertising and sale of the Beale job pamphlet.

Since we all have been through this "new" theory before that springs from Laflin's Forged Lafitte memoirs that you keep pushing, care to explain this June 4, 1850 entry:
"Mr Ward, Mr Kingsley, and Mr Peabody seem to me to be very honest, nice men".

Lafitte mentions Ward 25 years after Lafitte's reported death.
That reminds me of Thomas Beale writing and sending letters from St Louis to Morriss after he died.
Will these answers be found in the French, British, and Spanish documents that have been studied and written about by those country's scholars as you make reference in another open ended statement that you never present a follow up, ever.

When questioned , you ignore the question with some clever reply aimed at the one who questioned.
It appears that you can not present absolute proof, the "Smoking gun", or the promised "bombshell", so maybe its time to "let the matter alone" as the Beale Papers "unknown author" advises.

 

[ECS]

Glad to see you back, Franklin. But I thought you said you were done with this thread. Apparently not, hu. Maybe if you continue to stick around ECS will let me post even more thread related content.

Please don't use me as an excuse for not posting content related to the Beale story.
You haven't yet, so why start now?

 

[franklin]

Glad to see you back, Franklin. But I thought you said you were done with this thread. Apparently not, hu. Maybe if you continue to stick around ECS will let me post even more thread related content.

Well you should post more thread related content so far we have seen none? As far as blowing off the cast iron lids, I don't think you have even found the POTS yet.

 

[bigscoop]

Please don't use me as an excuse for not posting content related to the Beale story.
You haven't yet, so why start now?

Post 265 got you stumped? and as for Davis and others you have absolutely no idea how to discuss those materials because you have absolutely ZERO clue as to what or who I'm even referencing. So it's pretty clear that you've not researched much of anything relating to the content of this thread which is why you can only pursue "argument" instead of debate on the topic of this thread.

So far I've offered topic related links to information that you've not even offered a whisper in debate, I recently offered you a list of names to which you only vaguely recognize a few, I've offered you several topic related quotes and still not a single whisper of topic related debate. How come? The truth is that this topic is completely out of your league which is why you are reduced to only relaying on the opinions of others. In fact, the only source you have attempted to pursue any manner of debate is the memoirs, a subject I finally allowed to become a topic of this thread just to see if had even bothered to read it and research its contents which you clearly have not, your only manner of debate once again being the posting of the opinions of others.

ECS, if you want to hold debate then first you have to educate yourself on the topic. I can say the same thing in regards to the ciphers and your quoting of the Friedmans, the ciphers and their design and construction being yet another topic that you have clearly avoided spending any time analyzing for yourself so you can form a personally educated opinion.

Now you can say that I'm avoiding this and that but the simple truth is that you just don't have the personal knowledge to debate the "this" and "that" which is the topic of this thread, which is why you continue to try to get these topics to switch course. This is the same reason why I don't go into other areas of these forums and attempt to hold debate in topics where I have little to knowledge about those subjects.

True, what I'm presenting isn't common direction to the all the usual Beale related direction, but if you want to hold debate on those topics then unfortunately you're going to have to educate yourself on those topics. Not everything can be successfully defended by the repeating of all the local lore and romance and opinions that is typically contained in the vast majority of these Beale related threads. I'll wait, I'm in no rush, and in fact I've even given you numerous references as to where you can start.

You've even been reduced to attempting to shift the entire direction of the thread by posting comments like this; "Please don't use me as an excuse for not posting content related to the Beale story" because you have absolutely no clue how to debate "the thread topic" that is proposed to being related to Beale. And, I might add, you continue to slice the throat of your own theory in the process.

Now whenever you're ready to hold topic related debate you just let me know and we'll get started. I'm in no hurry and I'll wait for you as long as it takes.

 

[ECS]

If this is the "GREAT FINAL HISTORICALY SOLVED STORY BEHIND THE COPYRIGHTED BEALE PAPERS STORY" why play all the games on these threads?
So far this presented fantasy, as with your others, are not worth the candle, so you resort to the ploy of "I know more than you",
which, concerning these fantasy historical "connexions" to the Beale story is true, is probably true for me and others on these threads, as you constantly continue to fabricate them.
You tout the Adams-Onis Treaty as basis for the Beale story and jumped for joy when I presented Major James Beverly Risque's connection , but still you deny any and all ties of his extended family bloodline to his grandson's copyrighted and published 1885 Beale Papers.
Instead you pull quotes from forged memoir as evidence, and well questioned about this, dance a little sidestep and change the subject by telling others they lack the "arcane" knowledge that you possess. If you had this knowledge, you would have produced it many, many posts ago on several threads.
But when push comes to shove, its always "you don't known enough about the subject". PLEASE!
If your real story game is worth the candle, time to play it to the end as it is fizzling and near the point of burning out.

 

[bigscoop]

If this is the "GREAT FINAL HISTORICALY SOLVED STORY BEHIND THE COPYRIGHTED BEALE PAPERS STORY" why play all the games on these threads?
So far this presented fantasy, as with your others, are not worth the candle, so you resort to the ploy of "I know more than you",
which, concerning these fantasy historical "connexions" to the Beale story is true, is probably true for me and others on these threads, as you constantly continue to fabricate them.
You tout the Adams-Onis Treaty as basis for the Beale story and jumped for joy when I presented Major James Beverly Risque's connection , but still you deny any and all ties of his extended family bloodline to his grandson's copyrighted and published 1885 Beale Papers.
Instead you pull quotes from forged memoir as evidence, and well questioned about this, dance a little sidestep and change the subject by telling others they lack the "arcane" knowledge that you possess. If you had this knowledge, you would have produced it many, many posts ago on several threads.
But when push comes to shove, its always "you don't known enough about the subject". PLEASE!
If your real story game is worth the candle, time to play it to the end as it is fizzling and near the point of burning out.

Then start debating "the topics that have been presented." You said I was wrong about your depth of knowledge in the various areas of information I have presented into this thread.....but so far it appears that I'm spot on. You have not countered any of the Jackson information I've posted, you have not countered any of the pardon information I have posted, you have no countered any of Saint Louis Corp I have posted, you have not countered any of the Monroe Address information that I have posted, you have not countered any of the Uptown information I have posted, you have not countered any of the Memoir related information I have posted, you have not countered the Mexico Sherman summation yet, and so on and so on and so on......thus far all you have done is to present the opinions of others, not a single point of contrary debate of your own accord. I don't know, I lost count, have you consumed 100 post in this thread yet? If we were debating the history of the extended Risque bloodline or the Civil War, etc., no doubt you could debate with a lot of educated information and opinion, but we're not, the topic of this thread having nothing to do with your areas of personal interest and expertise. So, sticking to "the topic" of the thread the floor is still open....what you got?

Galveston
Coushatta
Atascosita
Deweyville
Trinity
Sabine
Red
Grand Bayou
Natches
Mississippi
St. Louis
New Orleans

The above, which I previously posted, is all relevant to how smuggled merchandise was moved, this including slaves, and this for the most part is just east of the Mississippi. Do you recognize these three? Coushatta Atascosita Deweyville, if you've spent any time at all researching the topic you should.

 

[ECS]

I have Bigscoop, and ,as with all your previous pet theories, there in NO direct relation, connection, relevance to the Beale story that Ward copyrighted in 1885.
AS I have mentioned, it is time to cease with these open ended "I know something none of you do" questions, and if you do have that absolute undeniable direct "connexion" to the Beale story, bring it forth.
Its not about "what I got", that has been presented may times, but what you continue to allude that you got.
So far it appears to all what you got are suspect facts from a forgers work with entries made 20+ years after Lafitte's reported death,you have been asked how Lafitte accomplished this, but with all questions concerning your claims, its always ignore and sidestep, and posting a random list of names and locations avoiding legitimate questions presented.
If you expect others to answer your leading open ended question, its time you answered the questions asked of you.
All game, no candle, no worth, just never ending play.

 

[bigscoop]

ECS, here's what you're failing to realize in all of your "has nothing to do with the Beale papers" claims.
I have made several attempts now in trying to get you "directly engage in debate over the presented topics of this thread" even going as far as to presenting details such as the Lynchburg and Richmond slave markets and Buford's renting of slaves, all "local" histories, and yet not even a peep from you on any of this, which was actually quite surprising. All I did get from you was "it has nothing to do with the Beale papers." Why?

You're entire rebuttal is that "it has nothing to do with the Beale papers." But here's the thing, the Beale mystery begins as a complete unknown and if you don't research these things in length then how can you possibly determine that, "it has nothing to do with the Beale papers?" Are you relaying on a crystal ball? Perhaps the opinions of others? Or, are you just locked in so stubbornly in the total defense of your own pet theory that you don't even care to entertain such possibilities? Honestly, even when Jean and others have posted information that was worthy of further investigation/discussion some of you simply set your minds to do all that you could to disrupt the discredit those very valid points being made. Why is that? Personally, I'm miffed by it all and I've come to the conclusion that a few of you are simply here to pursue one thing and one thing only........"pointless argument." The mystery itself no longer being of any interest to you, it's all about the pursuit of argument and the last word, even when that last word buries your own pet theory in the process.

 

[bigscoop]

So far it appears to all what you got are suspect facts from a forgers work with entries made 20+ years after Lafitte's reported death,you have been asked how Lafitte accomplished this, but with all questions concerning your claims, its always ignore and sidestep, and posting a random list of names and locations avoiding legitimate questions presented.

See what I mean. Another reason why I question if you even read any of these post. All you have to do is to look for the post where I addressed this very issue in reply to one of Franklin's post about this very issue. "Which story of Laffitte's death do you want to accept, as there are several?" This FACT then only serving to bolster the claim that many rumors were started regarding his death. So there you go, once again WAY out in left field and entirely uneducated on yet another point of rebuttal and claim that you have made. You really need to start focusing on attacking one thread or poster at a time, apparently you're so busy swinging that war club in so many different threads you're spreading your offensives way too thin and letting the enemy through. Would you like me to find that reply I made to Franklin's post for you?

You see, this is what happens when you rely solely on the opinions of others, without first researching why those conclusions are being made. The simple truth is this, there is no conclusive proof of a date of death for Jean Laffitte, never has been. What there is are some "generally accepted dates of death" but once you start inquiring/investigating you'll quickly discover that the actual date of the man's death still remains a mystery.

Also in regards to the opinions of others, you'd better research what source materials they are drawing from and when they drew them, and then you'd better try to locate those source materials yourself so you can review them for yourself. Many times you'll discover that those opinions aren't as rock solid as it might appear, or you'll discover that only limited source materials were used, or outdated materials, or even personal influences helped render those opinions, etc., etc. Or you can just take the easy and quick road and quote folks. Up to you.

 

[ECS]

Once again, no reply to questions posed.
So if we are unable to do our own research and do not understand all this fantastic information that you post, instead of telling us that we no nothing about American history and this "REAL" story behind the Beale story, why don't you just come out and present this absolute undeniable connection "bombshell"?
That is all that has been asked of you, but asking does seem to upset you. Why is that?
Is that because after all these "bombshell" claims, there is no bombshell, no candle, just game?
Really, Bigscoop, I, as well as others, are tired of playing your "I know something you don't know game" with these random lists that never lead to Thomas J Beale by name, or to Ward's copyrighted Beale Papers.
You do understand this is providing evidence that the Beale perilous expedition and treasure vault exist outside of the dime novel?

 

[ECS]

ECS, here's what you're failing to realize in all of your "has nothing to do with the Beale papers" claims.
I have made several attempts now in trying to get you "directly engage in debate over the presented topics of this thread" even going as far as to presenting details such as the Lynchburg and Richmond slave markets and Buford's renting of slaves, all "local" histories, and yet not even a peep from you on any of this, which was actually quite surprising. All I did get from you was "it has nothing to do with the Beale papers." Why?...

Because none of this is relevant to presented Beale story in Ward's 1885 copyrighted dime novel job pamphlet.
PS: There is NO reference to the slave trade in the Beale Papers, so why do you keep bringing that into the conversation?
Is there an agenda behind these NOT in the Beale story posts of yours?

 

[bigscoop]

A while back a member of these forums suggested that you all wait until all of the evidence had been presented before you started jumping to conclusions and began attacking the theory. That was good advice but a notion you obviously just couldn't/can't tolerate. We're now over 275 post in this thread, only a few of them having anything at all to do with the topic of this thread and only a few of them containing "some of the evidence" that was intended to be posted/presented here.

"yadda-yadda-yadda"....you're nearly eclipsing the 100 pointless post mark and still not a single post in direct rebuttal to any of the evidence I have posted.

 

[bigscoop]

Once again, no reply to questions posed.

What, you can't read? You asked how it was possible for some who allegedly died in 1823 to pen something in 1847. "How do you know that he died in 1823?" If you can establish this with absolute certainty then you're the only person on earth who can, something you would be aware of had you taken the time to research "those opinions" that have been "concluded by others."

See, this is what you're not getting......I'm presenting the research results "of my own efforts' and you are trying to counter "with the conclusions and summations of others" without ever even researching the histories of those summations. "You read post and books and reference internet sources, etc., I read the actual source materials and then form my own conclusions." HUGE DIFFERENCE!

 

[ECS]

If you say so, Bigscoop.
So you have had access to the original handwritten memoirs of Jean Lafitte that john Laflin forged?
...and verified the ink and paper and have special knowledge of when Jean Lafitte died than what was reported in the newspapers of that period, or that Lafitte actually penned those memoir entries after 1823?
Have you compared the 1826 work of William S Spear and the 1883 work of Charles Gayarre to the information contained in Laflin's forgery?
Do you know what line of work the Laflin family was involved, and how some of that is reflected in the fraudulent memoir entries?

 

[ECS]

A while back a member of these forums suggested that you all wait until all of the evidence had been presented before you started jumping to conclusions and began attacking the theory. That was good advice but a notion you obviously just couldn't/can't tolerate. We're now over 275 post in this thread, only a few of them having anything at all to do with the topic of this thread and only a few of them containing "some of the evidence" that was intended to be posted/presented here.

"yadda-yadda-yadda"....you're nearly eclipsing the 100 pointless post mark and still not a single post in direct rebuttal to any of the evidence I have posted.

Could it be because you have not presented any evidence connected to the Thomas Beale character of Ward's 1885 copyrighted Beale Papers, only historical gaga!
So far you have been beating around the baneberry bush expecting a red legged tarantula to jump out with "TJB" initials on its back while playing a candle game, that neither been nimble nor quick.