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  1. #16

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Big scoop, you say:

    "Doing nothing already has an established track record of steady losses. Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer......"

    [emphasis mine on "doing nothing"]

    But that's just the point big-scoop, we hobbyist HAVE been doing SOMETHING. And that "something" is often detrimental to our very goal. The goal of: lack of rules. And that "something" has resulted in a host of places off-limits. And THAT is the "something" what I'm saying to have a cessation of. Namely: going around grovelling, asking permission, seeking sanctions, seeking to have permits, etc.... THOSE are the things (in more than 50% of the time, IMHO) that is hurting us, and getting rules written to "address the pressing issue" that we md'rs keep bringing to the tables. So my advice here is not "doing nothing", it's DOING SOMETHING! The cessation of the silliness that is bringing about the very rules and laws we seek to avoid! So you see, I do not advocate "doing nothing". The "something" I advocate is for us to stop being our own worst enemy and creating this self-fulfilling prophecy. See the irony?
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Apr 07, 2012 at 01:11 PM.

  2. #17
    us
    Aug 2011
    Maine
    Garrett GTAx 500, Teknetics G2, Garrett Pro Pointer
    298
    65 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt-A-Lot View Post
    I have truely been thinking all these years...I've been keeping this to myself, But if it helps in anyway to keep the hobby alive then here we go...
    As i was growing up, and living up north i had to purchase a fishing license...Per season, I only used it once but i wanted to be legal incase if someone asked if i had 1, Only used it once didn't catch much but it was like $16.00 for the license. I truely didn't know where the money went to, probably for the town that it was issued in. For road repairs or what ever they saw fit....Hunting is the same way had to get a license if you wanted to go out there to hunt for hunting season...And same thing again what they used the money from the license was probably for the town it was issued in....Now We have alot and i do mean alot of avid Metal detector hunters out there. In my own opinion and which it is an opinion...Workers from the city, county, might see differently if we purchased a Metal Detector license, for the season for the year what ever...With the money that they collect from us would go help the county that was issued in...And if someone mis treats any form of land and they get caught they will loose their license to metal detect till next year...At least with knowing this we all will be careful at what we do...Now i would pay anything to get a license to metal detect if i knew i can go out and metal detect, Mostly beaches is where i would probably go...I myself want to keep this exciting hobby around. So i am thinking of any ideas where we all can meet in the middle and all be happy...
    Like i said this is just my opinion... And In my opinion i think this will be a good idea I turely don't want to loose the ability to metal detect and i am sure everyone else here feels the same.... Thank You!!!!!!
    Revenue from hunting and fishing licenses goes to the state not the city it was issued from. Some cities do require a permit for detecting, but oftentimes it is free, so it's not done for revenue purposes. If the state were to step in and require a metal detecting license like they do for hunting and fishing then why not charge for a swimming license, hiking license, frisbee throwing license, and a license for any other activity people do in public places.
    bazinga likes this.

  3. #18
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Big scoop, you say:

    "Doing nothing already has an established track record of steady losses. Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer......"

    [emphasis mine on "doing nothing"]

    But that's just the point big-scoop, we hobbyist HAVE been doing SOMETHING. And that "something" is often detrimental to our very goal. The goal of: lack of rules. And that "something" has resulted in a host of places off-limits. And THAT is the "something" what I'm saying to have a cessation of. Namely: going around grovelling, asking permission, seeking sanctions, seeking to have permits, etc.... THOSE are the things (in more than 50% of the time, IMHO) that is hurting us, and getting rules written to "address the pressing issue" that we md'rs keep bringing to the tables. So my advice here is not "doing nothing", it's DOING SOMETHING! The cessation of the silliness that is bringing about the very rules and laws we seek to avoid! So you see, I do not advocate "doing nothing". The "something" I advocate is for us to stop being our own worst enemy and creating this self-fulfilling prophecy. See the irony?
    Tom, again, you really need to do a lot more research, and a much wider scope of research on the subject. Sure, some of it has been brought on by the actions of a few, will always be that way. But you are really missing the bigger picture by focusing all of your insight on a very tiny fraction of the overall causes and reasons. If you really think that "grovelling, asking permission, seeking sanctions, seeking to have permits, etc..." by hobbyist has caused 50% of laws and restrictions, well,.....it's just not true. Your statement that there is some "goal to have a lack of rules",....? Obviously you've not been paying attention as it's actually quite the reverse of that. Rules are a good thing and they are required, and "yes" everyone should at least make an effort to make themselves aware of the rules wherever they hunt....this failure has probably hurt our hobby as much as anything else, that and the total disregard for rules that are in place. On one hand you say you understand the need for rules, on the other hand you advise people not go about seeking those rules. But in any case, these are your opinions and you have the right to them, just as I have the right to mine. Obviously we're both steadfast in our personal views and positions.

  4. #19
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by smcdmc View Post
    Revenue from hunting and fishing licenses goes to the state not the city it was issued from.
    True, but it doesn't have to be that way. Also, a great deal of this generated revenue is used to support public activities within various counties and near, or in, effected cities and the surrounding areas, which helps to attract additional revenues to these areas. This is quite common all over the country and many of these counties and cities are reliant on the revenues generated from those state supported activities.

  5. #20

    May 2005
    829
    97 times
    While this might be better thread for legal issues forum, I'll answer here. Most of the bans that people report on here do not exist or are never enforced. Best wishes, George (MN)
    Keppy, Tom_in_CA and bazinga like this.

  6. #21
    us
    Aug 2007
    milan ohio
    Minelab Sov, Garrett Antique
    191
    16 times
    Quote Originally Posted by smcdmc View Post
    Revenue from hunting and fishing licenses goes to the state not the city it was issued from. Some cities do require a permit for detecting, but oftentimes it is free, so it's not done for revenue purposes. If the state were to step in and require a metal detecting license like they do for hunting and fishing then why not charge for a swimming license, hiking license, frisbee throwing license, and a license for any other activity people do in public places.
    So, why is there a charge to hunt and fish?

  7. #22
    Charter Member
    us
    IT COULD BE A VALUABLE PRIZE "YOU NEVER KNOW"

    Nov 2006
    N.E. Ohio on lake Erie
    ** WHAT ONE I FEEL LIKE ON HUNTING DAY *****
    8,237
    2762 times
    ANY TYPE OF TREASURE HUNTING THAT PUTS MONEY IN MY POCKET
    It's a bad idea ..... The best thing to do with our goverment is stay away from them as far as you can..... Give them money for a license ..no no and no..... Any time you get involved with the goverment you always get screwed....
    boris and lookindown like this.
    ".. Let no one know what , when , or where ..'

  8. #23
    us
    relic hunter

    Dec 2011
    Cape Cod
    tesoro stingray
    468
    92 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    They have to pay govt. workers to issue them, therefore how could they ever be free? You forgot we are free.
    Last edited by boris; Apr 08, 2012 at 06:46 PM.

  9. #24
    us
    Mar 2010
    Florida
    ACE 250,AT PRO, CZ21...RTG pro scoop...Stealth 720
    7,046
    4751 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Honorable Mentions (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keppy View Post
    It's a bad idea ..... The best thing to do with our goverment is stay away from them as far as you can..... Give them money for a license ..no no and no..... Any time you get involved with the goverment you always get screwed....
    Boy you got that right...just what we need, another government fee...count me out.

  10. #25

    Feb 2008
    2,875
    638 times
    hunt-a-lot, here's an idea. Figure out how many detectorists are in your county. Have a printer makeup that number of permits at
    your expense to avoid red tape and take them to the county judge for him to sell to mders. Then have the judge approve an ad in the
    paper at your expense to announce that permits are available for the fee he agrees to. Also ask the judge to use the proceeds to
    fund free detectors for the disadvantaged. A win/win solution.
    bazinga likes this.

  11. #26
    th
    Nov 2010
    Thailand/Europe/California
    Excalibur 2 1000
    1,151
    238 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    We pay for hunting and fishing licenses because, there are expenses like restocking lakes and rivers, etc, but for metal detecting, there is no one Replacing at the tax payers expense, coins, rings, treasure or what ever, Frisbee throwing is not using up anything that needs to be replaced. If there were a permit for metal detecting, then anyone recovering junk, should also be paid for his or her work. Im sure it could be turned into a very complicated problem. Once a system of permits is started, then its an easy step to start charging for them, and once you are paying, it gets easier for us to think, "why fill my hole, the city is making money to pay someone to do it".

  12. #27

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
    13,667
    10080 times
    Banner Finds (4)
    bigscoop, you say:

    " ..... you really need to do a lot more research, and a much wider scope of research on the subject....."


    "Research" is exactly why I have come to the conclusions I've come to I have given much thought to this topic, over my 35+ yrs. in this (having been a club pres. and officer, and seeing the whole evolution of this stuff), and this is EXACTLY why I come to conclusions I have.

    " you are ...... focusing all of your insight on a very tiny fraction of the overall causes and reasons."

    And herein is our difference: I see this grovelling as the reason for a higher percentage of the resulting laws (ie.: "no one cares till you ask" psychology). And you see grovelling as resulting in very few of the resulting laws. I gave many case-examples of the psychology actually at work, in the St. Augstine post. But I guess you would say those are the only ones, and extreme exceptions? I was prepared to list more examples. But alas, you will continue to dismiss them and say they are each the only ones, and represent only a small percent. Eg.: If I could list 100 of them, it would do no good. And mind you, often time when someone reads a rule or law, NEVER does the rule or law say something like "this is enacted/written because a bunch of people came asking for clarifications, permissions, etc...". No, of course not. It will ALWAYS say things like "because of holes" or "because of archaeology", etc... Afterall, they need to back up their new law with something to be their reasoning. But this fails to take into account: How did it come across their radar as something pressing to address .... IN THE FIRST PLACE? Timid hunters who want neon signs saying "metal detecting welcome here!" Doh!

    "Your statement that there is some "goal to have a lack of rules",....? Obviously you've not been paying attention as it's actually quite the reverse of that."

    Huh? I don't understand. Wouldn't all us md'rs relish lack of rules prohibiting detecting? Since when do we md'rs like rules against us? You'll need to clarify this, as I believe most md'rs wish that no such rules existed. Sorry, I lost ya there.

    "... you advise people not go about seeking those rules..."


    I advise that if people are curious if there's rules/laws in their area, to look them up themselves. And NOT to go asking a live person "can I metal detect?". So I'm not sure what you're saying. You can see that I do not suggest lawlessness, and tell people to look up any potential rules for themselves (city, county, and state's all have websites now, with muni. codes, etc... right there for all to see). If it is silent on the issue (ie.: nothing saying "no metal detectors"), then presto, it's not prohibited! How much more lawFUL can one be than to look things up ahead of time for themselves? So again, I've lost ya there bigscoop.

    George (MN), you say:

    While this might be better thread for legal issues forum, I'll answer here. Most of the bans that people report on here do not exist or are never enforced.

    Agreed. I can think of a few places where that was exactly the case. Here's an actual case example of this:

    An example of why NOT to ask at innocuous public places (Long)
    bazinga likes this.

  13. #28
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Tom, like I said in an earlier effort to end the redundancy, "They're your opinions and you have a right to them, just I have the right to voice my opinions." Not going to keep bantering back and forth with you. I'm an advocate for "exploring options and possible better solutions/systems before they are needed". You obviously are not and you're content to let the chips fall where they may and then hopefully deal with issues only once they've become an acting threat. That's fine. Whatever works for you.

  14. #29

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
    13,667
    10080 times
    Banner Finds (4)

    reply

    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    ..... I'm an advocate for "exploring options and possible better solutions/systems before they are needed". You obviously are not and you're content to let the chips fall where they may .....
    I too advocate for a solution, and the solution is as I espouse: Stop making ourselves a target for the "say-so" of bureaucrats to say "no" to. This IS pro-active and pre-emptive. This is NOT allowing the "chips to fall where they may". So as you can see, I do NOT advocate "doing nothing". The "something" I advocate is to stop the silliness which has brought about a great deal of this .... to begin with.

    And yes, we're each entitled to our opinions. I hope you see by my many examples, that there are a great deal of closed sites, which would NOT have been, if people hadn't gone grovelling, begging for sanctions, permissions, permits, clarifications, etc... I don't know what you say to each of those examples d/t I haven't heard feedback from you on those. I suppose you'll say they're the only examples that exist, and don't represent any other enacted or proposed laws? And if I gave you 100 examples, you would say that those too are the only ones? At what point would you start to agree that there's a high percentage that are caused by this very psychology?

    For example: what do you say to the Utah state park's example, where powers-that-be specifically outline their reason for the dept. clarification, as being the "... numerous inquires the dept. receives each year..." (I'm just curious how you would respond to that. Is it the only example of the "bullseye psychology" to have ever occured, and you say it's never occured outside of that? Just curious)
    maipenrai likes this.

  15. #30
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Tom, I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it again here for you. The difference between you and I is that you are focused on individual effects, while I am focused on the cause that brings those effects into existence. It's small picture VS big picture. I'm looking at the big picture..."The root cause of it all".

    Overexposure = growth = increased regulation/restrictions


    It "IS NOT" just the simple acts of a few that bring about increased regulations and restrictions. It is "the overexposure and growth" that brings all these other issues about. This has been the history of every area within our treasure hunting pursuits.

    There are those who will say that you have seen it all before, but clearly you have not as the recent onslaught of TV and video productions has never taken place before. If you took all of the past treasure hunting magazines right up to today and you combined their total subscribers during their best five years, that number wouldn’t scratch the surface of the number of viewers who are seeing these TV and video productions in a single month now. And these views are growing and there’s every reason to expect that they’ll continue to grow, possibly, if not probably, even more rapidly. So the question is, at what point will all of the individual areas of our hobby become, “too overexposed?”

    Excerpt from - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

    “Experts attribute the hobby's dramatic growth to the skyrocketing price of gold and silver, the tough economy and the popularity of TV shows where treasure hunters using metal detectors make big discoveries.

    One of the nation's top metal-detector retailers, Kellyco Inc. of Winter Springs, Fla., saw annual sales climb by 63 percent to $24.8 million from 2005 — when precious metal prices began to soar — until 2010. (and they're still seeing steady growth.)

    Kellyco chief executive officer Stuart Auerbach, who founded his company after returning from World War II, in which he used metal detectors to sweep for mines, said sales of some types of treasure-hunting equipment has increased from 30 orders a month to 300 orders a week.”


    BIG PICTURE VS small picture.

    FYI....The effects of all this overexposure are already being felt.

    PS: Continue to advocate "do nothing" if you wish...this "psychology" has worked out absolutely marvelously for us in the past.
    Last edited by bigscoop; Apr 10, 2012 at 10:44 AM.

 

 
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