Propane conversion

[Bonaro]

The environmentalists have many issues with dredgers one being refueling in the water and the possibility of spilling gas.

I have been researching LP gas conversion for small engines and I am about to order a retrofit kit to convert my 11hp Honda dredge motor. I see the pro's being a much cleaner fuel with no spills, easy refueling and cheaper fuel cost.

Does anyone have any experience with propane conversion of small governor controlled engines?

 

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[Jason in Enid]

Running propane should mean your oil stays cleaner longer right?

I would call it absolutely clean. Our fire stations all have natural gas fed generators which run every week and during power outages. It can be hard to check the oil level in them because the oil NEVER gets dark. It looks brand new every single day it's checked.

 

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[Bonaro]

1/4-1/3 loss in energy makes it almost exactly the same cost as gas per btu as gas here running at $3.00 a gallon and propane is more expensive than gas here now sooooooo. Hope it puts out enough energy for your test pump B-John

Hoser, that is actually not accurate. Natural gas has about 30% less BTU by volume than Propane but propane is only about 10% less than gasoline. Locally I am paying $2 per gallon for propane and $3.40 for Gas.
This tips the scales pretty good in favor of propane

 

[Hoser John]

My bud regassed his rv because of power problems especially at higher altitudes. I have never used just using others experiences and trying to believe posts. Still hope it works out for ya no matter what ,but just saying?John

 

[Bonaro]

My bud regassed his rv because of power problems especially at higher altitudes. I have never used just using others experiences and trying to believe posts. Still hope it works out for ya no matter what ,but just saying?John

I am expecting a power loss of some degree but since I normally dredge at about half throttle, I think I will still have plenty of throttle left.
I was quoting the info on the website that sold me the conversion kit when I said there should be little loss in power. However, they also said that automotive applications were very different in performance than small engines. Your bud with the RV was certainly dealing with things that I am not.
Your altitude point is also certainly valid, especially in a RV but here in Washington our highest mountain pass is only 4k feet.
I still have to field test before I will know for sure and my buddy with the swimming pool is busy with hunting season so it will have to wait a few weeks.

Right now I am busily making a manifold s I can run off of disposable camp tanks. A pair of tanks should give me about 3 hours of run time but I am concerned about icing since the flow will be higher.

Even if none of this works it is better than spending my weekends drinking beer all day....uh, on second thought...

 

[IMPDLN]

Using propane this way isn't without issues. You are dealing with fuel under pressure. Any fuel line ruptures can certainly be fatal for one. A sudden release of propane touches the exhaust manifold you will certainly have a catastrophic failure. Just something to consider when you mount your fuel cell and run your hoses. Don't cut corners on regulators, it ain't worth the risk.

Altitude can certainly be a problem with a carbureted setup. As propane runs much leaner than gasoline it might keep the engine and oil cleaner, but it can also burn valves much easier. You will need a way to adjust the fuel input at higher altitude and also a way to measure how rich or lean your engine is running, unless you are only going to run it at a specified altitude.

Here right now, gasoline is getting way cheap and propane is not really coming down any so the cost of fuel currently would not offset the possible benefits for the retrofit.

In my opinion diesel engines are the way to go, but not running pump diesel. Vegetable oil and a simple distillery is the most cost efficient way and environmentally sound way to go. Might smell like a French fry cooker, but done right it can be real cheap fuel. Veg oil burns clean, non polluting, and cheap when you have your own distillery and obtain used oil from a local restaurant. You can burn it in your diesel pickup as well with no special modifications. I know a guy that went into doing this with his neighbor and they figure fuel is costing them about 65 cents a gallon to produce. And you don't need any special permits to do this as an individual in your own garage.

Now you may not be able to convert all gas engines to burn diesel, or veg oil, but some can be. Just something to think about. Dennis

 

[Bonaro]

Using propane this way isn't without issues. You are dealing with fuel under pressure. Any fuel line ruptures can certainly be fatal for one. A sudden release of propane touches the exhaust manifold you will certainly have a catastrophic failure. Just something to consider when you mount your fuel cell and run your hoses. Don't cut corners on regulators, it ain't worth the risk.

Altitude can certainly be a problem with a carbureted setup. As propane runs much leaner than gasoline it might keep the engine and oil cleaner, but it can also burn valves much easier. You will need a way to adjust the fuel input at higher altitude and also a way to measure how rich or lean your engine is running, unless you are only going to run it at a specified altitude.

Here right now, gasoline is getting way cheap and propane is not really coming down any so the cost of fuel currently would not offset the possible benefits for the retrofit.

In my opinion diesel engines are the way to go, but not running pump diesel. Vegetable oil and a simple distillery is the most cost efficient way and environmentally sound way to go. Might smell like a French fry cooker, but done right it can be real cheap fuel. Veg oil burns clean, non polluting, and cheap when you have your own distillery and obtain used oil from a local restaurant. You can burn it in your diesel pickup as well with no special modifications. I know a guy that went into doing this with his neighbor and they figure fuel is costing them about 65 cents a gallon to produce. And you don't need any special permits to do this as an individual in your own garage.

Now you may not be able to convert all gas engines to burn diesel, or veg oil, but some can be. Just something to think about. Dennis

IMPDLN, I disagree with you on several points

1. Fuel under pressure - Every car, plane, train and truck operates with fuel under pressure. It is liquid fuel and when spilled it puddles and soaks in and persists as a huge fire hazard until cleaned up. In spite of this all these vehicles are safe to operate. Propane gas is also commonly used safely in our homes, commercial buildings and vehicles. When spilled it is a problem in a enclosed space (like gasoline would be) but outside it is lighter than air and just blows away. I would say it is safer than liquid fuels.
2. The ignition temperature of propane is 920F, The ignition temperature of gasoline is 477F. Propane requires over twice the heat that Gas requires to reach auto-combustion - safer
3. Propane runs leaner - In a gas engine if you want to run cooler you adjust for a rich mixture because the additional liquid fuel acts as a coolant as it enters the cylinder. Running lean increases the heat in the engine as it has less cooling from the liquid fuel. In propane there is no liquid fuel to provide cooling so if you want to run cooler you reduce the fuel and lean out the mixture. running lean is cooler. Propane engines do not run lean, they run how you adjust them to run.
4. Altitude - altitude effects all engines in the same way, less air combined with the fuel. No more a problem in propane motors than in gas
5. Cost - locally gasoline is $3.40 a gallon, propane is $2.20 nuf said
6. Diesel. I love diesel power but it is a worse spill hazard than gasoline (over the water) because it does not evaporate. It is not explosive but poses a far greater environmental hazard than gas. Veg oil is a joke and not really relevant in any application unless you own a KFC. First you have to run around and fetch the used oil from restaurants. They sell this to recyclers so you have to beat their price to get it AND you have to beat out the other guys that want the oil for their truck. Next is the fact that the average restaurant produces about 20-30 gallons of waste oil a week. I burn that much diesel every week. This means that ONE restaurant ALMOST produces enough oil to fuel ONE truck on the road. Next you have to redundantly filter and distill it it before you can use it. Your life may be different than mine but I have nowhere near the time or desire to screw with all this just so my truck can smell like a kitchen fire going down the road. 65 cents a gallon?? only if your spare time is worthless.

I do agree that Propane is not without issues. Availability is less and you just cant pour it from one container to another...that about all...

 

[Hoser John]

Nuttn' perfect in this life but death-game on as most interesting thread going now-thanx for tenacity-John

 

[Reed Lukens]

Gas is #3.49 up there? Wow! It's $2.88 here now in Rocklin and I paid $1.75 for propane for the house in Alta. I thought Cali had some of the highest gas rates but... hehe, you got me beat... lol

 

[Bonaro]

Yeah, that was a old price, it is dropping daily. I think I saw $2.97 today. I don't pay much attention to gas because I fly a cummins. Diesel is still fetching $3.79 and that pizzes me of

 

[Bonaro]

Nuttn' perfect in this life but death-game on as most interesting thread going now-thanx for tenacity-John

John, I am nearly done building a manifold to run off of 2 disposable camp cylinders - pics to follow
This conversion is not without a price but I think it will be a better thing. The acid test will be next summer when I press the dredge into service for a season of clients...sink or swim, right?

 

[Hoser John]

Amen no s......no glory(censor would a got it anyhow) Paid $2.86 here in Redding-took both trucks and filled them to the brim as been soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long since under $3. Both propane tanks full from summer as I bbq all year so no current price,was way over $4 this summer. John

 

[IMPDLN]

!. Fuel under pressure, gasoline or diesel are very low pressure and only pressurized by a pump. Most small engines are gravity flow, so very low to no pressure. Propane and natural gas however are in liquid state while in a canister. as it leaves the canister past a regulator it becomes vapor and the change from liquid to vapor creates high pressure which also becomes very explosive. All are flammable, but propane or natural gas can level buildings because they do not just blow away. The vapors drop to the ground and concentrate and all it takes is the right spark, even static electricity, and you have a instant explosive fire ball. So you look at it how you want, but propane is not safer.

Example: When a fuel tanker puts gas in your local gas station, they just hook up hoses and dump it into ground tanks. When propane tanks dispense fuel from tanker to tank they have to park on special pads that eliminate the possibility of static electricity to prevent explosions.

Another example is auto accidents. If a gas tank ruptures, they rarely explode, even when on fire. However if a propane or natural gas tank is ruptured in an accident they will only explode if circumstances provide an ignition source. They never just burn. And hot exhaust, especially catalytic converters, are hot enough to ignite propane, natural gas, and gasoline. Diesel or vegetable oil are the least likely to burn as they have a much higher flash point.

I'll skip 2----3. Fuel does not cool a motor. Exhaust temps will be higher with a leaner mixture, that is all. Running too lean will make your exhaust manifolds glow red hot no matter what fuel you use. This can and will burn exhaust valves.

Now on a 2 stroke motor that runs an oil fuel mixture, the oil in the fuel acts as a lubricant which helps with cooling because there is no sump with oil. Oil in an engine is both a heat sink and a lubricant. I don't recommend converting a 2 stroke to propane. It won't last long without oil in the system.

Propane looses more power than gasoline or diesel as altitude increases. With modern fuel injection it is less noticeable, however with modern propane conversion on autos, the computer must have programming parameters modified to compensate.

Just a note on propane price, it depends on volume. To use camp stove sized bottles would be foolish as you would pay about 2 times per gallon as diesel. At least out here in Az., as gasoline is under $2.75 a gallon. Getting cheaper every day right now. Propane is not cheap here either. Even in bulk tanks, and the price doesn't seem to be dropping any. The power loss with propane makes it no more economical.

Done with numbers. Vegetable oil does make sense because it is not a petroleum product. It is not unusual for a restaurant to go through 200 gallons in a month. And they don't sell it, they have to pay to have the waste hauled off. Most would gladly give it to you free once used. Two tanks and a simple distillery are all that is needed. Tanks can also be obtained cheap as 55 gallon drums even in plastic can be had free or cheap if you know where to look. It isn't a time consuming project to process veg oil at all. The biggest problem is having a place to store it.

It comes down to perspective. I don't like propane any more than electric cars. Propane is beyond flammable. It is explosive. All are fine till you have a leak. Gas and diesel are a environmental mess to clean up and gas is flammable. Propane is a highly possible explosion should you have a leak. Veg oil has a high flash point like diesel so a fire is unlikely. It also is not a petroleum product so it is not an environmental nightmare should you have a leak.

Diesel engines running veg oil produce the least pollution and burn very clean and can last a long time. The future of autos is going diesel. All of the real high mileage vehicles coming out these days are diesel. In fact some vehicles, not legal in USA that are diesel get in excess of 100 miles per gallon. I believe 1 manufacture actually has a small diesel car that gets close to 200 mpg, however you may not know, that in the USA you can only get 60 mpg by federal law........darn strange but true.

So it is up to you to obtain your own perspective. All fuels have issues to deal with. I myself don't like explosions, so propane won't work for me. Dennis

 

[Bonaro]

!. Fuel under pressure, gasoline or diesel are very low pressure and only pressurized by a pump. Most small engines are gravity flow, so very low to no pressure. Propane and natural gas however are in liquid state while in a canister. as it leaves the canister past a regulator it becomes vapor and the change from liquid to vapor creates high pressure which also becomes very explosive. All are flammable, but propane or natural gas can level buildings because they do not just blow away. The vapors drop to the ground and concentrate and all it takes is the right spark, even static electricity, and you have a instant explosive fire ball. So you look at it how you want, but propane is not safer.

Example: When a fuel tanker puts gas in your local gas station, they just hook up hoses and dump it into ground tanks. When propane tanks dispense fuel from tanker to tank they have to park on special pads that eliminate the possibility of static electricity to prevent explosions.

Another example is auto accidents. If a gas tank ruptures, they rarely explode, even when on fire. However if a propane or natural gas tank is ruptured in an accident they will only explode if circumstances provide an ignition source. They never just burn. And hot exhaust, especially catalytic converters, are hot enough to ignite propane, natural gas, and gasoline. Diesel or vegetable oil are the least likely to burn as they have a much higher flash point.

I'll skip 2----3. Fuel does not cool a motor. Exhaust temps will be higher with a leaner mixture, that is all. Running too lean will make your exhaust manifolds glow red hot no matter what fuel you use. This can and will burn exhaust valves.

Now on a 2 stroke motor that runs an oil fuel mixture, the oil in the fuel acts as a lubricant which helps with cooling because there is no sump with oil. Oil in an engine is both a heat sink and a lubricant. I don't recommend converting a 2 stroke to propane. It won't last long without oil in the system.

Propane looses more power than gasoline or diesel as altitude increases. With modern fuel injection it is less noticeable, however with modern propane conversion on autos, the computer must have programming parameters modified to compensate.

Just a note on propane price, it depends on volume. To use camp stove sized bottles would be foolish as you would pay about 2 times per gallon as diesel. At least out here in Az., as gasoline is under $2.75 a gallon. Getting cheaper every day right now. Propane is not cheap here either. Even in bulk tanks, and the price doesn't seem to be dropping any. The power loss with propane makes it no more economical.

Done with numbers. Vegetable oil does make sense because it is not a petroleum product. It is not unusual for a restaurant to go through 200 gallons in a month. And they don't sell it, they have to pay to have the waste hauled off. Most would gladly give it to you free once used. Two tanks and a simple distillery are all that is needed. Tanks can also be obtained cheap as 55 gallon drums even in plastic can be had free or cheap if you know where to look. It isn't a time consuming project to process veg oil at all. The biggest problem is having a place to store it.

It comes down to perspective. I don't like propane any more than electric cars. Propane is beyond flammable. It is explosive. All are fine till you have a leak. Gas and diesel are a environmental mess to clean up and gas is flammable. Propane is a highly possible explosion should you have a leak. Veg oil has a high flash point like diesel so a fire is unlikely. It also is not a petroleum product so it is not an environmental nightmare should you have a leak.

Diesel engines running veg oil produce the least pollution and burn very clean and can last a long time. The future of autos is going diesel. All of the real high mileage vehicles coming out these days are diesel. In fact some vehicles, not legal in USA that are diesel get in excess of 100 miles per gallon. I believe 1 manufacture actually has a small diesel car that gets close to 200 mpg, however you may not know, that in the USA you can only get 60 mpg by federal law........darn strange but true.

So it is up to you to obtain your own perspective. All fuels have issues to deal with. I myself don't like explosions, so propane won't work for me. Dennis

It's odd how someones personal opinion interferes with their common sense. Do propane explosions happen a lot in your neck of the woods?
I'm not trying to pick a fight here but most of what you just said is completely wrong. I respect your opinion that you do not like propane or electric cars but the so called facts that you use to support this opinion range from inaccurate to complete fantasy. Lets look at a few... and if you can show me any proof that I am wrong please provide it.

Propane gas is not explosive, it is flammable, just like gasoline vapors. This explosion you keep talking about is expansion during combustion. LP is 1.56 times heavier than air so it sinks slowly and in a confined space like a garage it will pool near the floor. Gasoline has a vapor density of 3-4 and is much heavier than air. Due to its increased weight it will flow and fill low areas and spread to a much wider area. You are not supposed to store either indoors for this reason.
How often have you walked up to a gasoline can and smelled gas? Gas cans are cheap plastic and on a hot day you can smell them from yards away because they are venting flammable vapors.
How often have you walked up to a propane bottle and smelled propane? Unless you just changed a bottle you probably will not smell it. LP bottles are made from welded mild steel and tested to 4x their normal operating pressure. They are 20x more puncture resistant than your little red plastic can.

Altitude. When you take any engine to altitude the air is thinner and that richens the mixture. In a carbureted gas motor it can actually stop running if high enough because you will exceed the stochiometric ratio of fuel/air required. Computerized motors can partially compensate for this because they measure the density of the air and lean out the mix to correct. In a LP motor the regulator is atmospheric so it adds fuel in direct proportion to the mass of airflow against it. Both engines in comparison compensate for thin air. Your argument is that LP produces less power at altitude. Fuel produces a known amount of expansion when combusted. It appears that you are suggesting LP changes it's chemical properties somehow when it reaches higher altitude.
Can you please support this opinion? I tried, I cant.

Veggie oil and diesel are completely different than other fuels but you said Veg oil is not a environmental hazard. What the heck are you talking about? If you spill diesel or veg oil in the water it is a significant environmental problem...it's OIL! If you pour either on the ground that spot is oily for years. Gasoline will actually evaporate its it a temporary problem. Propane never touches the water or ground if you somehow vent it out of the bottle...no problem. Distilling your own veg oil is a giant pain in the ass. I know a guy who does it. He is always looking or grease and his garage is completely filled with a huge oily mess not to mention smelling like a french fry festival.

Cost - I did a little math1 gallon Gasoline= 125,000 BTUs
1 gallon Propane = 91,700 BTUs
Considering this, 1 gallon of gas has the same BTU as 1.36 gallons of propane
Local prices as of today ( I checked)
Gasoline = $2.85 / gal
Propane = $2.00 /gal
$2.00 * 1.36 = $2.72 In summary, it costs 10 cents less per gallon to produce the same amount of work (BTU) with propane than with gas
Propane is cheaper

Fuel is a coolant and running lean creates hotter temps because of the lack of liquid fuel to cool. I don't think I need to post my resume her so you will have to trust me, I know what I'm talking about here. If you have more questions we can discuss the octane rating of LP and how you can boost performance with higher compression ratios so that 1.36 differential above will go away. Have you ever considered a high performance propane powered car?
Please try out Google, it will teach you a lot about what you think you already know

2 strokes...irrelevant, we are not discussing 2 strokes, nor are we discussing cars or diesels. We are talking about converting a dredge motor to LP.

The one thing you said that was accurate was that camp bottles were expensive. I stated earlier that I plan to use these because I can refill them myself. If I had to buy them off the shelf it would be very expensive.

Your conspiracy theory about federal law not allowing cars with MPG over 60 is just pure bullshit, hybrids already exceed this...prove me wrong.

 

[Bonaro]

I finished building the manifold for use with disposable camp bottles. I included a fuel level gauge so I can tell when they are getting empty. A quick test run went smoothly.
My only concern if that the smaller bottles will ice up due to the higher than design fuel flow. When I do my pump tests later I will know for sure.
I still need to fab a bracket.

 

[IMPDLN]

You might try google yourself. You don't think propane is explosive? How many buildings are leveled annually by propane or natural gas leaks which explode and wipe out the whole building? Might not happen where I live often, but it happens every year and not because of tank ruptures so much as line failures which leak and concentrate propane or natural gas as vapor at ground level. Tanks have to be super strong because propane and natural gas are under high pressure. If a line or tank fails, the vapor escapes fast and if it gets a spark the fire is equal to an explosion.

Propane conversions do equate to a loss of power, not just at altitude, but more noticeable as you increase altitude. Propane is also more of a fire/explosion hazard because it is under high pressure in liquid form which always converts to vapor as it is released from pressure.

I never said veg oil is not an environmental hazard. I said it is not an environmental nightmare because it is not a petroleum product.

Fuel is not a coolant in an engine. Anti freeze/coolant, oil, and air are coolants, not fuel.

Name one vehicle sold in USA that has a rating higher than 60 MPG......there aren't any currently. The Fed does control this. The available hybrids ratings show higher by a deceiving kw/h rating. Actual mpg of fuel usage will be less than 60mpg.

Your opinion is that I am just wrong about everything. I never claimed to be an expert, but I am no ignorant fool. You can't believe everything you read on the internet. Just because you read something on the internet, don't make it the truth or correct.

You think just because gas somewhat evaporates it isn't a problem?? You think propane because it is invisible in vapor will just blow away and is no problem?? OMG!!!

Good luck to you. I hope you never blow yourself up with propane or natural gas or any other type fire. Dennis

 

[Bonaro]

You might try google yourself. You don't think propane is explosive? How many buildings are leveled annually by propane or natural gas leaks which explode and wipe out the whole building? Might not happen where I live often, but it happens every year and not because of tank ruptures so much as line failures which leak and concentrate propane or natural gas as vapor at ground level. Tanks have to be super strong because propane and natural gas are under high pressure. If a line or tank fails, the vapor escapes fast and if it gets a spark the fire is equal to an explosion.

Propane conversions do equate to a loss of power, not just at altitude, but more noticeable as you increase altitude. Propane is also more of a fire/explosion hazard because it is under high pressure in liquid form which always converts to vapor as it is released from pressure.

I never said veg oil is not an environmental hazard. I said it is not an environmental nightmare because it is not a petroleum product.

Fuel is not a coolant in an engine. Anti freeze/coolant, oil, and air are coolants, not fuel.

Name one vehicle sold in USA that has a rating higher than 60 MPG......there aren't any currently. The Fed does control this. The available hybrids ratings show higher by a deceiving kw/h rating. Actual mpg of fuel usage will be less than 60mpg.

Your opinion is that I am just wrong about everything. I never claimed to be an expert, but I am no ignorant fool. You can't believe everything you read on the internet. Just because you read something on the internet, don't make it the truth or correct.

You think just because gas somewhat evaporates it isn't a problem?? You think propane because it is invisible in vapor will just blow away and is no problem?? OMG!!!

Good luck to you. I hope you never blow yourself up with propane or natural gas or any other type fire. Dennis

Dennis, you clearly and firmly believe in the things you say but you offer no proof to back anything up. It really seems that you are just very set in your ways and stubbornly resist anything different or new. I simply ask you to prove ANY of the things you say.

Propane has less BTU by volume that gasoline. It therefore produces less power by a factor of 1.36. This power differential does not change when you go higher in altitude. The laws of physics prevent this. I didn't invent them and If you know different please prove it.

Fuel is a coolant. The incoming fuel charge adds a cooling effect to the cylinder because it loses heat when it vaporizes. In a lean condition the fuel is less and so is the cooling effect. The O2 ratio is also greater which makes for a hotter fire. When you have a older carbureted car that "diesels" when you try to shut it off, you fix that by richening the idle fuel mixture. The cause of this dieseling is a lean condition that leads to excessive heat and causes the fuel to auto ignite after the spark is turned off ...the extra fuel cools the combustion chamber....look it up. Here is just one article out of dozens I found:
Why does a lean engine run hot? - General Dirt Bike Discussion - ThumperTalk

Federal law about mileage - 60+ mpg is a hard line to beat. not many cars exist in the world that can do it. Federal law does prevent the importation of cars that lack US safety standards and the other factor contributing to foreign cars having higher MPG is differences in the way we test MPG.
snopes.com: Is Volkswagen's 300 MPG Car Banned in the U.S.?
Why European Gas-Mileage Ratings Are So High--And Often Wrong

Gasoline in those silly red cans does evaporate and vent flammable vapors all the time. If you spill a gallon of gasoline on the ground that spot will remain flammable for hours and the fuel will soak in the ground contaminating it with a toxic mess that will sterilize that soil for months.
If you vent a gallon of LP it is flammable until it disperses. Even if there is no wind at all this will take only 1-2 minutes. No contamination and it's non toxic

"veg oil is an environmental hazard not an environmental nightmare because it is not a petroleum product"....uh...ok

I don't think you are wrong about everything,. I think you believe a lot of things that you hear and never bother to fact check anything.
I have asked you several times to show some proof of the things you rant about and you wont go there.
I don't think I can help you understand the truth because you dont want to hear it.

 

[IMPDLN]

LOL, omg!!! You use a link to another forum with speculators to try and prove your point. Good proof you got there. Your angle is fuel acts as a coolant in a combustion chamber. Unfortunately this is a misconceived understanding of how an internal combustion engine works. You want proof, try something like Wikipedia. Coolant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coolant is a heat sink. No vapor will remove heat. Only a liquid will remove heat inside an engine. The only time any fuel acts as a coolant is when it is ran through engine parts in a liquid state like a fuel rail in a jet engine or rocket. Once fuel is vaporized through whatever means, like an injector, it is a propellant, not a coolant. The fact that a lean condition creates more heat is because oxygen burns hotter and slower. More oxygen, less fuel makes for a hotter slower burn. This does not make fuel a coolant. Your understanding and terminology is flawed because of the way you are calling fuel a coolant.

Dieseling: Dieseling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again you misunderstand. Dieseling is caused by left over fuel or oil and a hot spot in a cylinder, not by a lean condition.

You really need to work on doing your research from reliable sources.

For your information, vehicles have been able to get more than 60 mpg since the 1950's. Many a high mileage carburetor has been designed only to have the patents bought and shelved. With modern fuel injection it is certainly possible to get 100 mpg, however the federal government doesn't want you to have that capability. Proper modern diesel engines can certainly obtain 100+ mpg and do, but not in this country. Here is just one link about 1936 technology that can obtain high mileage, that is not being used. Today's Vehicle Can Achieve 100 MPG, Proven by Resurrected Technology From 1936 -- SALEM, Ohio, Nov. 24, 2014 /PRNewswire/ --
Another link about high mileage vehicles in the USA. 50+ MPG Cars "Not Allowed" in USA | Alternative

Now I'm not going to go search through a bunch of old patent info, but the fact is high mileage carburetor technology has been out there since the 1950's.

The fact is some high mileage vehicles are built here, but not sold here. Why? Not because of safety. It's all about money, bottom line.

I will give you the fact that propane is clean burning. Propane itself if leaked is not considered to be a pollutant. I never said it was. What I said is that when propane leaks it is a nasty fire/explosion possibility. Ever heard of a BLEVE? Propane fires often end with huge explosions. I also said propane equals a loss of power, and that it is more noticeable at higher altitudes, and this statement is true.

I don't know where you are getting your BTU facts, but here is a reliable source. Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From what I read LPG only gives you approx. 74% BTU per gallon compared to gas and diesel gives you up to 113% of BTU per gallon. Now by my calculation that is a roughly 25% drop in BTU from gasoline to propane. That is a large drop in power, and as I have said, much more noticeable at higher altitude.

I am not trying to tell you or anybody else what to do. You have formed the opinion that propane is the way you want to go. Maybe when your dredge motor hasn't got enough lift to pick up material 10 ft. deep you will understand. I just hope you don't have a fuel leak and blow your stuff up. Dennis

 

[GoldpannerDave]

Using propane this way isn't without issues. You are dealing with fuel under pressure. Any fuel line ruptures can certainly be fatal for one. A sudden release of propane touches the exhaust manifold you will certainly have a catastrophic failure. Just something to consider when you mount your fuel cell and run your hoses. Don't cut corners on regulators, it ain't worth the risk.

Altitude can certainly be a problem with a carbureted setup. As propane runs much leaner than gasoline it might keep the engine and oil cleaner, but it can also burn valves much easier. You will need a way to adjust the fuel input at higher altitude and also a way to measure how rich or lean your engine is running, unless you are only going to run it at a specified altitude.

Here right now, gasoline is getting way cheap and propane is not really coming down any so the cost of fuel currently would not offset the possible benefits for the retrofit.

In my opinion diesel engines are the way to go, but not running pump diesel. Vegetable oil and a simple distillery is the most cost efficient way and environmentally sound way to go. Might smell like a French fry cooker, but done right it can be real cheap fuel. Veg oil burns clean, non polluting, and cheap when you have your own distillery and obtain used oil from a local restaurant. You can burn it in your diesel pickup as well with no special modifications. I know a guy that went into doing this with his neighbor and they figure fuel is costing them about 65 cents a gallon to produce. And you don't need any special permits to do this as an individual in your own garage.

Now you may not be able to convert all gas engines to burn diesel, or veg oil, but some can be. Just something to think about. Dennis

While veggie oil isn't biodiesel, it is easy to convert. We just had our cadets make biodiesel out of veggie oil in Chem2 last week. We used off-the-shelf because we did not want to distill used oil first. One problem was some cadets did not follow instructions on the NaOH they added. They used the Tim Taylor, more is better approach. They made soap instead of biodiesel.

Properly made, the glycerol goes to the bottom of the reaction container; you pour off the biodiesel. We stopped there, but you actually have to wash it to get rid of the impurities dissolved in the biodiesel and then evaporate off any water absorbed before you run it in a diesel engine.

On second thought, it is a bit more trouble than just distilling used oil; however so many of you guys here are so talented doing things, I bet many of you could do the setup without any real problems.

 

[Bonaro]

While veggie oil isn't biodiesel, it is easy to convert. We just had our cadets make biodiesel out of veggie oil in Chem2 last week. We used off-the-shelf because we did not want to distill used oil first. One problem was some cadets did not follow instructions on the NaOH they added. They used the Tim Taylor, more is better approach. They made soap instead of biodiesel.

Properly made, the glycerol goes to the bottom of the reaction container; you pour off the biodiesel. We stopped there, but you actually have to wash it to get rid of the impurities dissolved in the biodiesel and then evaporate off any water absorbed before you run it in a diesel engine.

On second thought, it is a bit more trouble than just distilling used oil; however so many of you guys here are so talented doing things, I bet many of you could do the setup without any real problems.

GPDave, since you have produced diesel fuel from veggie oil, I would ask you a question. In round numbers, If you could get the used oil for free, would you how much would it cost you (chemicals, electricity, supplies, waste disposal and your time) for you to distill your own diesel fuel in your garage considering you would need to produce 100 gallons a month, every month?

 

[Bonaro]

LOL, omg!!! You use a link to another forum with speculators to try and prove your point. Good proof you got there. Your angle is fuel acts as a coolant in a combustion chamber. Unfortunately this is a misconceived understanding of how an internal combustion engine works. You want proof, try something like Wikipedia. Coolant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coolant is a heat sink. No vapor will remove heat. Only a liquid will remove heat inside an engine. The only time any fuel acts as a coolant is when it is ran through engine parts in a liquid state like a fuel rail in a jet engine or rocket. Once fuel is vaporized through whatever means, like an injector, it is a propellant, not a coolant. The fact that a lean condition creates more heat is because oxygen burns hotter and slower. More oxygen, less fuel makes for a hotter slower burn. This does not make fuel a coolant. Your understanding and terminology is flawed because of the way you are calling fuel a coolant.

Dieseling: Dieseling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again you misunderstand. Dieseling is caused by left over fuel or oil and a hot spot in a cylinder, not by a lean condition.

You really need to work on doing your research from reliable sources.

For your information, vehicles have been able to get more than 60 mpg since the 1950's. Many a high mileage carburetor has been designed only to have the patents bought and shelved. With modern fuel injection it is certainly possible to get 100 mpg, however the federal government doesn't want you to have that capability. Proper modern diesel engines can certainly obtain 100+ mpg and do, but not in this country. Here is just one link about 1936 technology that can obtain high mileage, that is not being used. Today's Vehicle Can Achieve 100 MPG, Proven by Resurrected Technology From 1936 -- SALEM, Ohio, Nov. 24, 2014 /PRNewswire/ --
Another link about high mileage vehicles in the USA. 50+ MPG Cars "Not Allowed" in USA | Alternative

Now I'm not going to go search through a bunch of old patent info, but the fact is high mileage carburetor technology has been out there since the 1950's.

The fact is some high mileage vehicles are built here, but not sold here. Why? Not because of safety. It's all about money, bottom line.

I will give you the fact that propane is clean burning. Propane itself if leaked is not considered to be a pollutant. I never said it was. What I said is that when propane leaks it is a nasty fire/explosion possibility. Ever heard of a BLEVE? Propane fires often end with huge explosions. I also said propane equals a loss of power, and that it is more noticeable at higher altitudes, and this statement is true.

I don't know where you are getting your BTU facts, but here is a reliable source. Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From what I read LPG only gives you approx. 74% BTU per gallon compared to gas and diesel gives you up to 113% of BTU per gallon. Now by my calculation that is a roughly 25% drop in BTU from gasoline to propane. That is a large drop in power, and as I have said, much more noticeable at higher altitude.

I am not trying to tell you or anybody else what to do. You have formed the opinion that propane is the way you want to go. Maybe when your dredge motor hasn't got enough lift to pick up material 10 ft. deep you will understand. I just hope you don't have a fuel leak and blow your stuff up. Dennis

Dennis, you don't want to change your mind so I am going to stop trying to update you, I have better things to do. You are welcome to fear your BBQ if you choose but... I will point a couple things out.
~ My forum link about fuel cooling the cylinder was only a clear explanation of the process. Google it, that info is all over. Ever wonder why performance cars have a cold air intake or a fuel cooler? probably not...
~"no vapor will remove heat" Interesting opinion...have you ever noticed how it feels hotter or cooler when it humid? Ever wonder why? Probably not...
~ The link you posted on dieseling actually supports my statement that it can be caused by a lean burn...read what YOU posted and the supporting links with it.
~ Still waiting for you to show me why the feds don't allow high MPG cars.... I would prefer an explanation that doesn't involve a conspiracy theory. The article you posted talked a lot about the VW passat TDI not being allowed in the US but you have been able to buy one domestically for many years...oops. The 261 MPG VW car they talk actually is a un-named concept car that no one can buy anywhere...good proof ya got there
~ Your "BTU facts" are actually better than mine. I discounted LP at 36% and you give only 25% Thank you but you do not explain how this drop becomes greater at altitude for LP and not for gas

FYI - Lp is the #3 most used transportation fuel. Your children or grandchildren may likely be riding in a LP powered bus and city transit has used it for years.