questions about the Lost Dutchman

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I see the problem here, you think I care about whether you believe me or not.

Hardly

You should know I dont. It doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. If you want to know the answers to your basic questions on LDM history then I'm telling you to read the same books/documents that many of us have spent time reading. Then we can have a legitimate discussion on these matters. What I say is common knowledge.

Could hardly be common knowledge if everyone has to go buy the books first. Besides you still haven't given proper reference to the actual books of which you speak. Should everyone go search the universe to figure out the books which are on the homework reading list you feel in the minimum entrance qualification to speak with you?

Take some time to read and do some research before you accuse me of forging truths.

If I ever decide to accuse you of something you will know it. Asking you for verification is not an accusation.

You're not gonna come on here and demand me to give you anything. It doesn't work like that. I don't care about you.

No demands were made. You put something out, we ask for verification, you bawk like poultry, we formulate an opinion on credibility of both what you proffer and of you.

Don't make this so personal. It is not about you. Let us work with the information and seek truth through verification. OK?

You have the option to let it go.

 

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[gollum]

CN,

Let me jump in here. I understand Randy's problem. I have the same problem with people many times. There are some of us that have been researching this story for many years. We have read all the same books. Talked to all the same people. Many of us know what the rest think. There are no NEW facts out there regarding the Lost Dutchman. There are a TON of stories.

To the people that have been at this for a long time, there are some givens. We all know very well the basic story and sets of facts for that story. If you don't know those, then its up to you to do your own research. That, or you can ask the people that have been at this for a long time. We will usually tell you the answers to your questions, but won't always reference our answers (because those that know the story already know the sources). If you don't trust the answers given to you by those in the know, then don't ask in the first place. Your question should be to ask "WHERE do I find ...........?" That should give you the answer you seek. Say, "Where do I find exactly what Waltz said to Rhinehart Petrasch?" Then Randy, Myself, Joe, or one of many others will tell you that information is in Sims Ely's Book "The Lost Dutchman Mine" first printed in 1953. When our knowledge of basic facts regarding this story are questioned, we tend to get a little ornery, mostly because we have already done that research, and if you want proof, do your own research. You spend thousands of dollars on books and documents. You spend hours on Ancestry.com and Newspapers.com trying to find that one thing that everybody else has overlooked. You spend years hiking or riding through those mountains chasing down leads you have read and talked about. You spend the time and money traveling to different places so you can talk to some old timer that has a lifetime of personal knowledge on the subject. YOU do all that first, then come back and tell me how you feel when someone new to the conversation challenges your answer to a question.

Mike

 

[gollum]

another thing to keep in mind is that the information you get from some of us that have been at this a long time is a present. We give it freely. MOST old Dutch Hunters you never see on the forums. They are set in their minds and they don't want or need any input from anybody else, much less whacky fantasies about underground people, UFOs, Jesuit Hot Air Balloons, etc etc etc.

I am here, because I enjoy the interaction with people. Some of the people I have met online, I have gotten to be good friends with. We most all have offline friendships with each other, and if we have any questions, we ask each other via phone, email, etc. We are here because we want to be. Not for any other reason. I don't mind sharing a lot of the information that I have learned. Don't trust what I say.... AWESOME!.... then YOU spend your time and money just like I did to find the answer to your question.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

CN,

Let me jump in here. I understand Randy's problem. I have the same problem with people many times. There are some of us that have been researching this story for many years. We have read all the same books. Talked to all the same people. Many of us know what the rest think. There are no NEW facts out there regarding the Lost Dutchman. There are a TON of stories.

Wonderful. Just lay out a properly referenced summary of what you believe to be the verified facts.

To the people that have been at this for a long time, there are some givens. We all know very well the basic story and sets of facts for that story. If you don't know those, then its up to you to do your own research.

That is what I am doing here ( I might have mentioned that previously)

That, or you can ask the people that have been at this for a long time. We will usually tell you the answers to your questions, but won't always reference our answers (because those that know the story already know the sources).

You chose to speak as if on behalf of others, can I hold them to what you say?

If you don't trust the answers given to you by those in the know, then don't ask in the first place. Your question should be to ask "WHERE do I find ...........?"

Nice of you to be so generous as to point out what you think I should do. In fact public discussion forums are about anyone putting out an idea or claim and the ensuing discussion. Claims are subject to verification. Like it or not. The fallacy of 'I am some sort of expert so trust me' is just that, fallacy. Shirking peer review of proffered substantiation is tantamount to story telling. Admit that and all is fine, we understand that which is thusly presented.

That should give you the answer you seek. Say, "Where do I find exactly what Waltz said to Rhinehart Petrasch?" Then Randy, Myself, Joe, or one of many others will tell you that information is in Sims Ely's Book "The Lost Dutchman Mine" first printed in 1953. When our knowledge of basic facts regarding this story are questioned, we tend to get a little ornery,

Perhaps you would be more comfortable in some private venue rather than on a public forum where you want to be in some overlord position? Are we not all equal here?

mostly because we have already done that research, and if you want proof, do your own research.

What then is your purpose here if not to share information - especially when you self proclaim to be the expert?

You spend thousands of dollars on books and documents. You spend hours on Ancestry.com and Newspapers.com trying to find that one thing that everybody else has overlooked.

Interesting that. OK, so keep your secret tidbits secret as it pleases you, but why not spell out what is the supposed commonly known information? How does that harm you or anyone - unless it exposes underlying fraud?

You spend years hiking or riding through those mountains chasing down leads you have read and talked about. You spend the time and money traveling to different places so you can talk to some old timer that has a lifetime of personal knowledge on the subject. YOU do all that first, then come back and tell me how you feel when someone new to the conversation challenges your answer to a question.

I don't believe 'challenge' is the correct concept for anything I have done. I make no claim about veracity, just ask for verification. And by any form of logic, unverified is still nothing yet. No matter how many line up to say it is common knowledge. Almost nothing has been proven so far. We don't even have a good definition of what the myth is, verification of what it is to be searched for - let alone the clues to go find it.

Mike

If proper tactics and logic were applied, this thing, if there is actually a thing, might get solved. Or, keep up the myth.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Unlike the authors, TV producers, Apache Junction business owners, and gold claim sellers, it seems none of you have figured out that the REAL Lost Dutchman's gold mine, is the legend itself. I can't tell you how grateful I am to all of you for all of the deep belly laughs I get from reading your heartfelt posts! Please, keep looking and arguing - it IS great entertainment!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Unlike the authors, TV producers, Apache Junction business owners, and gold claim sellers, it seems none of you have figured out that the REAL Lost Dutchman's gold mine, is the legend itself. I can't tell you how grateful I am to all of you for all of the deep belly laughs I get from reading your heartfelt posts! Please, keep looking and arguing - it IS great entertainment!

 

[chlsbrns]

CHLSBRNS,

You stated that "ITS A FACT" that Waltz married a Hopi Indian woman. You started talking about Waltz Great Grandson that you knew. I found the reference to Karl Kopavi Waltz that I posted:

View attachment 1126170

When I asked you if your source was Karl Waltz, you replied:



You say now that your Waltz was not named Karl..........buuuuut in a different thread, you said something different:

View attachment 1126171

You freely cite Karl Kopavi Waltz as someone you know and have gotten information from. Looks like when I posted the reference to his story about trading salt to the ant people for gold, you got a little embarrassed and claimed Karl was NOT your source.

One thing that's worse than being a troll (or trollete) is being dishonest. I can't stand a liar.

Mike

You are showing posts from 2013! They are the reason why I did additional research and found the info that I found.

Karl is not his great grandsons name. Your point?

 

[chlsbrns]

All of the text below are quotes from a book on arizona history written by a historian. You can find the quotes at: https://archive.org/stream/historyarizonaa00oakgoog/historyarizonaa00oakgoog_djvu.txt

"Here as elsewhere I give full credit to the sources
on every point."

"I have consulted the Santa Fe archives, and have had
access to rich stores of the most important documentary
records from Spain and Mexico in my own and other
private collections ; and I have been especially fortu-
nate in being able to utilize, practically for the first time,
the work of Villagrd and several important documents
bearing on Ofiate's conquest, never before correctly
recorded"

"Doubtless writers will
continue to give inaccurate dates and details for Oiiate's
conquest; to seek new locations for Coronado's Cibola
and Tiguex ; to name Cabeza de Yaca as the discov-
erer of New Mexico, and speak of his descendants as
still living in the country ; to talk of the Aztecs and of
Montezuma in this northern region ; to describe Santa
F6 as the oldest town in the United States, dating its
foundation back to the sixteenth or fifteenth century,
or that of Tucson to the sixteenth ; to chronicle the
expedition of Pe&alosa to Quivira; to name the duke
of Alburquerque and other viceroys among the gov-
ernors of New Mexico ; to derive the name of Arizona
from 'arid zone/ or 'narizona,' the big-nosed woman;
to accept the current traditions of rich mines of gold
and silver discovered and worked by the Jesuits"

"My statements should be accepted
or disproved"

"North of the line I
find no records of mining operations in these early
times, though prospecting may have been prosecuted
to some extent, and though popular but whollj r un-
founded traditions have been current of rich mines
worked by the Jesuits"

"The
Jesuits of course — though the contrary is often alleged
— worked no mines, nor is there any evidence that in
Jesuit times there were any mining operations in Ari-
zona"

 

[gollum]

HAHAHAHAHA You act like 2013 is such a looooooooong time ago. You came to your friend's assistance when his outlandish story was challenged.

and I quote:



"MORE FACTS ON THE ANT PEOPLE THAN ON THE LDM" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mike

 

[chlsbrns]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA So now you are telling me that your NEW and IMPROVED Waltz great grandson is not the same person that you used as a reference previously (that is the descendant of a Waltz Hopi Indian Marriage)? WOW, WHAT A COINCIDENCE THAT YOU COULD BE FRIENDS WITH TWO PEOPLE CLAIMING TO HAVE BEEN DESCENDED FROM JACOB WALTZ AND A HOPI INDIAN WOMAN! AMAZING!

Like I said, one thing worse than a troll is a liar.

Why not have your friend step in and back you up? Why not give his first name, so we can check out his bonifides?

Mike

I wont hold my breath waiting for you to show me where I said that I was "friends" with waltzs greatgrandson. I did speak with him yesterday but would not say that we are friends.

Do your own research! Maybe someday you will be able to verify something that you "think" or "believe"

 

[chlsbrns]

Do me a favor. While looking thru my old posts, when you find the pdf court records showing that waltz was in court for stealing gold, post that link.

Thanks!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

CN,

Just make sure that you do not post links to historical facts in history books written by historians that wipe away all of his I think and I believe state!ents or you will really be attacked!

I am not sure I could identify a fact around here even if one was found to be verified biting me min the hinder.

 

[austin]

Research? Books written by historians? Magazine subscriptions? I suggest you do some real primary research in the archives in Mexico City and the archives of the Council of the Indies in Spain. Maybe the Library of Congress too. In the original language with your own translation, not some secondary source you folks try to believe. But before you do, listen to Terry Soloman and save a great deal of money. You are chasing rainbows, nothing more.

 

[Hal Croves]

Research? Books written by historians? Magazine subscriptions? I suggest you do some real primary research in the archives in Mexico City and the archives of the Council of the Indies in Spain. Maybe the Library of Congress too. In the original language with your own translation, not some secondary source you folks try to believe. But before you do, listen to Terry Soloman and save a great deal of money. You are chasing rainbows, nothing more.

You are obviously implying that you have had the good fortune of seeing those things yourself. If correct, did you ever specifically research the topic of Jesuits and lost mines in Mexico/Arizona?

 

[gollum]

Austin,

Actually I can translate Spanish (Colonial and Castilan). I can read Spanish in Italica, Cortesana, and Procesal. I posted a simple translation of an edict by the King of Spain detailing his displeasure with the fact that even in the light of previously posted laws prohibiting Religiosos & Clerigos from working in the business of mining, this illegal activity was still being done in amounts such that it was affecting his Royal Treasury. So I ask if you have a problem with the translation? I can provide you a link to the same book written in its native Spanish.

..... or is it that you have a problem with it because it is in direct conflict with what you have been taught?

Just wondering.

AGAIN, before posting things such as you post, I highly recommend going through this thread:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

I know it is long, but there is a LOT of referenced information.

I have sources all over the world when it comes to research. Someone on this forum recently returned from a trip to the Vatican Archives. I have contacts I correspond with often in the Jesuit Curia, and a couple of long time family friends (one retired) from El Colegio de Mexico in Mexico City. I have been to more of Mexico than most Mexicans in my life. I have also spent time all over Central and Northern South America (that was mostly Military though with a different mission). And when it comes to many things Jesuit, I like to ask my friend Father John O'Malley SJ who is a Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University.

You say that you are a credentialed Professor. Great. Not that I doubt you, but since you make the claim, maybe you could identify yourself?

My name is Mike McChesney from the Los Angeles area.

Mike

 

[jeff of pa]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA So now you are telling me that your NEW and IMPROVED Waltz great grandson is not the same person that you used as a reference previously (that is the descendant of a Waltz Hopi Indian Marriage)? WOW, WHAT A COINCIDENCE THAT YOU COULD BE FRIENDS WITH TWO PEOPLE CLAIMING TO HAVE BEEN DESCENDED FROM JACOB WALTZ AND A HOPI INDIAN WOMAN! AMAZING!

Like I said, one thing worse than a troll is a liar.

Why not have your friend step in and back you up? Why not give his first name, so we can check out his bonifides?

Mike

Mike , May I suggest you avoid discussing The Lost Dutchman at TreasureNet for Awhile ?

I have half a Mind to delete all your posts from it anyway.

YOU APPARENTLY CAN'T PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS

 

[deducer]

Research? Books written by historians? Magazine subscriptions? I suggest you do some real primary research in the archives in Mexico City and the archives of the Council of the Indies in Spain. Maybe the Library of Congress too. In the original language with your own translation, not some secondary source you folks try to believe. But before you do, listen to Terry Soloman and save a great deal of money. You are chasing rainbows, nothing more.

Here is an example of "primary research" that some of us do.



But keep on pontificating, professor. I'm getting a kick out of it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

So Terry and Austni, you say that Tayopa, among others, dosn''t exist ??

 

[jeff of pa]

Really? You would be deleting a lot of good information.

I wouldn't like that.

Neither would I

 

[rebel003]

Thanks for all the reply's to the questions both here and the PM's. Sorry stirring up a hornets nest by asking questions. Guess I need to stick to dredging to get my gold...