Why were the Peraltas and crew massacred?

[coazon de oro]

Bill,

I'm well aware of the history of the Pima's and Apache. I thought we were talking about the 1800s. I don't believe there is any historical documentation of the Apache massacring 500 or so Mexicans (Peralta's) in the 1800s. Basically just stories related to treasure hunting and rumors. It's all about someone trying to make a buck.

Kidnapping of white or Mexican children was primarily for bringing them into the different tribes to bolster their population. Future warriors or wives/slaves.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Howdy Joe,

You are both right, and wrong here, bear with me as I give you my honest opinion on what occurred. Hang in there for a few more years, and I will present some proof as to what I say.

I believe the Peralta massacre took place in 1847 when the Mexican/American war was taking place. Whether the Peraltas tried to make one last haul when the war broke out, or got caught in the Superstitions working their mines when the war broke out.

The fact is that the Apache had been fighting the Spanish/Mexicans for many years, as they were the ones who had claimed and ruled the land. When the Americans went to war with Mexico, they told talked to the leaders of different Native tribes, and assured them that the they would be better off if the Americans won, and convinced them to be their allies.

The Apache, and other tribes did not record who they killed, and did not just kill Mexican soldiers. The Americans were not going to keep records of all the Mexican civilians killed by their allies, but you can rest assured that they were numerous. In fact on article eleven of the Guadalupe De Hidalgo Treaty it was requested that the U.S. prevent, and punish indian raids.

In my honest opinion, this is why the Peraltas were massacred, with no recorded documentation of it, yet documented that in fact many such Mexican massacres took place since the war broke out until 1853.

Homar

 

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[Azquester]

Bill,

I'm well aware of the history of the Pima's and Apache. I thought we were talking about the 1800s. I don't believe there is any historical documentation of the Apache massacring 500 or so Mexicans (Peralta's) in the 1800s. Basically just stories related to treasure hunting and rumors. It's all about someone trying to make a buck.

Kidnapping of white or Mexican children was primarily for bringing them into the different tribes to bolster their population. Future warriors or wives/slaves.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

No, but here's one:

Title: Massacre at Skeleton Cave
Author:
R.G.Willson


Article Date:
January 26, 1975


Article Abstract:
75 Apaches were killed by U.S. soldiers at Skeleton Cave prsent-day Canyon Lake, Dec.29, 1872.

The articles are all from the DRSW at the Arizona State Museum.


Look at all the Massacre's that happened in Arizona. Not only in the 1800's but through out the history of the state.

Search | UAiR: University of Arizona Institutional Repository

 

[captain1965]

I think the remains found at massacre ground were that of Esteban de Dorantes, Estebanico and his Entourage.

 

[EarnieP]

I think the remains found at massacre ground were that of Esteban de Dorantes, Estebanico and his Entourage.

I take it you're not referring to Esteban the Moor from the 1500's, but to a later Esteban de Dorantes from the 1800's?

 

[cactusjumper]

QUOTE=Bill Riley;4950872]No, but here's one:



The articles are all from the DRSW at the Arizona State Museum.


Look at all the Massacre's that happened in Arizona. Not only in the 1800's but through out the history of the state.

Search | UAiR: University of Arizona Institutional Repository[/QUOTE]

Bill,

Believe the Indians killed at Skeleton Cave were Guwevkabaya/Yavapai. A prime example of the mistaken identity that was often visited upon tribes for sins of the Apache.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Brother Bill,
The continual abuses (physical, sexual, emotional) of a greed driven invader hopefully would inspire any people to rebellion and acts of violence.

As for example with the Pueblo in NM, 1680-92.

Please do continue;

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

My sources (not all of them) are the manuscript of Hoomothya, who was the only member of the tribe in the cave, not killed in the massacre, "Surviving Conquest: A History of the Yavapai Peoples" by Timothy Braatz and "Carlos Montezuma, M.D.: A Yavapai American Hero". All good reading for anyone interested.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azquester]

Could we have proof of the existance of Exploration in the Superstition Mountains?

Kino's own map depicts the Supers as Sierra Grande with an image of Weavers Needle right on it. I aslo found reference to Rio Sierra Azul which is the Salt that also has mention of Silver Discoveries (Queen Creek) in the DRSW.

View attachment 1302948

 

[cactusjumper]

Could we have proof of the existance of Exploration in the Superstition Mountains?

Kino's own map depicts the Supers as Sierra Grande with an image of Weavers Needle right on it. I aslo found reference to Rio Sierra Azul which is the Salt that also has mention of Silver Discoveries (Queen Creek) in the DRSW.

View attachment 1302948

Bill,

Kino's "Grande" mountains are north of the Salt River. More likely depicting the Four Peaks area. There is no record of him going much farther than Casa Grande.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Bill,

Kino's "Grande" mountains are north of the Salt River. More likely depicting the Four Peaks area. There is no record of him going much farther than Casa Grande.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

There is one but it may be a fictional account. I have not been able to confirm it either way. Actually a beautiful story.

 

[cactusjumper]

There is one but it my be a fictional account. I have not been able to confirm it either way. Actually a beautiful story.

Hal,

Can you give us a quick synopsis of the story?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Can you give us a quick synopsis of the story?

Thanks,

Joe

MANUELITA THE STORY OF SAN XAVIER DEL BAC

Let me know what you think.

"Here in the little Indian villages FatherKino would spend some days teaching and seeking to ameliorate the condition of the people. He found the Moqui towns built in isolated mountain regions, hundreds of feet above the valleys, and approached by narrow defiles easily defended by a few men. In the delta formed by the two Colorados were the seven Moqui towns: they were remarkable for their sobriety, honesty, and morality, and were so prominent at one time that the name Moqui was vaguely applied to the whole region north of the Gila River. They are said to have been visited by the earliest Spanish explorers, and have a claim to as great antiquity as any other tribe. They were pueblas, or townspeople, as the Spaniards termed those tribes who lived in permanently built dwellings."

 

[cactusjumper]

MANUELITA THE STORY OF SAN XAVIER DEL BAC

Let me know what you think.

"Here in the little Indian villages FatherKino would spend some days teaching and seeking to ameliorate the condition of the people. He found the Moqui towns built in isolated mountain regions, hundreds of feet above the valleys, and approached by narrow defiles easily defended by a few men. In the delta formed by the two Colorados were the seven Moqui towns: they were remarkable for their sobriety, honesty, and morality, and were so prominent at one time that the name Moqui was vaguely applied to the whole region north of the Gila River. They are said to have been visited by the earliest Spanish explorers, and have a claim to as great antiquity as any other tribe. They were pueblas, or townspeople, as the Spaniards termed those tribes who lived in permanently built dwellings."

Hal,

No big surprise here, but I do have an opinion of Ms. Wilson's book. Like her other works, this one is a romantic novel. In other words, it's fiction. I researched Kino's desire to visit the Moqui some time ago. Believe I posted it somewhere.....maybe even here. Can't remember. Nice try though.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I would strongly suggest you read "Luz De Tierra Incognita......" from the translation of Captain Juan Mateo Manje's writings. Kino knew a great deal about the Moqui tribe. From page 248 we read this:

"For several years past, as related by the older Pimas, the Sobaipuris had trading communication with the Moquinos, establishing fairs and markets among themselves. This is the reason the Pimas give such accurate information on the Province of Moqui, of the location of their pueblos, of their government and other matters."

Many of the details of Kino's maps, came from the Pima.

Take care,

Joe

 

[starman 1]

Hello Hal:

This:

The nations of America are certainly of great antiquity. Many writers advance physical and psychological comparisons to prove ethnological resemblances among the races of America, and agree that there exists a greater uniformity between them than is found in the races of the old world. They tell us that twenty different languages were found within the boundaries of New Spain; not simply dialects, but essentially different; all, however, with one exception, confined to the peculiar synthetic structure upon which they were all based, using the fewest possible words to convey the greatest number of ideas, in fact condensing whole sentences often into a single word, displaying wonderful ingenuity, in which a writer on the subject tells us that, ‘‘some discern the hand of the philosopher, while others only the spontaneous effort of the savage.’’


The ability of a language to consolidate thought and feeling into a stream of images that can be expressed in a single word is the major accomplishment of an ancient tongue that combined being and becoming. Such a language has never since existed. The ability to see a runner and comprehend the soul of the runner is very, very special. Perhaps the effort of the savage and the hand of the Philosopher is for all purposes one and the same.


Starman

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I agree Starman,but we also have that ability in our language, for example what does "OH" convey.?? There are many other examples, 'intent is the key'.

OH ''
OH ??
OH !!
OH disgust
OH hurt
and on.

 

[EarnieP]

Hello Hal:

This:

The nations of America are certainly of great antiquity. Many writers advance physical and psychological comparisons to prove ethnological resemblances among the races of America, and agree that there exists a greater uniformity between them than is found in the races of the old world. They tell us that twenty different languages were found within the boundaries of New Spain; not simply dialects, but essentially different; all, however, with one exception, confined to the peculiar synthetic structure upon which they were all based, using the fewest possible words to convey the greatest number of ideas, in fact condensing whole sentences often into a single word, displaying wonderful ingenuity, in which a writer on the subject tells us that, ‘‘some discern the hand of the philosopher, while others only the spontaneous effort of the savage.’’


The ability of a language to consolidate thought and feeling into a stream of images that can be expressed in a single word is the major accomplishment of an ancient tongue that combined being and becoming. Such a language has never since existed. The ability to see a runner and comprehend the soul of the runner is very, very special. Perhaps the effort of the savage and the hand of the Philosopher is for all purposes one and the same.


Starman

To quote that latest generation of philosopher savages; "True that!"

 

[sdcfia]

I agree Starman,but we also have that ability in our language, for example what does "OH" convey.?? There are many other examples, 'intent is the key'.

OH ''
OH ??
OH !!
OH disgust
OH hurt
and on.

"up": 2 Letter Word with 100 Meanings

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC, I am shocked, shocked, at your language

 

[EarnieP]

How about the word "Duh"?
Short word expressing much, and often evoking strong reaction .
Some times followed by the unspoken sentiment "smack!"