The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Real of Tayopa]

iNJUN BRO, i did and read about the fight, for the official Army report,--

https://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/huachuca/HI2-05.htm

Note where the official in charge said " those Yaqui were as good as any Apache "

They had a about a dozen of mixed rifles, the rest was ammunition

The Yaqui have free movement through the Border into the US and Mexico, they earned it.

 

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[Injunbro]

Under similar circumstances, what did the Apache do ?? Simply fade away?
Note where the official in charge said " those Yaqui were as good as any Apache "
Join me in coffee, ya scroungy half breed.??

Well the Apache lasted over 20 years, your Yaquis lasted 30 minutes, do the math. And note the Apaches were the standard the others were measured against...
Ok, now for the ... aaahhhh!!! @ least it ain't that bitter tea stuff! You ain't too bad a guy for a Oirishman (my ancestors had a weak moment & let the little, red-headed rejects from the fog enshrouded, wet, windy, tiny islands in the north sea where even the scrawny English used to whup up on them stay here).

 

[azdave35]

Well the Apache lasted over 20 years, your Yaquis lasted 30 minutes, do the math. And note the Apaches were the standard the others were measured against...
Ok, now for the ... aaahhhh!!! @ least it ain't that bitter tea stuff! You ain't too bad a guy for a Oirishman (my ancestors had a weak moment & let the little, red-headed rejects from the fog enshrouded, wet, windy, tiny islands in the north sea where even the scrawny English used to whup up on them stay here).

the apaches might have been top dogs around here....but if they had tangled with the lakota ..comanche...cherokee..or the cheyenne....they may have gotten a dose of their own nasty medicine

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Howdy 1/2 injun, I hope no-one takes our lil runs as our personal beliefes,those days are gone, that said here are some of the reference YAQUI vs apache.

once was looking into the indian tribes that were named by the Spanish. They didn't think much about the dirty Apache, and admired the Opata's. Said that a single Opata could handle 5 Apache.

I don't know if you ever heard of Master Sergeant Raul "Roy" Perez Benavidez? He was a congressional medal of honor recieptiant, from a Mexican Father, and a Yaqui Mother. If you haven't, watch one of his many videos to see what a Yaqui is made of. A battleship was named after him.

This was from a mutual friend that has many friends among the various tribes - however no MOHICANS, unless you count Me, with a tiny bit, real injuns, but they did favor burning at the stake.

 

[cactusjumper]

Well the Apache lasted over 20 years, your Yaquis lasted 30 minutes, do the math. And note the Apaches were the standard the others were measured against...
Ok, now for the ... aaahhhh!!! @ least it ain't that bitter tea stuff! You ain't too bad a guy for a Oirishman (my ancestors had a weak moment & let the little, red-headed rejects from the fog enshrouded, wet, windy, tiny islands in the north sea where even the scrawny English used to whup up on them stay here).

Injunbro,

I would not be so quick to judge the Yaqui's. Father Perez de Ribas, S.J., who lived among the Yaqui from 1606 to 1617 wrote this:

"They were considered by the Spaniards to be the most valiant, belligerent and independent of all the numerous Indian Nations of New Spain. That great Chronicler of the Indies, don Antonio de Herrera, states that Captain Nuno de Guzman, one of the first explorers into this country, claimed them to be the most savage of all the Indian Nations. That most famous of all Indian fighters of the northern frontier, Captain Diego Martinez de Hurdaid, told me that he had never found in another Indian Nation a courage in battle equal to that of the Yaquis. Rather than losing heart at seeing the bodies of their dead comrades piled before them, they would use the dead for for barricades, placing their feet upon the bodies to take better aim with their arrows, and shout in defiance to the enemy to continue the slaughter." (The only way the Apache would accept death, is if there was no place to run.)
"MY LIFE AMONG THE SAVAGE NATIONS OF NEW SPAIN"

After a heated battle with Captain Diego de Hurdaide, in which the Spaniard suffered a great defeat at the hands of the Yaqui, the natives realized that their victory would only bring greater numbers of Spaniards into their land and sued for peace. It was successful.

The Yaqui had a well earned reputation for battle.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Injunbro]

Howdy 1/2 injun, This was from a mutual friend that has many friends among the various tribes - however no MOHICANS, unless you count Me, with a tiny bit, real injuns, but they did favor burning at the stake.

Don Jose, Actually there never were any Mohicans except in James Fennimore Coopers book. The Mohawk tribe was divided between the Mahican & Mohegans. The Mohegan subgroup became extinct a long time ago & Cooper screwed up the names in his fictional book. Yeah, I'm part Mohawk too as are all, including you, who are descended from those who participated in the in-your-face "Just try to take this scalp Whitey!" bunch.
To those who claim Apache inferiority I'd like to offer the same thing General Howard did on his mission of peace w/ Cochise. A couple of Whites said they wanted to kill his 2 Apache guides & Howard stated,' You mean murder, however if you want to try I'll let them loose in the mountain along w/ you & see whose still alive in an hour!' The Whites suddenly remembered appointments elsewhere & went back to where their mamas could protect them. Now I don't expect most of the little girls patty-cake club will leave their comfortable cities to chase around in the mountains w/ a grumpy, 240lb. 1/2 breed who used to be a weight lifter, undefeated wrestler & boxer & can still shoot a buffalo rifle accurately @ 1,000 yards even though I'm old, arthritic, gray-haired, crippled, broke my back, leg, skull, crushed a foot & most of my fingers & toes but maybe I can round up a couple 10 year-old girls to make it fair... Warning: they might have a few sharp objects like pencils or pocket combs to make you cry! (man it's fun agitating Whiteys who sit around badgering the Englishman who has the good taste to appreciate Apaches & blathering the names of other tribes who gave up 50 years before the Nde`!)
Hopefully Crowfriend will show up w/ some more interesting pictures & input to get this thread back to it's origins... in the meantime I'll go read somewhere else so you can go back to trying to impress the Englishman w/ your wit & words.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose, Actually there never were any Mohicans except in James Fennimore Coopers book. The Mohawk tribe was divided between the Mahican & Mohegans. The Mohegan subgroup became extinct a long time ago & Cooper screwed up the names in his fictional book. Yeah, I'm part Mohawk too as are all, including you, who are descended from those who participated in the in-your-face "Just try to take this scalp Whitey!" bunch.
To those who claim Apache inferiority I'd like to offer the same thing General Howard did on his mission of peace w/ Cochise. A couple of Whites said they wanted to kill his 2 Apache guides & Howard stated,' You mean murder, however if you want to try I'll let them loose in the mountain along w/ you & see whose still alive in an hour!' The Whites suddenly remembered appointments elsewhere & went back to where their mamas could protect them. Now I don't expect most of the little girls patty-cake club will leave their comfortable cities to chase around in the mountains w/ a grumpy, 240lb. 1/2 breed who used to be a weight lifter, undefeated wrestler & boxer & can still shoot a buffalo rifle accurately @ 1,000 yards even though I'm old, arthritic, gray-haired, crippled, broke my back, leg, skull, crushed a foot & most of my fingers & toes but maybe I can round up a couple 10 year-old girls to make it fair... Warning: they might have a few sharp objects like pencils or pocket combs to make you cry! (man it's fun agitating Whiteys who sit around badgering the Englishman who has the good taste to appreciate Apaches & blathering the names of other tribes who gave up 50 years before the Nde`!)
Hopefully Crowfriend will show up w/ some more interesting pictures & input to get this thread back to it's origins... in the meantime I'll go read somewhere else so you can go back to trying to impress the Englishman w/ your wit & words.

Injunbro,

Most of the Apache started giving up long before Geronimo went on the run. He had to come back to the reservations and "kidnap" Apache to keep his numbers up. The numbers of those on the reservations far outnumbered those on the warpath.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Don Jose, Actually there never were any Mohicans except in James Fennimore Coopers book. The Mohawk tribe was divided between the Mahican & Mohegans. The Mohegan subgroup became extinct a long time ago & Cooper screwed up the names in his fictional book. Yeah, I'm part Mohawk too as are all, including you, who are descended from those who participated in the in-your-face "Just try to take this scalp Whitey!" bunch.
To those who claim Apache inferiority I'd like to offer the same thing General Howard did on his mission of peace w/ Cochise. A couple of Whites said they wanted to kill his 2 Apache guides & Howard stated,' You mean murder, however if you want to try I'll let them loose in the mountain along w/ you & see whose still alive in an hour!' The Whites suddenly remembered appointments elsewhere & went back to where their mamas could protect them. Now I don't expect most of the little girls patty-cake club will leave their comfortable cities to chase around in the mountains w/ a grumpy, 240lb. 1/2 breed who used to be a weight lifter, undefeated wrestler & boxer & can still shoot a buffalo rifle accurately @ 1,000 yards even though I'm old, arthritic, gray-haired, crippled, broke my back, leg, skull, crushed a foot & most of my fingers & toes but maybe I can round up a couple 10 year-old girls to make it fair... Warning: they might have a few sharp objects like pencils or pocket combs to make you cry! (man it's fun agitating Whiteys who sit around badgering the Englishman who has the good taste to appreciate Apaches & blathering the names of other tribes who gave up 50 years before the Nde`!)
Hopefully Crowfriend will show up w/ some more interesting pictures & input to get this thread back to it's origins... in the meantime I'll go read somewhere else so you can go back to trying to impress the Englishman w/ your wit & words.

i'm not saying apache are inferior...i'm just saying there are many other tribes that were just as fierce...cunning and tough........like i told you before..i'm part indian..just one of the five civilized tribes.....if i remember correctly...didnt the comanche run the apache out of texas?..the apache mostly picked on the peaceful tribes like pima..papago and maricopa.....if the comanche..cheyenne or lakota had been in arizona i dont think the apaches would have stuck around .....what is your opinion on this?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

1/2 Injun, so in general makeup we are alike, I too was a weight lifter, but only 140 lbs, 150 lb clean and jerk one arm. Beat the Mexican national pistol champ, had aircraft incidents which left me somewhat, er incapacitated, am gray headed, what's left of it, tis kinda thin now, not like that hairy ape joe, R. but am good for my 150 th birthday. Be sure that you're there.

Incidentally,so yer kinda beat up. that sort of thing happens when you have to jump out of second floor windows of a Girly house don't know whether to "Shame on you, or congrats on being a real man.

https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/indian-tribes/mohican-tribe.htm

 

[Injunbro]

.....if the comanche..cheyenne or lakota had been in arizona i dont think the apaches would have stuck around .....what is your opinion on this?

Actually agitation is just one of my hobbies, it's amusing to watch peoples hair catch fire. I see no one has taken the challenge against the 2 10-year-old girls which shows even Whiteys have some sense... OK, My opinion is: superior firepower always wins. The Spanish stomped the Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, etc. although their civilization was in many ways superior (running water, pyramid building, medicine, etc.) because of superior weapons. The Apaches were unbeatable in the mountains where they chose to live (the name Nde means "the people of the mountains"), the Comanche's were the finest light cavalry, the Lakotas had large numbers & were bigger & physically stronger than any other cavalrymen, the Cheyennes were as big & skillful as the Lakotas but less numerous. I've studied them all & know several in person but have little personal experience outside of Mohawk, Apache & their relatives the Yavapais, Hualapais & Navajos. It's been proven an Apache can disappear right before your eyes in even small rocks because their method of warfare includes teaching how to use light & perception to trick enemies. Ever see a grown man "disappear" behind a basketball size rock? It's easier than you think if you understand the concept of camouflage (break up the outline so it's not recognizable). We're used to thinking of men upright or prone but if you lay down & dig the toes of your feet in & tuck your fingers up then bend knees & elbows so they aren't straight like you're used to seeing, drop weeds or some grass randomly to break up arm & leg outlines then put your head behind the rock you'd be amazed how many people will walk by within 10' & have no clue you're there, especially if you're in an area they don't expect you to be (they expect you to hide behind a tree or large rock). My opinion is given equal firepower Apaches are unbeatable in the mountains, on horse back the Comanches might give a good fight, for outright size Cheyennes & Lakotas have an advantage. Yavapais & Hualapais are Apache wannabes... Pimas, Tohono Oodhams, etc. are superior @ growing squash & Navajos weave nice rugs...

Don Jose: I've never needed girly houses since I chased a beautiful young blonde lady (until she caught me) a long time ago, we've been married most of our adult lives... unlike some of you Oirish who couldn't find anyone until your 3rd or 4th decade & snagged one 1/4 your age (or less). Let the record show it wasn't me who accused you of having to wait until she was out of diapers to swap her for the mule you'd been smooching!

 

[azdave35]

Actually agitation is just one of my hobbies, it's amusing to watch peoples hair catch fire. I see no one has taken the challenge against the 2 10-year-old girls which shows even Whiteys have some sense... OK, My opinion is: superior firepower always wins. The Spanish stomped the Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, etc. although their civilization was in many ways superior (running water, pyramid building, medicine, etc.) because of superior weapons. The Apaches were unbeatable in the mountains where they chose to live (the name Nde means "the people of the mountains"), the Comanche's were the finest light cavalry, the Lakotas had large numbers & were bigger & physically stronger than any other cavalrymen, the Cheyennes were as big & skillful as the Lakotas but less numerous. I've studied them all & know several in person but have little personal experience outside of Mohawk, Apache & their relatives the Yavapais, Hualapais & Navajos. It's been proven an Apache can disappear right before your eyes in even small rocks because their method of warfare includes teaching how to use light & perception to trick enemies. Ever see a grown man "disappear" behind a basketball size rock? It's easier than you think if you understand the concept of camouflage (break up the outline so it's not recognizable). We're used to thinking of men upright or prone but if you lay down & dig the toes of your feet in & tuck your fingers up then bend knees & elbows so they aren't straight like you're used to seeing, drop weeds or some grass randomly to break up arm & leg outlines then put your head behind the rock you'd be amazed how many people will walk by within 10' & have no clue you're there, especially if you're in an area they don't expect you to be (they expect you to hide behind a tree or large rock). My opinion is given equal firepower Apaches are unbeatable in the mountains, on horse back the Comanches might give a good fight, for outright size Cheyennes & Lakotas have an advantage. Yavapais & Hualapais are Apache wannabes... Pimas, Tohono Oodhams, etc. are superior @ growing squash & Navajos weave nice rugs...

Don Jose: I've never needed girly houses since I chased a beautiful young blonde lady (until she caught me) a long time ago, we've been married most of our adult lives... unlike some of you Oirish who couldn't find anyone until your 3rd or 4th decade & snagged one 1/4 your age (or less). Let the record show it wasn't me who accused you of having to wait until she was out of diapers to swap her for the mule you'd been smooching!

i've been accused of being an agitator myself a few times....as far as the 10 year old girls go..i like my women a little older (at least 18)..lol

 

[Real of Tayopa]

well,1/2 injun, ya gotta admit she was durn cute - the mule. However I have never touched, another woman since I married my Bert after a 3 year old Fashioned, Formal, Spanish courtship, complete with serenades the bans, etc. and on, ya find the right one you stop looking, I did. We were married in 58, with a full mass. Now have 3 great, grand , kiddies. I nticed you said since.

Yes, my friend, I know what you are speaking about using partial coverage to disappear, the **** -- ok, ok the Japanese, taught me that at Guadalcanal.in 42. and the Mexican illegal while i was in the Border Patrol.It's positively amazing how a wet could hide and even disappear behind a row of carrots..

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro, Don

I think that many have missed the gist of what we have been discussing here..., of course we know and accept that the time and environment in which the Apache had their run-ins with the Spanish, Mexicans, Americans and even other Natives was an exceptionally harsh time, but they perservered in trying to maintain their 'free' life in the face of overwhelming odds.

It was a hopeless task to be sure, but they still wanted to be masters of their own destiny even, nearly, at the total loss of their people, and I specifically mean the Chiricahua.

To say that they would have been "done" by this tribe or that or even that they were described as "cowards", "thiefs", "surly", "belligerent" etc., is again not acknowledging that they found tried and tested methods to survive in the most harshest of environments. In fact, they excelled. Given their numbers, their impact was enormous.

The Comanche had given up, the Lakota had accepted their defeat; the mighty Sitting Bull was a sideshow in the Buffalo Bill 'extravaganza' whilst Geronimo, Chief Naiche, Magnus et al were still living as their ancestors did..., and Ulzana was leading the most spectacular raid of all...

Whitey had planted himself in the Southwest to exploit its resources, but could never understand or accept the lengths the Apache went to in trying to stop them. It was a question of "being" more than anything else.

The mode of warfare adopted by the Apache was amazingly in synchronisation with the difficult terrain that encompassed their homeland. To accuse them of being underhand or 'scared' really is a misnomer.

Look at the current fight against the fascist, fundamentalist terrorists in the Middle East. Is the US and the West 'scared' to face them face-to-face simply because of the massive air campaign against them? Of course not, it is a case of strategic fighting whilst making best use of one's resources and maximising the effect on the opposition. Was the Apache modus operandi any different?

Whitey, his horses, rations, morale would tire very quickly in the harsh environment that the Apache loved more than anything else, so it could be said that it was with grudgingly admiration that whitey hated to operate against the Apache. To a people that were described as "weak", why oh why was so much focus, attention, resources aimed at the Apache if they weren't considered major players?

Finally, when whitey talks about racism that he/she might have come across personally, they remember each and every detail and will recount it at every opportunity. Imagine being on the receiving end of hostility, prejudice, suspicion and hate every day. Having to live with the repercussions and outfall of such attitudes all your life, would it not taint one's view? It is nonsense to say whitey has been hard done by when whitey had in most instances had the upper hand.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

G'd morning IPUK. You mean sorta like the OIRISH against Britland fresh tea ??

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Those Paddies are lazy, sulking little girls' blouses that do not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the Great British who conquered and then civilised the world...


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

So you admit they were the Apache of Britland??

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Az, you must understand that the Brits have an interesting sense of humor.


Video for Beny Hill, videos▶ 5:02

 

[cactusjumper]

Injunbro, Don

I think that many have missed the gist of what we have been discussing here..., of course we know and accept that the time and environment in which the Apache had their run-ins with the Spanish, Mexicans, Americans and even other Natives was an exceptionally harsh time, but they perservered in trying to maintain their 'free' life in the face of overwhelming odds.

It was a hopeless task to be sure, but they still wanted to be masters of their own destiny even, nearly, at the total loss of their people, and I specifically mean the Chiricahua.

To say that they would have been "done" by this tribe or that or even that they were described as "cowards", "thiefs", "surly", "belligerent" etc., is again not acknowledging that they found tried and tested methods to survive in the most harshest of environments. In fact, they excelled. Given their numbers, their impact was enormous.

The Comanche had given up, the Lakota had accepted their defeat; the mighty Sitting Bull was a sideshow in the Buffalo Bill 'extravaganza' whilst Geronimo, Chief Naiche, Magnus et al were still living as their ancestors did..., and Ulzana was leading the most spectacular raid of all...

Whitey had planted himself in the Southwest to exploit its resources, but could never understand or accept the lengths the Apache went to in trying to stop them. It was a question of "being" more than anything else.

The mode of warfare adopted by the Apache was amazingly in synchronisation with the difficult terrain that encompassed their homeland. To accuse them of being underhand or 'scared' really is a misnomer.

Look at the current fight against the fascist, fundamentalist terrorists in the Middle East. Is the US and the West 'scared' to face them face-to-face simply because of the massive air campaign against them? Of course not, it is a case of strategic fighting whilst making best use of one's resources and maximising the effect on the opposition. Was the Apache modus operandi any different?

Whitey, his horses, rations, morale would tire very quickly in the harsh environment that the Apache loved more than anything else, so it could be said that it was with grudgingly admiration that whitey hated to operate against the Apache. To a people that were described as "weak", why oh why was so much focus, attention, resources aimed at the Apache if they weren't considered major players?

Finally, when whitey talks about racism that he/she might have come across personally, they remember each and every detail and will recount it at every opportunity. Imagine being on the receiving end of hostility, prejudice, suspicion and hate every day. Having to live with the repercussions and outfall of such attitudes all your life, would it not taint one's view? It is nonsense to say whitey has been hard done by when whitey had in most instances had the upper hand.


IPUK

IPUK,

It could be that the Apache simply loved killing, torture and raiding. The history you are getting over there is not necessarily how things really were. You do seem to have a slight bias against America.

You keep talking about the Apache as if they were all of one mind. That was not true. When Geronimo and Naiche finally surrendered in 1866, there were only 34 of their people with them. The rest were already on reservations. A number of Apache had joined the army in hunting down those who were still on the warpath.

It's difficult to judge people from that era, either side, using the mind sets of today. Both sides fought a ruthless war. Our (military) side fought within the rules and boundaries of the day. That put them at a decided disadvantage in the field.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

IPUK,

It could be that the Apache simply loved killing, torture and raiding. The history you are getting over there is not necessarily how things really were. You do seem to have a slight bias against America.

You keep talking about the Apache as if they were all of one mind. That was not true. When Geronimo and Naiche finally surrendered in 1866, there were only 34 of their people with them. The rest were already on reservations. A number of Apache had joined the army in hunting down those who were still on the warpath.

It's difficult to judge people from that era, either side, using the mind sets of today. Both sides fought a ruthless war. Our (military) side fought within the rules and boundaries of the day. That put them at a decided disadvantage in the field.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

i think our limey friend is of the mindset of most of the new breed of idiots in the world today......they worship evil and shun Christianity...150 years ago we fought evil with the apache and tried everything in our power to abolish it...75 years ago evil reared its ugly head in germany and the world banded together and put a stop to hitler's evil...i dont see too much difference between the apaches and hitler...they both stole..tortured..murdered...raped..kidnapped...we hunted the apache down and stopped them...the entire world hunted the nazi's after the war and brought them to trial and hung them...some never made it to trial....to this day anything to do with the nazi regime is banned...but they worship the apaches for doing the same thing the nazi's did....it's a funny world we live in joe

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK,

It could be that the Apache simply loved killing, torture and raiding. The history you are getting over there is not necessarily how things really were. You do seem to have a slight bias against America.

You keep talking about the Apache as if they were all of one mind. That was not true. When Geronimo and Naiche finally surrendered in 1866, there were only 34 of their people with them. The rest were already on reservations. A number of Apache had joined the army in hunting down those who were still on the warpath.

It's difficult to judge people from that era, either side, using the mind sets of today. Both sides fought a ruthless war. Our (military) side fought within the rules and boundaries of the day. That put them at a decided disadvantage in the field.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

CJ,

The history "we get over here" is exactly the same you get over there, unless of course all the documentation, evidence and contemporary information exists in a parallel universe.

I do not have any "bias" against the US; I actually admire your country for its many successes and its ethos.

Further, I do not "talk of the Apache as if they were all of one mind." Please check my posts, I specifically refer to the Chiricahua time and again. If you have a different opinion, it is of your own making.

It is true that Geronimo and Naiche had a small band with them in the end, but the fact of the matter is this: from the 400 or so Chiricahua that were left, about 1/3 had broken out from the reservation and the others had been on the warpath in the previous years. Chihuahua and Nana's band were on the way to captivity in Florida before the 'renegades' had surrendered.

You claim that the US army fought "within the rules and boundaries of the day." Which was what exactly...?
Kill all boys and men off the reservation...? Attack rancherias even though they might only contain women and children...?

The 'mighty' US cavalry really covered itself in 'glory'when they took revenge on the Lakota at Wounded Knee for its humiliation and debacle at the Big Horn.

Check what Bourke said in his book 'On the Border with Crook' and Davis' in his book 'The truth about Geronimo' and see what they say about the Chiricahua, the 'moral' US cavalry, whitey's efforts in the Madres and the resilience of the 'renegades'. Not books by "bleeding heart liberals', not even "evil worshipping idiots" as described by one enlightened soul in a previous post, but by men - military officers - who fought against the 'evil' Apache.

Interesting stuff.


IPUK