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Thread: St.Augustine Florida bans metal detectors

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  1. #31

    Mar 2012
    CT
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Diver_Down View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LostinBolton View Post
    I am new here and expanding my hobby. I was going to St Aug. in May to my sisters in Palencia and was hoping to try the beaches. This might change my plans. Thanks for info.
    The beaches are fine. Being that you will be based out of Palencia, then I would suggest pounding the sand at Mickler's Landing. Villano would be my second choice, if I were you.
    Thanks for the tip Diver_Down, I will map this out before I go. And ask my sister about theses spots. She knows the area with her painting club.

  2. #32
    us
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    Waukesha (county) WI has had a permit system for years... I don't like it... but hasn't slowed down detecting as far as I can see. TTC
    ONE MIND - ANY WEAPON

  3. #33
    us
    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    Waukesha (county) WI has had a permit system for years... I don't like it... but hasn't slowed down detecting as far as I can see. TTC
    Is it a permit system, or a permission system, and does the city archaeologist get to make the call? And is that city archaeologist one of the few that have this nasty outlook on this hobby already? There are a lot of variables, in one are it might actually be a benefit, while in another area a complete nightmare for the hobbyist.

  4. #34
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    I don't know if my brother TerryC will answer soon Twisted One, but I suppose I could cut in for now. The permit is issued directly from the county clerks office, I think. Well anyway, I think the permit is more for calling attention to the fact that if you are good enough to ask they will give you a permit. I also think it makes the ne'r-do-wells stear clear. As for the FL coast, different ball game. TimC
    I knew a man who rode his horse backwards, because seeing where he has been was much less scary than seeing where he was going.

  5. #35

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Twisted one, you say: "The real threat is ....... from the Archaeologist, the historical society, and the preservationist"

    You're exactly right. Brilliantly put. And that's exactly why I say stay as far away from them as possible, off their radar. It is simply not possible to make archies "love you". The 2 endeavours are almost diametrically opposed (at least for "purist" archaeology). So it's often time best to steer clear of them. The less they see/hear from you (by requests for their sanctions crossing their desk), the better. Since it's simply not going to happen, the the unfortunate truth is, detecting is kinda like nose-picking: It requires a little .... uh ..... discreetness. If this bothers someone (that there are people out there who don't love their hobby, and aren't going to be made to love their hobby), then I fear they have chosen the wrong hobby.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  6. #36
    us
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    Nov 2011
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    It may seem kind of funny, If "They" ban metal detecting they may open pandora's box! They might find it may cause more interest/taboo than they want and could cause so much Illegal activity in such a large volume they will not be able to handle many of the arrests or court case loads. Frankly with all the Government cut backs, it would be a hard time for the enforcers. There are too many of us! (Not enough Chiefs to get all the Indians!) Look at it this way, Let's say tommorow the Gov were going to ban Booze! You know it would be available in no time and they could stop some but they can't stop it totally. I personally am not a law breaker but I am one for defending my rights. When New & Unfair laws are drawn up and created that we never had, this is wrong.
    My opinion: Life and the pursuit of happness has been working fine with out some selfish persons brain child.
    Thank You for the informing me about the problem/ban in St. Augustine Beach, Florida.
    GOLD IS WHERE YOU FIND IT.. IT CAN HIDE BUT WHEN REAL IT DON'T LIE!
    My Mama Never raised No Fool... I Was Adopted!

  7. #37
    us
    May 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post

    How many examples will I need to give you of this being "substantial", before you admit that this is an incorrect statement? Just let me know and I'll start rattling them off!
    Oh, 10 would do it for me......................
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  8. #38
    us
    Apr 2011
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    Tom, it's not a matter of whether we care how the archaeologist and people of like mindedness feel about our hobby, it is about the fact that they can have some control over our hobby. To me it's lot like a professional mechanic being in charge of a permit system for shade tree mechanic. They are not going to give out those permits, or permissions if they are going to lose money to the hobbyist mechanic.

    What I see in the near future, is at least several more areas going to this sort of permission system, or permit system in the next few months. When it does, there will be a ruckus through out the Internet, much worse then the current one, and it's going to shine a big light hobby. Either we are going to stand aside and watch as the archaeologist with the years of prepared arguments raise their voices to rally the historical societies, the preservation societies, and anyone else that knows nothing about the hobby, but will see it in a bad light thanks to the publicity, and start bringing about more laws, more regulations, and more limitations. In a few years they will have you registering your metal detectors like it's a gun, they are going to tell you that you can not own specific model, just like they outlawed automatic rifles, they will tell you what coil you can use, and which ones you can not.
    If you want to stand by and let these things happen, then enjoy the show. Myself, if I see it begin this summer, I will most likely sell my detector, and move on to needle point, or something more relaxing.

  9. #39

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Hi twisted. As I study your text, I see our dilema. For starters, we agree that

    1) archies don't love us, nor can be made to love us, right? And we agree that they're on the side of govt. (as they're usually on govt. payrolls, and ..... let's face it ... their craft, to begin with, is logically opposed to "collecting", etc....).

    2) going and asking for permits, permissions, sanctions, clarifications, etc... where none are needed now, can often result in the "powers that be" looking at these "pressing questions", with nothing but restrictive rules where ........ perhaps ...... none would ever have been required or thought of, till you came and asked. Because think of it: the mere fact that someone comes in and asks that their activity be "permitted" in some form or fashion (especially if pre-emptive), simply means the activity is not innocuous, and has/holds some form of "evil" (lest why would you be asking, if it were as innocent and harmless as flying frisbees? This implicit premise is not lost on the hearer!)

    Where we disagree is to the imminency of this "all detecting is going to be outlawed if we don't act now" mentality. If a person starts with that premise, then sure, the "sky is falling". Go for it. But this has not been proven as a "will happen". It's only conjecture (as clear-cut as it may be in your own mind). And since it's an "un-known" (no matter how imminent you THINK it is), you risk point #2 above (with will most certainly bring about the "sky is falling" results).
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  10. #40

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Twisted, lest you think I'm making this up, here's a true micro-example for you, that in my opinion, will and can be repeated on many different govt. scales:

    There was a certain man in a midwest state (I forget which state now), who was out detecting at a certain state park near him, next to a lake. The md'r had hunted this place for years, as had his friends, and no one had ever had a problem before. However, this time, a ranger came up and booted him. The md'r asks "why?". The ranger would only say "because it's not allowed". The dejected md'r didn't argue, and he left.

    He went home and decided to study the matter more. So he studied the entire state parks rules, laws, codes, etc... He could find NOTHING saying a person couldn't metal detect (barring obvious historic monuments, or barring silly morphing of extraneous verbage gymnastics). Armed with his new-found information that *technically* he shouldn't have been booted, the md'r decided he was going to rally some friends in solidarity, and fight this booting! (afterall, he enjoyed hunting his particular state park near him).

    During the course of the man's research into the matter, he had also discovered that the neighboring state actually had specific wording ALLOWING metal detecting (albeit only on sandy beaches perhaps, and with certain qualifications at others, etc....). The md'r thought to himself: "aha! that's what we need! Clarification specifically spelling this out, like my neighboring state. In that way, it's not left up to the whimsical arbitrary interpretations of some barney-fife ranger"

    So the man set about on a letter writing campaign to the state park's headquarters in the state capitol. He objected to his booting, and outlined and cited the neighbor's better system, to show how it would be much better if their state would implement such verbage, so that it's no longer arbitary and capricous. Weeks went by, and he got no response. So he made calls, left messages, and sent follow up letters, all signed by multiple other hobbyists he'd rallied behind his "booting". Still no response

    As the weeks dragged on, while waiting for a reply, he decided one day to go metal detecting. He chose another state park (not the same one he'd been booted from) elsewhere. This was also a park that was just generally always known to be open to detecting, where ......... also ..... no one had ever had a problem before. But lo & behold, a ranger came up and booted him. One that he'd even seen before in passing, who had never rendered anything more than a friendly wave in the past! The surprised md'r asked the ranger: "but why??" The ranger pulls a paper out of his pocket and unfolds it for the md'r to read for himself. It was a department memo, passed down to all the rank and file, in all the individual state parks in that state. It told the various staffs to "be on the lookout for md'ing, as this activity is not allowed". And when the md'r got to the bottom of the memo, guess who it was signed by Twisted One?? The very top official that the md'r had been soliciting in State capitol headquarters!!

    Do you get it? The md'r certainly did in a heartbeat! He realized right then and there that he had effectively just got EVERY single state park, in his state, put off limits now! Do you get it? True story! The man wished he'd just left "good enough alone" and just avoided the one first ranger, or that one park, etc....

    So please, take this story to heart. I know you think the "sky is falling", but believe me, while I'm not saying the show is a "good thing", please don't fall prey to the psychological trick of "projection" & "self-fulfilling prophecies".
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Mar 30, 2012 at 11:58 AM.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  11. #41
    us
    Dec 2008
    St. Augustine, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldentruth View Post
    ...
    Thank You for the informing me about the problem/ban in St. Augustine Beach, Florida.
    GoldenTruth - the ordinance is for St. Augustine NOT St. Augustine Beach. To reiterate to others that have been following the thread: St. Augustine and St. Augustine Beach are two separate towns/cities. St. Augustine has a city archaeologist. St. Augustine Beach does not.

  12. #42

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Hey Diver down, you want to know the quickest way to get St. Augustine Beach off-limits too? Is to go seeking clarifications, permits, sanctions, etc...... Be sure to use buzz-words like "dig" and "ARPA" and "treasure" and "cultural heritage", etc... (lest they not understand the full implications of your question).
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  13. #43
    us
    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Hey Diver down, you want to know the quickest way to get St. Augustine Beach off-limits too? Is to go seeking clarifications, permits, sanctions, etc...... Be sure to use buzz-words like "dig" and "ARPA" and "treasure" and "cultural heritage", etc... (lest they not understand the full implications of your question).

    Hey Tom, you know the quickest way to spend a year in jail? Go in there not knowing the laws, or having the knowledge it would require to fight a ruling against you in court when some ranger misinterprets the law.

  14. #44
    us
    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Hi twisted. As I study your text, I see our dilema. For starters, we agree that

    1) archies don't love us, nor can be made to love us, right? And we agree that they're on the side of govt. (as they're usually on govt. payrolls, and ..... let's face it ... their craft, to begin with, is logically opposed to "collecting", etc....).

    2) going and asking for permits, permissions, sanctions, clarifications, etc... where none are needed now, can often result in the "powers that be" looking at these "pressing questions", with nothing but restrictive rules where ........ perhaps ...... none would ever have been required or thought of, till you came and asked. Because think of it: the mere fact that someone comes in and asks that their activity be "permitted" in some form or fashion (especially if pre-emptive), simply means the activity is not innocuous, and has/holds some form of "evil" (lest why would you be asking, if it were as innocent and harmless as flying frisbees? This implicit premise is not lost on the hearer!)

    Where we disagree is to the imminency of this "all detecting is going to be outlawed if we don't act now" mentality. If a person starts with that premise, then sure, the "sky is falling". Go for it. But this has not been proven as a "will happen". It's only conjecture (as clear-cut as it may be in your own mind). And since it's an "un-known" (no matter how imminent you THINK it is), you risk point #2 above (with will most certainly bring about the "sky is falling" results).
    You are right on those first two points Tom. The part where you said we disagree, is true too, but it's because you are not understanding what I am suggesting. I am not suggesting this is going to happen over night, it will take years just like the current condition of many other laws, such as against guns, and smoking, they just add one little aspect of a law at a time, and over a few years, it eventually adds up to, well adds up to the fact that your rights have been tread on again.
    I am also not suggesting we take up arms, and beat the governments door down demanding our rights, or telling them to banish current laws.

    What I am suggesting is that people start doing their homework, especially for their specific area, and find a place to gather in an emergency like the Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights, or one of the other non-profits fighting these laws. I am suggesting that people get together and start putting together an alternative to banning, for those cases when it does arise. If people are ready to fight, the fight is easy, if we are taken by ambush then we don't stand a chance.
    If some California representative today wrote a bill banning metal detecting on the majority of what little public land we are still allowed to detect on, would we be able to fight it? Only if we knew about it, and then only to an extent. If someone, or some group already had an argument prepared we would have a lot better chance of winning a fight.
    It's the same as a defense attorney going to going to court, if he goes in blind, not knowing what he is defending, why he is defending it, or who he is defending it from, he is going to lose.
    If that same attorney foes into court prepared to argue the ruling, he has a chance of winning.

  15. #45
    Charter Member
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    Saint augustine beach is not off limits to metal detecting, I am not going to call anyone or ask anyone what I can and can't do on the beach ad far as detecting, it is already legal to hunt the beach there why would I start asking permission and open up a can of worms that does it need to be open.

    In orlando I hunt city parks and county park I don't ask permission to hunt there, there are no signs saying no detecting so why should i calll someone and ask permission to detect the park just as I don't ask permission to walk my dog on at the park or throw a frisbee at the park.
    Last edited by Treasure_Hunter; Mar 30, 2012 at 02:01 PM.
    Bunk likes this.




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