St.Augustine Florida bans metal detectors

[Twisted One]

For all of those people saying, that metal detecting is not under threat guess what.

City expands limits on performers, vendors | StAugustine.com

According to this article you now have to get a permit through the city archaeologist to be able to metal detect in St. Augustine Florida. How long before other areas take on this same ruling?

 

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[CoilFisher]

Well, with shows like American Digger being broadcasted and you see more and more metal detector adverstisements and stories on the news this is bound to happen.
And, I am sure eventually we will all get clobbered by it. I know the County Parks here more or less do not allow it.
However, I would gladly pay a permit fee, and if these companies that sell detectors are smart, they will push Amercian legislation to see the benefit of
permit fees as opposed to banning a pastime.
Of course, I know of several laws unrelated to detecting in this state that were made; that noone ever enforces nor do they care to. Perhaps, invoking the law is only necessary WHEN it is necessary. Food for thought.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Perhaps, invoking the law is only necessary WHEN it is necessary. Food for thought.

You make an interesting point: Some laws are triggered "upon complaint". For example: noise ordinances: There is, in all cities, a certain decibal limit you are not to exceed (music, machinery, etc...) from .... say .... 10pm to 6am. I am all to aware of these laws because I have a street sweeper business. We used to do a lot of shopping centers and industrial parks, factories, etc.... And of course, the sweeper and back-pack blower make noise, that generates complaints. A few times we'd get flack, and the even a decibal meter was brought out on occasion . As a result, we had to re-route several sensitive residential locations, to be done before 10pm curfew. And to put the places out in industrial parts of town, to the later slots ('cuz there's no residentials there to complain about noise).

But think of it: if the industrial areas are ALSO in the city limits, they too are bound by the SAME decibal limit curfews. However, there is no one there to care or complain or be bothered by noise. So you can see, that a law like this, is for application upon actual complaint/nuisance, only THEN does a decibal meter come out. But at no time did the law not exist. Get it?

So too is a lot of laws that people think apply to md'ing: defacement, vandalism, digging, alteration, etc.... They would apply if some authority tells you, in my opinion. To think that they apply ahead of time (that you .... by definition ... "destroy" and "vandalize" things), you might as well give up now, and take up needle-point as your hobby.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

I knew this had to follow, but when I read this article back in January I cringed. No doubt this type of publicity did not help:

Bob Spratley has a lot of secrets.He knows where to find 20 shipwrecks around St. Augustine, he can find gold and silver buried beneath the sands of local beaches, and he discovered one of the sites of the nation’s most notorious slaughters.“He found the Matanzas site, the massacre site,” said John Powell, living history interpreter at the Fountain of Youth. “Bob is beyond a metal detectorist. Bob is touched by God.”Spratley has been hunting with a metal detector for 41 years. Research, skill and maybe a little luck have led him to shipwrecks, Spanish outposts and historical sites that archaeologists wish they knew about....​

MORE: http://m.staugustine.com/news/local-news/2012-01-07/metal-detectorist-finds-rare-treasures-under-sands-st-johns-county

 

[deepskyal]

'Digger' trend worries the professionals | StAugustine.com

Just some news that may shed light on the new rules.

Al

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Al, a thought just occurred to me as I read this link of yours: The gut-instinct reaction of links and news like this, is "we need to fight encroaching laws" right? I mean ever since these shows, and the resulting archaeological back-lash against them, there has been no shortage of reactionary threads by md'r hobbyists, figuring we need "permits" to allow us to continue our hobby, to head-off possible reactionary laws/rules from these shows, etc... And as evidence, they post links like this, with reactions from city officials, archies, etc.... to bolster their proof that we need to "do something".

But this thought occurred to me as I read the link: The ONLY reason we're reading about such things, is because of the publicity this brings, right? In other words, had these 2 shows never come on, then ...... presto, there would not have been this back-lash from archies, and the archie's accompanying encouragements to cities and counties. In other words publicity, visibility, etc... has caused this current rash of ill-wills, right? We would all have been better off if shows like this didn't make us a big red bulls-eye begging for attention and scrutiny, right?

So think about it: this only bolsters what I'm saying, that we md'rs need to do the OPPOSITE of our kneejerk reaction. The knee-jerk reaction being to go out, show up at city and county halls everywhere, asking permission, seeking clarifications, asking for permits to "allow" us, etc... Because, gee, wasn't/isn't this visibility bullseye issue the problem that's bringing this about, TO BEGIN WITH? Like I bet that the average St. Augustine city personnel would never have given the matter a second glance, had he not seen an md'r on the beach, prior to this current flap. But given enough "big red bullseyes", then sure, the "pressing issue must be addressed". Thus my constant preaching for us all to STOP making ourselves an even bigger bullseye, by going and seeking sanctions. It will merely become a self-fulling vicious circle.

So the very fact of the back-lash the show has resulted in, is proof of my very points.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

As for the things the archies say in your link, well go figure: What did you expect an archie to say? I mean, that would be sort of like asking the president of PETA (an animal rights wacko group): "can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a slurpee?". They would scream "NNNEEOOOOHHH, You can be arrested for animal cruelty, your car can be confiscated, you can go to jail, blah blah blah" I mean, sure, what did you expect at PETA wacko to say? So in the same way when I read archie comments like this, I don't give them much weight either, other than to stay clear of wackos! The less they know that I md, the better. In the same way that the less the PETA rep knows I leave pet bunnies in my car while I run into 7-11, the better!

 

[rhino71]

Yep! Here comes the storm for us.

 

[N.J.THer]

I felt a bit compelled to comment on NJ's posts. Once a law is enacted that only allows for hunting with a permit granted by an archaeologist, that is the end of hunting areas that are covered by the law. If you think any archaeologist will ever grant you a permit, you are mistaken. You will walk into that archaeologists office with the best intentions, and a plan that you can't think of any reason it won't get approved, and WHAMO!!!, door will be slammed in your face. I would love to know if there is one person anywhere who received one of these permits from an archaeologist. If it happened, I want to know how it was accomplished.
I have seen this happen already in the finding of prehistoric North American artifacts. We got some bad press with an incident know referred to as "Slack Farm". You can look it up if you want to read more about it, but the basics is that some criminals did some bad things. Everyone got up in arms, and laws started changing. The state of Indiana enacted a very similar sounding law that St. Augustine has back in the early 90's. Guess how permits have been issued since the law was enacted? That's right, the answer is 0.
Granting of permits by archaeologists to satisfy a statute is a dog and pony show show the legislature can say they didn't ban an activity. In practice, no permits will ever be issued.
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.

Hi Jon,
I've worked under permit situations before and the ones I've dealt with gave one to anyone that applied but if you did not abide by the rules you could lose the right to detect and have your permit revoked. If the process to deny a permit was not based on any previous actions I would never agree to that system.

I've also worked with many archeologist under many different situations. Sometimes I would share information I found while I was out at my own sites and sometime I would be invited to their sites. Depending on their site history I might be able to detect and dig or just detect then mark the spot for them to do a formal dig. On their sites I don't keep anything I find I just turn it over to them. I just like the hunt and would rather any historical finds in a museum for others to see or at the very least the data recorded and added to the overall picture of the site.

I've never sold any of my finds...not that there is anything wrong with people that do...I just choose not to.

To date I only had one bad run in with an archeaologist. We had multiple well known archeaologists come to our defense and proved the other archeaologst was in the wrong and we were right. To no fault of our own we made him look a little foolish. I've been to quite a few Archeaolgical lectures where the metal detectorists were formally mentioned in the lecture and thanked on the power point presentation.

There are archeaologists out there that are close minded but there are also detectorist that are just as close minded. There is a middle ground that does require some compromise on both groups parts that we all could live under. I once heard a family court judge make a comment about divorce - He said if both parties leave feeling they lost then he did his job right. This is the same. If done correctly we both may give up something but be better off in the bigger picture.

I love working with them and getting into sites that I would be arrested if I went into them by myself.

NJ

 

[ScubaFinder]

Great post NJ! You are welcome on any of my projects anytime, well said and to the point.

Jason

 

[diggingit]

New york city has required permits for years. still free though i can can see a charge coming.

 

[Graddick]

I'd bet anyone $10 that this ban came from a single rogue MDer who got too close to the Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine, got into an argument with the Park Service people and led to this proposed legislation. I'll bet he even came on this forum and wailed about his oppression under those tyranical "archies".

Stupidity and Hostility: the hallmarks of MD/Archaeologist relations.

 

[goldentruth]

As for myself, I try to help by taking the issues of anti-metal detecting and upcomming bans and laws and I TWEET THEM!
TWEET FREELY & TWEET A LOT! The World then knows along with the law makers & those who try to bust & Steal our rights !!!!! Peace Out!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

graddick, yes, sometimes us md'rs can be our own worst enemy, eh? If some md'rs had a bit of .... uh ... "discretion" on choosing times and places to go, then they wouldn't be such a "bullseye", to begin with, that lead to such rules being dreamed up!

I can think of parks where detecting is allowed (well, no one cares nor has ever said anything). But sure, if you were to go during an archaeologist convention there, or during a concert waltzing over people's beach blankets, then sure: you might inspire someone to "ban" this. I mean, c'mon, if only some md'rs would use a little common sense, and go at low traffic times, don't be in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-body lookie lous are watching, etc.... There's no way to avoid the implicit connotations, so for pete's sake, use a little discretion.

 

[N.J.THer]

Tom makes a good point about using some common sense. To scratch the itch I go metal detecting at lunch time. There are four parks around my work that I can get to and have a decent amount of time to detect then get back to work. Although there are no rules against detecting if I pull up to a park and see the work crew cutting the grass I just move on to a different park. No reason to kick the bee hive.

Now I have been in parks where they came after I was there. Sometimes they will come over to see what I've found but on the rare occasion one will say you can't do that here...usually the crew supervisor. I never argue. I just say that I looked up the regulations and did not see any restriction but I will leave. You will not win if you stay and argue with them and in the long run it can only hurt you.

I had a situation once where i was at a school and an older neighbor came over to say I could not detect there. I told him that there were no rules against it and that I'm actually cleaning up the area but if it would make him happy I would leave. He said it would so I left. He was also complaining about the kids playing football and tearing up the grass...again this was a school yard where kids are expected to play. Just not worth the fight.

NJ

 

[N.J.THer]

Great post NJ! You are welcome on any of my projects anytime, well said and to the point.

Jason

Thanks Jason

And if you are ever up in the NJ area and we have an non-paying dig going on I will try to get you in as a guest. If it is a paid dig due to insurance rules we can't have you on the site.

NJ

 

[LM]

I'd bet anyone $10 that this ban came from a single rogue MDer who got too close to the Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine, got into an argument with the Park Service people and led to this proposed legislation. I'll bet he even came on this forum and wailed about his oppression under those tyranical "archies".

Stupidity and Hostility: the hallmarks of MD/Archaeologist relations.

Haha, that's too funny.

I'm a St. Aug native- I've posted on here a few times about my MD'ing capers growing up there. The Castillo was one place that I just always intuitively knew better than to try, but I for darn sure went everyplace else Whoever that guy was, he was VERY lucky. People have been hauled in front of Federal Judges and sentenced for taking MDs to federally protected historic sites. He's damn lucky they didn't arrest him on the spot, confiscate his machine and charge him in Federal Court.

I haven't had any Ranger encounters at Anastasia SP in years. The only time I ever got any guff from them was cutting across the dunes to fish behind the island in the ICW. Back when you could drive, behind the dunes up by the inlet was a prime place to get mussels. I have MD'd the north end pretty extensively (and recently). It's a damn far walk up there- 3 1/2 miles- so be in shape. It was an artifact dead-zone, but the old towel line from back when you could still drive up there yielded a buck or so in clad, dated in the 70's and 80's.

As far as getting a permit, it ain't gunna happen there in St. Aug.
DiverDown is absolutely right about the city archie. Anyone who's offering an opinion on this matter from afar is speaking out of their ass.

There have been a few vocal 'academic' douchebags on the St. Augustine Record website who are quick to start blathering their standard book, whenever an artifact related issue comes up. These people, plus the recent MDing TV shows, contributed a false hysteria to the narrative about artifacts, which resulted in a crappy ordinance being passed.

I really don't think we're missing out on much, though. I've MD'd all the places in St. Aug that you all probably dream about (a few I won't even mention) and didn't have much luck. The bad news is, even if I did, I wouldn't say anything about it, so I may be lying

 

[JaxPirate]

I am from Jacksonville, FL, about 35 minutes north of ST Aug, I just detected that beach on Thurs 31 May, I found the usualy pocket change, 2 others were out there with detectors also. I have detected Vilano beach also with not much result. I just got off the found with the Sherriffs office for tha county to ask them about there parks, the officer mentioned you cant detect the beach which shocked me since I just hit it the other day, anyway she said go for in the parks of the area I asked about which is further west of St Augustine, but sherriffs in Florida cover cities and counties. I did find this on the St Aug website, link below, that explains the permit deal. I recently saw an article about someone who found tons of relics and coins but wont reveal where. Second link. So tomorrow or Tues I

FAQ | City of St. Augustine Archaeology Program

Metal detectorist finds rare treasures under sands | StAugustine.com Mobile

 

[Charles]

Here is the wording of the actual code.

Sec. 6-7. - Excavations on public property.

No individual shall be allowed to use a probe, metal detector or any other device to search or excavate for artifacts on public property, nor can any individual remove artifacts from public property without the written permission of the city. Furthermore, no disturbances or construction activities shall be authorized within properties belonging to the city, including public streets and rights-of-way, without a city right-of-way permit and without such archaeology efforts as may be addressed by this chapter. Any proposed archaeological work and delays relative to a disturbance or construction work shall be in accordance with provisions of this chapter relative to major and minor disturbances in Archaeological Zones I, II and III.​

(Code 1964, § 5½-7)​

I guess you would have to define artifacts. Said you can't use a detector to search excavate for artifacts. Might be able to search for coins in a park or ring on the beach depending on when and if a coin or ring is an artifact?

 

[LM]

I just got off the found with the Sherriffs office for tha county to ask them about there parks, the officer mentioned you cant detect the beach which shocked me since I just hit it the other day

Ask her to cite you the ordinance. When she does (St. Augustine City), ask her which beaches that applies to.

Seriously, cops have a bad habit of fabricating imaginary laws. If you point out that they're incorrect and stand your ground, they'll arrest you for 'disturbing the peace' or 'resisting arrest without violence' or whatever other bullshit catch-all charge they have in their 'respect mah' authoritah' arsenal.

The good news is, you'd win a nice settlement if they actually did arrest you for MD'ing in Anastasia State Park.

Seriously, one of the more obnoxious problems we face in a bureaucratic nightmare country is that the people we trust to enforce the laws are almost never bright enough to really understand them. Lawyers who spend 8 years in school hardly do.

 

[LM]

I guess you would have to define artifacts.

THAT is the kind of 'technicality dancing' that will get you in trouble.
Artifacts are well defined. Coins, rings and anything else made by human beings would qualify, regardless of age.