Provenance

[mainejman]

Trying to understand preserving provenance.What im getting here is its preserving a particular pieces history and ownership.In most cases havent they pretty much already been documented by theyre particular type. By archeologists over the last hundred years.Documentation of ownership seems like the least important thing to me.With Some of these pieces being thousands of years old the time they spend out of theyre original place of origin Does not even seem significant in the big picture.IMO

 

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[quito]

It's not about ownership at all, to me anyway. Documenting where it was originally found, and if known, the finders name and date of find. Is most important imho. Type not so much, but sometimes typing is difficult and appreciated....

 

[mainejman]

Thanks quito for your patience with me on this topic.I think it is a great option to have.Never personally been around a coa'd artifact except maybe museums.

 

[GatorBoy]

There's a lot of talk here recently about how important some people believe a certificate of authenticity is to them.... The idea that it is very important to preserve provenance to them.
I think it probably goes without saying that the most important artifacts to those individuals are the ones they personally found in there home area.... That brings me to the question do these people get COA's on their personal finds?
I know I don't... I never intend to sell... Instead I document the pertinent information and keep finds together by site... And plan on making a.very well documented donation to a local organization at some point.
Getting someone's opinion on and artifacts authenticity can happen tomorrow or 100 years from now that makes no difference especially after something has spent sometimes thousands of years in the ground already.
So if the paperwork is not associated with buying and selling then surely there should be likely more documentation associated with personal finds then the others.. For some reason I doubt that is the case.
Sounds good though.
Once an artifact has been separated from first ... Its original location as part of a site collection then as often happens removed from its original state of origin... It's essentially become completely isolated and its value at least archaeologically has all but disappeared.
At that point... and this is my opinion there's not much left except the novelty and the value of it as a conversation piece.

 

[Get-the-point]

Provenance keeps the history intact. If you go without at least writing where it was found then you are wrecking anything that can be traced later. Although you make sense in some parts Gator a novelty or conversation piece it will never be. A artifact found begins a story. One which will one day possibly create a pattern. All these locations of specific finds will one day tell a more accurate story then those stories we have today. Your young i get it but the fact is the story is still not complete. Through education we preserve artifacts for future generations! By not preserving this we are failing them.

 

[GatorBoy]

Here is a for instance.
Say you go out tomorrow and you find a beautiful dove tail... Well the first thing you did is removed it from its context... 99 percent of the potential story to be told by that just went away.
What now could that isolated piece possibly tell anybody about anything at anytime in the future?
Haven't the only facts about that piece except for what its made of and how its been chipped now turned into hear say?
I'm not trying to diminish the respect and beautiful connection to the past that "Dove tail" represents here at all..it just seems to me that this is the definition of ( isolated find) and the crux of artifact collection as a hobby as our laws in the United States defines it.

 

[quito]

Here is a for instance.
Say you go out tomorrow and you find a beautiful dove tail... Well the first thing you did is removed it from its context... 99 percent of the potential story to be told by that just went away.
What now could that isolated piece possibly tell anybody about anything at anytime in the future?

Not trying to start any argument, looking for clarification though because you can't have it both ways.......What happened to the soil currents you told us about months ago? You know, the currents that moved things through the earth like water currents, only slower. You tried to tell us that nothing was where is was originally put because of those. And it was not that long ago, remember? I do.

 

[GatorBoy]

I spoke of certain situations with specific conditions... If you're going to even vaguely quote me you should try to keep it accurate

 

[GatorBoy]

Myself like anyone with a little sense would never use words like.. Always.. everything... never... nothing..ect... Those are absolutes.

 

[quito]

I spoke of certain situations with specific conditions... If you're going to even vaguely quote me you should try to keep it accurate

Only after some of the others challenged your initial broad generalizations for quite a while did you go to that position in retreat. When I quote you, you will see these " when I start and stop.

 

[quito]

Myself like anyone with a little sense would never use words like.. Always.. everything... never... nothing..ect... Those are absolutes.

LOL, no, you never would, would you?

Everyone knows there are absolutely NO absolutes.

 

[GatorBoy]

Only after some of the others challenged your initial broad generalizations for quite a while did you go to that position in retreat. When I quote you, you will see these " when I start and stop.

Would you like to stay on the subject of this thread? And not make it about me?
Do you have any certificates of authenticity on your personal finds?
You can start a new thread on drift displacement if you would like

 

[quito]

I would like to stay on topic, on all the threads. Let me remind you who it was that steered the topic to "context of the find" I can see why you want to get back on topic now though.

I would even like to make a deal with you. How about when you ask me a question I will answer it honestly and to the best of my ability, I won't ignore it. And you give me the same courtesy. Deal?

I'll go first just in case you want to accept.

Yes, I do have a few. Go ahead, ask another.

 

[GatorBoy]

Everything I spoke of lent itself directly to provence which happens to be the title of this thread... I have a suggestion for a better "deal" since it's unnecessary to narrow anything down to a particular person when speaking about these things how about we just use the information and leave our statements general.
I wasn't speaking about you directly to you or asking anything directly from you... So why not just offer what information you have.

 

[quito]

Hmm. And here I thought you asked me questions often.

 

[GatorBoy]

Can't remember a single one.. That had to do with facts and information.

 

[Bum Luck]

There's a lot of talk here recently about how important some people believe a certificate of authenticity is to them.... The idea that it is very important to preserve provenance to them.
I think it probably goes without saying that the most important artifacts to those individuals are the ones they personally found in there home area.... That brings me to the question do these people get COA's on their personal finds?
I know I don't... I never intend to sell... Instead I document the pertinent information and keep finds together by site... And plan on making a.very well documented donation to a local organization at some point.
Getting someone's opinion on and artifacts authenticity can happen tomorrow or 100 years from now that makes no difference especially after something has spent sometimes thousands of years in the ground already.
So if the paperwork is not associated with buying and selling then surely there should be likely more documentation associated with personal finds then the others.. For some reason I doubt that is the case.
Sounds good though.
Once an artifact has been separated from first ... Its original location as part of a site collection then as often happens removed from its original state of origin... It's essentially become completely isolated and its value at least archaeologically has all but disappeared.
At that point... and this is my opinion there's not much left except the novelty and the value of it as a conversation piece.

OK, not picking a fight at all:

I primarily hunt plowed fields; there's bound to be a little lateral displacement from agricultural activities, but worst is the potential for damage. I shudder to think of a great point that next year gets hit by the plow or disc and breaks. It's gone forever.

The top 7 or so inches of tilled soil has lost any context that could be there.

I do keep records in the form of maps, and keep the map and finds together. As a matter of fact, I usually collect everything - chips, broken points, and all; since I think that could give someone a snapshot of what went on there. It's probably not more than 1/200th of the lithics, so it's not like I'm removing a lot of context, but I think there's a statistical value in the bag I end up with - labeled and with a sketch map. Rock types, heat treated or not, skill in working; it's all important. Good finds I use a GPS and get a coordinate pair for them.

I would argue that it's rescue archaeology of a sort. Others are collecting and that's being lost. Plows will break the points and scatter the pieces. I've never found all or both the pieces of a broken point. There's a value in that; I can't see the difference between that and what an archie would do, except my maps are better. And I've been there, and they likely won't be.

I don't dig context stuff; only surface collect. And I don't sell.

So then, is that an improvement over casual collecting? The only difference I can see is a degree in anthro and the bags are in a different basement. Eventually, they will be in a museum of some sort. Or, they can be re-scattered and plowed back and forth again.

 

[quito]

Sounds to me like there are at least 3 classes of artifact hunters, guys that surface hunt plowed field and gravel bars. Hunting for and often finding things out of context for reasons beyond their control. One end of the spectrum.

Then you have the archeologists that painstakingly slowly removing layer after layer expertly documenting and recording all discernable evidence. These guys are usually dealing with items found in context. The other end of the spectrum

Then you have the guys one popular writer I've read termed archeoterrorist.
These would be guys who dig up a whole bunch of stuff possibly yet in context, and do a half baked job of record keeping if any at all. Often they are just concerned with getting as much out of the ground as quickly as possible to show off a days finds.

I realize the Archy's can't dig everything and I my self don't have a problem with digging or diggers in general, Just the self righteous ones.

 

[GatorBoy]

Or place them on the internet for sale... Which in my personal opinion was and is the death knell to the freedom to collect surface found artifacts in several states.. Including my own and I'm sure there will be more states to follow.
That's why I feel such bad juju when it comes to attaching dollar signs to historical artifacts

 

[Get-the-point]

See you say they are removed from context. Then you say there is no significance to them as it is here-say. Then i think of the detective who uses soil analysis to try and find the location of a murder victim or the location of a crime. Soil analysis is often used in the solving of a crime. Now since authentic points will retain some of the debris it once laid in, do you not think they can be pin-pointed where found by soil analysis? If a thorough map is laid out of soils samples one day, do you not think that the land to which the artifact was found can be possibly located. Yes it is all incumbent to that type of data one day yet the possibility does remain that it could happen and that is when a artifact can be typed to a location or State. Still important in my book. As far as pricing artifacts and your feelings towards that. The reason for a applied price is for insurance purposes and possible sale one day. You find that priceless Suwannee or Clovis in your area and have it in your collection and someone steals it or a catastrophe happens and it is destroyed. I already know your answer to that one.....but i'll leave it for you to write it up. My point is provenance will always serve a reason in aiding the validation of the artifacts found. Future generations will appreciate the work we do today preserving historical finds no matter how little they are!