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  1. #16
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    I am not sure why I didn’t start with the title.

    El derrotero de los minas oro -

    “The course of the Apache mines.”
    However, derrotero has several translations - “course” in nautical terms, “direction”, “way”.

    Here I think that derrotero is used as an idiom. It’s listed as one.
    Which would translate to:

    “The hidden treasure of the Apache mines.”

    Which makes much more sense when thinking about the complete map.
    I find that fascinating.


    Attachment 1754235
    Hal

    IMHO, this map is not for any treasure which came from the gold mines of the Apache land. But you can call it like you want if this excites you.
    The word " derrotero " is for a course which someone has to follow in regards to find what he is looking for. The words " Guarda el sombrero " and " Pasaran la trabajadora " ( the next up text in the map) are advices which prompt to do them in the way.
    Last edited by markmar; Sep 18, 2019 at 03:58 PM.
    Hal Croves likes this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  2. #17
    us
    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    Taken from A Dictionary, Spanish and English and English and Spanish
    A. Millar, J. Nourse, and P. Vaillant, 1763


    A "fea chart".... might mean “a small chart


    Attachment 1754253
    Fea - "few" or "little"

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PF Fea.jpg 
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ID:	1754258
    Last edited by Hal Croves; Sep 18, 2019 at 04:02 PM.
    KANACKI and embrym like this.

  3. #18
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    hal...depends on what you want to detect...its best to get and all around machine that will work for prospecting..coins or relics...whites mxt...fisher gold bug pro..tesoro lobo super traq are all excellent machines
    Minelab makes some good detectors too. While there are definitely differences in detectors, I've come to believe a person with a significant amount of practice and experience with a detector is superior to a novice with an expensive detector. Moral of the story, get a mid range one from any reputable mfg. that is supposed to do what you want to do and practice, practice, practice. Dig everything and get your ears trained and it doesn't take too long before you can tell a good tone from a bad one. I still dig most everything.
    Hal Croves and dredgernaut like this.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  4. #19
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    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Hal

    IMHO, this map is not for any treasure which came from the gold mines of the Apache land. But you can call it like you want if this excites you.
    The word " derrotero " is for a course which someone has to follow in regards to find what he is looking for. The words " Guarda el sombrero " and " Pasaran la trabajadora " ( the next up text in the map) are advices which prompt to do them in the way.
    Problem with your explanation is that there really is no described or noted course to follow. There might be a small, obscure trail indicated but it is a short one, if it is one.
    I think that the map is meant to be used to locate a treasure trove and secondly, mines.

    I never question a persons beliefs, only their declarations.
    But yes, the Peralta-Fish Map excites me, as the "king of the Spanish-Mexican maps" why wouldn't it?
    Last edited by Hal Croves; Sep 18, 2019 at 06:22 PM.

  5. #20
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2017
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    Taken from A Dictionary, Spanish and English and English and Spanish
    A. Millar, J. Nourse, and P. Vaillant, 1763


    A "fea chart".... might mean “a small chart


    Attachment 1754253
    Hal, looks like "s" and "f" were both used interchangeably on that page for "s"...there is one above it that says "courfe" for "course"...it was probably meant to be "sea chart".

  6. #21

    Dec 2006
    3,740
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    Originally Posted by Hal Croves
    Taken from A Dictionary, Spanish and English and English and Spanish
    A. Millar, J. Nourse, and P. Vaillant, 1763

    A "fea chart".... might mean “a small chart”


    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Hal, looks like "s" and "f" were both used interchangeably on that page for "s"...there is one above it that says "courfe" for "course"...it was probably meant to be "sea chart".
    something to do with a long s, are there more use, of a long s looks like a f on the map
    that long s was used in handwritten text up to mid 1800s, per wiki
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s...in_handwriting

  7. #22
    us
    Sep 2010
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    markmar,

    If these dashes represent a trail, it should continue, showing the way to each mine. It doesn't which tells me that derrotero is not being used to mean "course". "fea chart' (Little chart) or the "hidden treasure" makes sense.

    Dots on maps, cave or mine treasure or mineral

    Red
    dashed line: I see them more as dashes which would suggest a trail. This trail leading from Zlanapah (the bend) on the Rio Salado, now Canyon Lake, to an area near the intersection of two major canyons.

    Green square - appears to be a P. (Mahan's book) = Padre.

    Blue circle - half circle?.... could mean cave.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Zlanapah.jpg 
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ID:	1754300
    Hillbilly Prince and embrym like this.

  8. #23
    Charter Member
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by cw0909 View Post
    Originally Posted by Hal Croves
    Taken from A Dictionary, Spanish and English and English and Spanish
    A. Millar, J. Nourse, and P. Vaillant, 1763

    A "fea chart".... might mean “a small chart”




    something to do with a long s, are there more use, of a long s looks like a f on the map
    that long s was used in handwritten text up to mid 1800s, per wiki
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s...in_handwriting
    Thanks CW...seems I should have remembered what a "long S" is ?

    According to the rules for use of the long "S", it fits perfectly...

    " The long s (ſ) is an archaic form of the lower case letter s. It replaced a single s ... at the beginning ... of a word (e.g. "ſinfulneſs" for "sinfulness" and "ſucceſsful" for "successful") "

    Hal, the page from the old dictionary you posted seems to follow these rules exactly. IMO the rules seem to make clear that the definition of "derrotero" would have been "Sea Chart".

    Since this is an English dictionary, it's possible that the adjective "Sea" could have been too narrow. Perhaps a Spanish dictionary from the same time-frame might allow for more wide use, such as "Sea or Land Chart". Might be something to look at.

    And, since I'm going there, I might add that the Fish Map is actually a map...not a chart...IMO this might be one more example of what Wayne Tuttle described as "crappy white-guy Spanish" on these Superstitions area treasure maps. Or, maybe the terms map and chart were used interchangeably in the Spanish language back then...I don't know.

  9. #24

    May 2019
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    [QUOTE=Hal Croves;6302916]Problem with your explanation is that there really is no described or noted course to follow. There might be a small, obscure trail indicated but it is a short one, if it is one.
    I think that the map is meant to be used to locate a treasure trove and secondly, mines.

    I never question a persons beliefs, only their declarations.
    But yes, the Peralta-Fish Map excites me, as the "king of the Spanish-Mexican maps" why wouldn't it?[/QThe

    IMO King of the Spanish -Mexican maps. Yes.
    Oroblanco and Hal Croves like this.

  10. #25

    May 2019
    204
    187 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    Problem with your explanation is that there really is no described or noted course to follow. There might be a small, obscure trail indicated but it is a short one, if it is one.
    I think that the map is meant to be used to locate a treasure trove and secondly, mines.

    I never question a persons beliefs, only their declarations.
    But yes, the Peralta-Fish Map excites me, as the "king of the Spanish-Mexican maps" why wouldn't it?

    Yes, a very small narrow pathway, that leads beyond the mine.
    weekender likes this.

  11. #26

    Dec 2006
    3,740
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    i see, so the long s came from the Dictionary in Hal posted
    not the map
    i missed the Dictionary img, b/c for some reason Hal font
    is real small, when i zoomed to read post, must have went
    on by the Dictionary img ,font looks like this small font
    PotBelly Jim likes this.

  12. #27
    us
    Fortune Favors the BOLD, while Karma Favors the Wise!

    Jan 2006
    Arizona Vagrant
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    hal...depends on what you want to detect...its best to get and all around machine that will work for prospecting..coins or relics...whites mxt...fisher gold bug pro..tesoro lobo super traq are all excellent machines

    I wouldn't recommend the Gold Bug Pro. If you're gonna do any prospecting, get the Gold Bug II. Best there is for small stuff that's shallow.

    Mike
    Hal Croves likes this.
    "You wouldn't like me when I'm mad, because I back up my rage with hard facts and logic!" - The Credible Hulk

    ............... ALWAYS REMEMBER: When you make a typo, the errorists win...................Aloha Snackbar!

  13. #28
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    I wouldn't recommend the Gold Bug Pro. If you're gonna do any prospecting, get the Gold Bug II. Best there is for small stuff that's shallow.

    Mike
    i have both bug pro and bug2....the pro will actually detect a smaller piece of gold than the bug 2..it also is a pretty good coin and relic machine
    Hal Croves likes this.

  14. #29
    us
    Fortune Favors the BOLD, while Karma Favors the Wise!

    Jan 2006
    Arizona Vagrant
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    i have both bug pro and bug2....the pro will actually detect a smaller piece of gold than the bug 2..it also is a pretty good coin and relic machine
    You had better go test that! Before I got my GBII, I looked at the Pro. Only 19kHz. Not a high enough Freq for really small stuff. GBII is 71kHz. That is why you basically have to scrub the coil in the dirt. That high a freq doesn't penetrate very deep, but will find flakes nothing else will. GB Pro is a better "all around" detector, but GBII will kill it for little stuff. THAT is why Fisher still sells the GBII. Even with manual ground balance, I'll take the GBII over the GB Pro>

    Mike
    "You wouldn't like me when I'm mad, because I back up my rage with hard facts and logic!" - The Credible Hulk

    ............... ALWAYS REMEMBER: When you make a typo, the errorists win...................Aloha Snackbar!

  15. #30
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    You had better go test that! Before I got my GBII, I looked at the Pro. Only 19kHz. Not a high enough Freq for really small stuff. GBII is 71kHz. That is why you basically have to scrub the coil in the dirt. That high a freq doesn't penetrate very deep, but will find flakes nothing else will. GB Pro is a better "all around" detector, but GBII will kill it for little stuff. THAT is why Fisher still sells the GBII. Even with manual ground balance, I'll take the GBII over the GB Pro>

    Mike
    mike...i have tested it quite a bit...actually mine isn't the pro... it is the gold bug SE....it was the one just before the pro......they had a problem with the SE so they stopped making it and came out with the pro...same detector..different sticker..lol..the SE had a problem..it was super hot on gold but wouldn't hit good on silver...so the scrapped it and came out with the pro..they fixed the silver problem but it lost some sensitivity on gold..i like the gold bug 2 but it is so sensitive when you get in hot ground you have to turn the sensitivity down to 4 or 5 to make it stable

 

 
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