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[the blindbowman]

Oro as far as i knew the papal order ended near the brith of the order of christ. the piont is there may have been jesuits in the 1700 but as far as i know they were not papal order ..

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

I can assure you that the Society of Jesus was operating under permission of the Vatican (and Pope) in the Spanish colonies from 1550 when they first landed in the New World (first "Reduction" founded in 1606) until expelled by the Portuguese in 1758 and the Spanish in 1767 and the French in 1764, though some missions continued in Canada until at least 1791.

Would an (almost) admission of guilt do to "convict" the Jesuit fathers of having been operating mines in the New World? Here is an extract:

You have given me to understand that you would like to know what is being done here in canada. I shall endeavor to satisfy you in a few words, for the messenger who is to convey my letter to Quebec is [Page 37] hurrying me, and it is the last chance I shall have this year. The Sioux, who so ruthlessly murdered our beloved and amiable J. P. [Aulneau], have since then been so often defeated by the french that they have finally sued for peace. This has been concluded with them, as it is feared that we shall soon have war with our neighbors, the English. Monsieur de la Verandrie has discovered a numerous nation of pale-faced Savages, 30 leagues from fort St. Charles, Had it not been for the death of our dear martyr, these savages, whom he is said to have met with during his expeditions, would already have received the light of the Gospel, for they are very gentle and amenable to reason. An inexhaustible mine of copper has been discovered on the shores of lake Superior, 700 leagues from here; but the profits will never be very great, owing to the immense expense of transporting the copper. The iron mines between Quebec and Montreal, which have been worked for a few years past, are more profitable, and begin to give good returns. This last spring we sent out an army against the chicachias, who 3 years ago burned to death the Jesuit Father Sennat. Father de la bretonniere accompanied the 300 Iroquois from our village who take part in the war. Since then I have been alone in this mission, burdened with an inconceivable amount of work.

Mademoiselle, My dearest Mother and Sister in Jesus Christ,
Your very humble
and obedient servant,
NAU, of the society of Jesus.
Sault St. Louis,
October 12, 1739.

(from Two letters from Father Luc François Nau to
Madame Aulneau.)
Source: The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents
http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/relations_69.html

I put the most interesting statements in bold to point them up, first the mention of the copper mine and iron mining, which the good father describes as "profitable" without directly stating that the Society is operating them it is certainly hinted, and that one of the fathers is out on a mission of WAR, hardly what one would expect from a missionary.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

If that is your proof, no need to look any farther. Those kind of "admissions" can be found throughout the many Jesuits accounts which are available. Mineral wealth was important to both saint and sinner. Some kind of economy was necessary in each and every mission and around every mission.

It's hardly shocking that a Jesuit priest traveled with an army that included Indian allies. That was common practice as far back in New World history as you care to search.

Like every treasure hunter, such as myself, we tend to read the maximum benefits to our beliefs into every Innocent word. Your last quotes are such a case, IMHO.

Lamar has asked for one document showing Jesuit mining took place in the New World. He gets a factual statements from a Jesuit priest about copper and iron mines in Canada.

All arguments explaining why there are no documents boil down to this: The Jesuits lied in all of their letters and journals or The Society Of Jesus took all of their writings and censored every mention of mining out of them. The Vatican/Popes did the same thing.

The argument keeps coming up, that the King was mad at the Jesuits because their shipments of gold and silver were not up to the level he believed he should be getting. If that is true, where is the one (1) document from the archives in Spain showing a single shipment of gold or silver......ever being received from the Jesuits in the New World??

The problem is, there are no documents of any kind, anywhere. This from a people who were the most prolific record keepers of their time.

In closing, let me explain why the Jesuits were expel ed from the New World: They were powerful.
They kept the mine owners from making slaves of the Indians. They were forced to pay them for their labor. In doing that, they made powerful/rich enemy's who convinced the king that the Jesuits were usurping his own power. For the most part, this was accomplished with lies.

I once believe this fable, stronger than you do now. The search for Jesuit treasure has been going on, unabated, since the day of their expulsion. To date, not one reliable piece of evidence has been found. At the same time, many people have presented "manufactured" evidence which, if tested, turns out to be fake. No test were ever done on the bars pictured in Mike's post.

I must respectfully disagree with most of your respectful disagreements of Lamar's points. Without these disagreements, the truth will never find the light of day.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Actually the term "peseta" just means "little bit" or "little piece". The bar bearing the word Peseta is the smaller of the two. Has nothing to do with the Spanish Monetary Unit you mention. Most of the cast gold ingots of this type, are in two sizes; 2" X 4" and 2" X 2". Look at the B&W pics of the other ingots found in the mid1980s. These bear the Cross and "V" of the Jesuits. I know more than a couple of people who have known the man in the pictures for many years. You can take my word that he would not have had the funds to fabricate 287 pounds of gold bars.

Also, if you look closely, you will see the name ALTAR on the 'peseta bar". If you look at the B&W picture, you will see the name ALTAR on several of them as well. That stands for the Altar Mission (between the Oquitoa and Tubutama Missions). If you look closely again, you will see the "X" between the two Jesuit Mission Symbols (Cross over the circle with "V"). Remember that ALTAR is between two other missions ("X" marks the spot so to speak).

Of your possible conclusions, I would tend to agree with #2. I doubt Kino would have knowingly had his name put on something that might have landed him in the Hot Seat.

Is it possible that the bars were faked? Absolutely. The table full of silver; possible. The two small ingots; possible. The large haul (B&W Pics); nope. Like I stated previously, Ron didn't have the money to manufacture 287 pounds of gold ingots.

The argument keeps coming up, that the King was mad at the Jesuits because their shipments of gold and silver were not up to the level he believed he should be getting. If that is true, where is the one (1) document from the archives in Spain showing a single shipment of gold or silver......ever being received from the Jesuits in the New World?Huh?

The problem is, there are no documents of any kind, anywhere. This from a people who were the most prolific record keepers of their time.

Joe,

Who keeps making THAT argument? Certainly not any knowledgeable person that I know. Most people who believe in Jesuit Mining believe that the Jesuits considered God's Law superior to King's Law, and felt that their tributes should go to Rome and not Seville. The results of their mining went overland via the Matamoros area to the coast, and on to Rome. The table full of silver ingots were said to have come from the massacre of one such mule train shipment.

Your own argument about the ingots being pay for goods and services, only goes to prove the Jesuits were dishonest in their dealings with the King of Spain. The Jesuits (beginning in 1697) were given free reign in Pimeria Alta for 20 years. All the Indians they converted were exempt from the mandatory servitude that was forced upon all the natives otherwise. In return for all these freedoms, they were precluded from engaging in ANY money making ventures (including mining, raising cattle and crops to sell, gambling, etc).

Lamar,

I can't speak intelligently regarding Jesuit Markings in Central and South America. I have not studied any markings in those regions.

I will say that I have seen a ton of people who claim to show gen-u-wine je-zhyoo-whit tre-zhur simbuls. I won't name any names. The greatest majority of them are pure BS. There are a few that may be something (but could also be Spanish). I have seen precious few actual Jesuit anythings.

Let's start with a quote from Professor W. Wrightson who was the General Agent for the Aztec Syndicate Mining Group. He was exploring the Santa Cruz River Valley looking for good mining sites. Now, I would think that a Mining Syndicate General Agent would be pretty well versed in most all aspects of mining operations. Pretty obvious to me. Let's hear what he says about one of the things he found when he visited the Mission Ruins at Tumacacori in 1860 (it was long abandoned by then):

"To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used."

Furnaces with slag are not indicative of lime or brick burning pits as stated by the NPS (National Park Service).

This quote is taken directly from the National Park Service Website on the Tumacacori Mission. You can read the full article here:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/pinkley/pinkley_tuma/sec1.htm


Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The fabulous village of Paititi has been *discovered*? This is quite a claim, in light of the fact that not a single structure has yet to be photographed, nor has a single artifact as yet been uncovered. Yet the lost city has been discovered? Here's an interesting statement from the link which was posted:

"Palkiewicz said he had found traces of pre-Inca constructions, which indicate that the Incas had only begun to colonize the area shortly before arrival of the Spanish conquistadors."

From what we know of the Incas, their expansion was about 150 years old by the time the first Conquistadores set foot on the continent of America. In that 150 year timespan, the Inca went from a very small, localized tribe to one which conquered practically all of South America. This feat is amazing in itself and it must have been a daunting undertaking for the conquerors. Yet, here we have a *supposed* settlement, which is a mere 10 days walk from the Incan captiol of Cuzco, and this as yet unknown and unamed pre-Incan tribe lived right in the shadow of the Incan capitol without having been conquered by the single largest tribe in existance in South America during that time? Doubtful, highly doubtful.

It seems that every time someone uncovers a village of major or minor importance, the world instantly screams "Paititi has been discovered!" You should have heard the uproar when Machu Picchu was discovered. So just calm down, everyone. Remember, newspapers print articles in order to SELL newspapers, so the more sensational they can write an article, the more newspaper that are sold. When NatGeo or another reputable scientific organization states that Paititi has been discoevered then it's time to sit up and take a real interest.
I know what PESETA means. I happen to be fluent in BOTH Castillian AND Catalan Spanish, and it means exactly what I stated previously. PESETA is the old monetary unit used in Spain until the Euro came into existance, in 2002. The word PECETA, which is NOT Castillian Spanish, rather it's Catalan, means something small in nature or in stature. I should know, that is where my family is from. I used to live there also. I can speak the language.
However, no matter what PESETA means, it still does not explain the fact that the word PESETA was completely UNKNOWN in Castillian Spanish before 1868. Period. I explained how the word came to be. It was't until 1868 that the word PESETA even existed. Before 1868 the word PESETA did not exist. The word was *coined* to distinguish Spains' new monetary unit from the older monetary unit, the Peso, after Spain joined the Latin Monetary Union in 1868. Before this time the word did NOT exist in Castillian Spanish in any form. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Why would anyone take actual gold and silver bullion and cast them into false ingots? For the antiquity value, naturally. Gold and silver bullion becomes many times higher than it's spot value if it can be proven to have come from a reliable collectable source. This is a HUGE problem with the Atocha wreck. It seems that there are always *authentic* coins and other artifacts being sold which reputedly came from the Atocha, complete with supporting documentation, all of which is false.
You take a person who is as poor as a church mouse, fabricate some *authentic Spanish missionary* ingots, have this person *discover* the ingots and VOILA! You are in business!
The "V" on the ingots is not a Jesuit initial either. The letters S-I are the classical initials of the Society of Jesus. In Latin, they abbreviate the words "Societas Iesu" which translates into the Society of Jesus. After the early 1900s they have since started using the initials S-J which is more understandable to lay people.
The initials SF on the ingots most likely were cast to add an air of authenticity to them and they most likely were cast to abbreviate the name "San Francisco" meaning Saint Francis Xavier, the co-founder of the Jesuit order. The same can also be applied to the letter X, being Saint Francis Xaviers' last name. Both the V and the X could also have been used as the Roman numerals 5 and 10 respectively, as the letters are cast in classical Latin block script. Or, the letter V could have been used to represent the last name VARGAS, which is prominently cast on many of the ingots in question.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Now, for some facts about the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits) and their existence and the work in the New World. The Jesuits were sent to the New World under edict from the Kin of Spain for the dual purpose of converting the natives to Christianity and to provide for the spiritual needs of the newly arrived colonists. The colonists, who were in fact from a very low class of people in Spain, did not have many spiritual needs which needed tending to, however.
Before one can attempt to understand the Jesuits part in the colonization of the New World, one must first understand who the colonests were and in order to understand what sort of people the colonists were, one needs to examine the fuedal Spanish system which governed Spain and all of Her possessions during the time in question. The Renascence period was springing up all over Europe, however both Spain and Portugal were still firmly caught in the grips of the Medieval fuedal system and it would be another 300 years before the old political system would be replaced with the modern political system which we know today. The Spanish Inquision was already in full swing by the time Columbus first set foot on the shores of the New World, with accusations and counter-accusations of heresy being fired across the realm like bolts from a crossbow.
Europe was becoming a very small place and with the sudden population spurt, expansion was needed. Then along came Columbus and his tales of new lands on the other side of the world. After the first Conquistadores returned to Spain, bearing all manner of precious cargos, imaginations were fueled and in short order, Spain had an entire legion of colonists, just itching for the chance to settle this fantastic new territory.
These new colonists were not from old, staid families of Spain, however. The colonials were in fact from very poor families, without wealth or influence and it was because of this that these colonists were willing to brave the perilous journey across the ocean, and to battle strange natives in order to attain some measure of wealth and stature. And so, they ventured forth to points unknown, in order that they might better their lots in life.
Upon arrival in the New World, those which survived the journey found themselves gazing at a land which seemed to stretch on forever, teeming with all manner of wealth and possibilities. These lower class, uneducated colonists didn't require much to fuel their imaginations and so they set out to make their fortunes.
These uneducated colonists soon found themselves needing a labor force in order to fulfill their dreams, and so they promptly enslaved the natives and forced them to work in the mines and on the plantations, to death. The colonists did not bother to feed nor care for their new slaves in any manner whatsoever, and natives were quite plentiful during the early days and so they simply chained them together and worked them until they died of starvation, exposure, disease and exhaustion.
When the Jesuits arrived in the New World they are appalled at the conditions which the colonists had subjected the natives to and they quickly began to establish missions and convert the native population to Christianity. The conversion of the natives was not so much for the saving of their souls, rather it was for the saving of their lives. Once the natives became converts, the Jesuit brothers successfully argued that it was strictly against Roman Catholic dogma for one Christian to enslave another and therefore the converts could not be turned into slaves.
As quickly as the colonists attempted to enslave the natives, so the Jesuits established missions over the entire width and breadth of the New World, converting as many natives as possible. This angered the new colonists to no end and made matters much worse for them. Not only were the Jesuits bent on establishing missions and converting the native populace to Christianity, they also were doing the unthinkable. They were EDUCATING the natives. It's part of the Jesuit doctrine to educate people and this is something which they continue doing today. The education of the natives was just too much for the colonists to bear and so they started complaining to the nobility.
Naturally, these complaints fell on deaf ears, at least officially, as the Jesuits mission in the New World was explicit in word and in nature and it was plain for all to see that the Jesuits were simply fulfilling their duties as was ordered of them. Therefore it became necessary to make lies about the Jesuits' activities in the New World. The colonists told of Jesuit brothers conducting and operating gold and silver mines, of operating large plantations, using the natives as forced labor and as levying and collecting taxes from the colonists.
Of course these accusations held not a single shred of factual evidence and they were quickly discounted by the Spanish Crown, however the fact still remained that the Jesuit Brotherhood, due to their dogma beliefs, were disrupting the flow of things in the New World. And so, without any official reason as to why, the King of Spain ordered all Jesuits to immediately cease and desist all operations in the New World and for the OFM to take their places. The newly arrived Fransicians had been throughly briefed on the current state of affairs in the New World, and as such they turned a blind eye towards the colonists treatment of the natives and the colonization and expansion of Spanish possessions in the New World continued without interruption.
And so, the Jesuits traveled to other lands, the colonists in the New World continued enslaving and killing the natives, the Crown continued recieving the annual taxes and things were all well and good once more. Except if you were a native, of course.
This is what happened. These are the facts of the matter, they are all VERY well documented and they cannot be disputed. It seems that the lies and rumors levied against the Jesuits in the New World have continued to nurture and grow, even in the light of the truth. I find it to be amusing, strange and at the same time very sad, that a modern day people, with the finest educations that are available to them, and with written and documented facts at their disposal, would actually choose to believe these lies which were made up so many years ago in order to expel an honorable and Christian order from a land in order that a people be enslaved and virtually exterminated. C'est le vie.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Here is a very interesting statement:

"If your curiosity and budget allows, I would suggest that you make a visit to the Vatican in Rome and spend some time searching through their vast archives."

First, not just anyone is permitted to visit the archives in Rome. You must have permission and you must have a valid reason. Next, you MUST know that such a document already exists and you MUST ask for the document by name. They do not permit browsing through the archives as one would in a public library. By tradition and custom, all documents are permitted to be viewed by the public 75 years after they are catalogued into the archives except for documents housed inside the Apostolic Penitentiary, as these documents are to remain shut forever due to the Seal of the Confessional, which cannot be broken by anybody, including the Pope.

The Vatican Archives has over some 35 miles of shelves and over 40,000 volumes which are available for public viewing. With less than 6 fulltime archivists, the waiting list for admittance to the archives can take years.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Further research would seem to indicate that no "ALTAR" mission existed in Arizona or upper Sonora in the 1600 ot 1700s. There does exist, however a village named Presidio de Altar which now resides in modern day Sonora, Mexico. The actual full name was Santa Gertrudis del Altar, and later to be changed to Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe del Altar. This village is located close to the sites of Oquitoa and Tubutuma and currently is home to less than 10,000 inhabitants.
This particular presidio was established by Captain Bernardo de Urrea as a military oupost. It was not, however, established until the year 1775, a full SIXTY-FOUR YEARS after the death of Fr. Kino and SIX YEARS after the expulsion of the Jesuits from the New World! How can THIS little descrepency be explained? It can be explained as poor research on the part of the person(s) who fabricated the molds for the ingots in question, and instead of performing dilligent research first, they simply made some ingot molds on models of actual existing ingots, using fanciful names like Kino, Vargas and Altar, along with some old Christian symbols, to add a touch of authenticity to the farce. Because the further one digs into these mysterious gold and silver bars, the more the farce becomes revealed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

lamar you stated

" It was not, however, established until the year 1775, a full SIXTY-FOUR YEARS after the death of Fr. Kino and SIX YEARS after the expulsion of the Jesuits from the New World! "

are you saying the expulsion happend in 1705 and not 1703 ...the expusion of 1703 is docutmented do you know of a latter expulsion i dont know of ??

dont get wild i agree with 95% of your data so far ..and yes i agree about the pictures in question ..

 

[lamar]

Dear blidbowman;
I am sorry for the confusion, my friend. The official explusion was passed down from the King of Spain, however, word of the explusion, in the form of copies of the Kings' letters did not reach the New World until later the same year, complete with Francisian Friars and Brothers in tow. So, while the formal suppression was written in late January 1767 and executed in Spain and opened at midnight between between the 1st and 2nd of April, the news of the explusion of the Jesuits did not reach the New World until late June 1767, however the explusive action was delayed until the new govenor of Baja and Alta, California, Gaspar de Portola arrived on November 30th and executed the Royal decree to have all Jesuits taken captive and returned to Spain, at lance point, if necessary. The Jesuits Brothers from the 14 operating mission in Baja de California united in Loreto, then left for Spain in early Febuary 1768 and all of the missions were then turned over to the Fransicians and then later the Dominicans. Other Jesuit Brothers were not so easily reached and they in turn did not recieve the news of the explusion until very late in 1768 or early 1769. By this time the remaining Jesuits were no longer deported back to Spain, rather they were sent directly to the Papal States and later to Corsica, where they joined the rest of their Brotherhood.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

the reason i ask is there is a statement in "the lost jesuit gold of the sierra madre by tim haydock , that reads

" although many of the mexico's mines were owned by jesuit ,it was illegal under spanish law for priest to own and operate mines , this law was intially passed in 1592 and reiterated in 1621 in the face of gross violation by jesuits. in 1703 , a royal decree was passed to reproved those who were consistently breaking this law. "


this is why i ask the question .... and later in the book it stated " jesuit expulsion order in 1767 ",,,

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: True Spelling (another LONG reply, sorry to admit)

Greetings friends,

Cactusjumper wrote:

If that is your proof, no need to look any farther.

Greetings Joe, and no that is not "my proof" it is only a strange statement to find in a private letter, which was no intended for public consumption. My own "convincing" is found in the Pima revolt of 1751 and in some finds made personally in the mountains west of Tumacacori as well as the slag piles next to the Guevavi mission. While I doubt extremely that ALL or even MOST of the mining activity was the result of work done by the good padres, I also doubt extremely that they were ALL utterly innocent of such activity.

The Portuguese openly accused the Jesuits of operating mines, the Spanish not openly - I quote this passage from the expulsion order:

Having accepted the opinion of the members of my Royal Council in Extraordinary, which met on the 29th of last January for consultation concerning past occurrences and concerning matters which persons of the highest character have reported to me; moved by very grave causes relative to the obligation under which I find myself placed of maintaining my people in subordination, tranquility, and justice, and other urgent, just, and necessary reasons, which I reserve in my royal mind; making use of the supreme economical authority, which the Almighty has placed in my hands for the protection of my vassals, and the respect of my crown; I have ordered that the Jesuits be expelled from all my dominions of Spain, the Indies, and Philippine Islands, and other adjacent regions, priests as well as coadjutors or lay-brothers, who may have made the first profession, and the novices, who may wish to follow them; and that all the properties of the Society in my dominions be taken;

(from http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=244

A rather odd point if the Spanish were SO thorough in documenting EVERYTHING, that king Charles refrained from publishing some of his reasons, and apparently quite important reasons by the wording.

The Pimas certainly felt they had good reasons to be attacking the Jesuit padres and driving them out of Pimeria Alta, which would hardly be the case if the good padres were all as kind, gentle and helpful as the saintly Father Kino. If the Jesuits had been utterly innocent, are we to assume the Pimas so ignorant that they could not identify their oppressors, and could not have refrained from attacking the padres while turning their vengeance upon the "low" Spanish colonists? In my opinion such an assumption is rather short-sighted and underestimates the intelligence of the Pimas.

Lamar wrote:

It seems that every time someone uncovers a village of major or minor importance, the world instantly screams "Paititi has been discovered!" You should have heard the uproar when Machu Picchu was discovered. So just calm down, everyone.

Lamar you are certainly free and welcome to believe what you choose, and to dismiss the discovery of Palkiewicz, and it is always good to keep a skeptical mind when ever surprising claims are made. Time will determine if your skepticism is well founded or not.

Most all "myths" including Paititi and El Dorado are based on real facts, and we always have the loudest skeptics roaring right up until any such "myth" is suddenly proven to be real. Then we get silence from the same skeptics, and plenty of "I always believed it was true". I have posted this several times, but the list of supposed "myths" which have been proven to be real is large and always growing. Troy was long thought to be the work of fiction sprung from the mind of Homer, while others claimed that Homer did not exist and the fiction was the work of many. Now we know Troy was real, thanks to a German treasure hunter/prospector named Schliemann. Lost cities get found fairly often, even such supposed "legends" as Ubar, the city so wicked (according to the Quran) that the desert came and swallowed it. Fantasy animals such as the unicorn are really the result of garbled translations in ancient times, and can be traced to descriptions of the single-horned Asian rhino, the "Camel-leopard" was nothing but a giraffe, Leviathan a whale, and "dragons" started from garbled descriptions of Nile crocodiles. So please feel free to assume social and intellectual superiority by continuing to deny that myths are anything more than myths and lies, but be aware that this skepticism is not really good science nor any evidence of any superiority.

As always, good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

"My own "convincing" is found in the Pima revolt of 1751"

What part do you believe the Jesuits played in causing the Pima revolt?

Any ideas why the Indians never accused the Jesuits of enslaving them in their secret mines?

"While I doubt extremely that ALL or even MOST of the mining activity was the result of work done by the good padres, I also doubt extremely that they were ALL utterly innocent of such activity."

Which of the Jesuits do you believe engaged in this illegal mining?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

we all know there is one acount of the spanish and the jesuits being killed in a massacre after some apaches helped free other indains in the mines of tayopa . my question is this the real massacre site in the ldm legend know as the massacre grounds , there was spanish and jesuit stated to be there when the massacre happend ...and the jesuit may or may not have been part of the salves working the mines but they didnt do much to stop it ether .....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Peeps: Regarding Jesuit activities in mining, I have flat proof. How do you suppose that I finally found Tayopa? However, until Tayopa is finished, I am not at liberty to post anything other than what has already been posted..

So you will have to classify it as purely questionable anecdotal data for the moment

However, you will permit me to have a few quiet personal chuckles at some of the positive statements being posted. hehehehee...

Hang in there ORO my f riend, maybe some day we will get together to write the story of Tayopa..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The situation was worse between the Jesuits and the Portuguese settlers of Brazil than it was in New Spain. The portuguese settlers soon depleted the local native populations through slavery, disease, and war. It was practically genocide of the part of the Portuguese colonists and the only standing between them and the natives were the Jesuit Brothers. In order to get a firm grasp on how bad the Portueguese had depopulated Brazil, one only has to visit Brazil and see all of the African influence there. The Portuguese settlers had so throughly wiped out the native population of Brazil that soon they were buying slaves from Portuguese colonies in Africa. This soon became a VERY lucrative business for all parties involved, and the tade routes went from a back and forth one to a triangular one. The slave ships would depart the Portuguese colonies along the African coast, bound for Brazil with a cargo of fresh slaves in their holds. Upon arrival in the ports of Brazil, the slaves would be offloaded and traded for goods from the Brazillian mines and plantations. The ship would then make sail for Lisbon where the the trades goods would be offloaded and European trade goods would onloaded. The ship would then complete the triangle, arriving at the Portuguese colonies in Africa and trading the European cargo for more slave stock. These trade practices were all very well documented.
This soon turned into a never-ending trade cycle and it sickened the Jesuits in the Brazillian colonies, and so they quickly set about Christianizing the slaves from Africa as well as the native populace. Naturally, their Christianization of the natives and the African slaves made business matters worse for the Portuguese settlers and they wasted no time denouncing and accusing the Jesuit brothers of an entire host of crimes against the Crown of Portugal.
The Portuguese royality at the time were not anybodys' fools and they of course did not believe a word of these wild accusations, however they could not deny the fact that the Jesuits were disrupting a highly profitable business in the Brazillian and African colonies and this was of course putting a strain on the Royal revenues, and so they issued several edicts which called for investigations into the Jesuits activities, along with explusion from Brazil and Africa. The investigations revealed nothing, which was to be expected, however the Jesuits were ejected from all Portuguese possessions, and so business continued as before, the Royal Fifth was cheerfully collected by the Royal pursers and everyone was happy once more.
Not a single Jesuit was found guilty of any crime or theft by Papal, French, Spanish or Portuguese investigators and the real reasons why the Jesuits had been persucuted so unfairly soon became apparent, however by that time the damage had already been done and the Jesuits had all been sent to other parts of the globe.
To state that the Jesuits owned and operated mines is a ludicrious statement. Of course Jesuit priests were mine administrators. It's part of the reason why they were to the New World in the first place! The Jesuits soon became administrators of the colonies in the New World and they were charged with an entire host of secular duties and activities, namely overseeing and administering plantations and mines. One needs to remember that the Renascence period did not reach Spain and Portugal until at least the late 1700s and that the colleges and universities were all manned by Roman Catholic clergy and scholars. The Jesuits in the New World were practically the only ones who could read, write and perform mathmatical calculations therefore, by default they became the overseers in the New World. Asking a Spanish nobleman to adminster a plantation or a mine would be akin to asking a first grader to design a nuclear weapon, this is how uneducated the nobility was during the colonization of the New World.
So yes, there were Jesuits priests and bishops who were ordered by the Crowns of Spain and Portugal to act as administers and accountants in the New World. Most of them were able to increase annual productions through the applied use of modern scientific procedures (modern during that time, of course) and through the use of European agricultural and mining methods.
In the missions, Jesuits were, and still are, expected to be self-supporting and to such ends they plant crops, grow grapes for wine, keep bees and and perform an entire gamut of other things. Work and manual labor is NOT against the code of ethics of the Jesuits or any other Roman Catholic organization, in fact it is EXPECTED for both the clergy and the secular population to work. Hard work is the pathway to God. This was, is, and will ALWAYS shall be one of the basic tenets of the Roman Catholic faith. Were the Jesuits able to mine ores and precious gems? Yes, they were on a limited basis so they could remain self-supporting. So were the Francisians and the Dominicans able to do the very same thing, which they did.
In fact, the first US mining laws were adopted from Spanish mining laws, which were written by, you guessed it, a Jesuit scholar! The Jesuits also taught the use of crop rotation and they incorporated the first use of pesticides in Europe and the New World. They also believed, however in giving a man a fair wage for a fair days' work and THIS is when the troubles started with the colonists.
The Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores and the colonial settlers who followed were THIEVES! This much should be IMMEDIATELY obvious to anyone who has the capacity to read. They stripped the Aztec and Incan empires of all of their wealth in the span of a generation, and ever greedy for more, they quickly enslaved and killed the natives by the bushel basketsful. They were the worst sorts of criminals one can imagine during the late Medieval and early Renascence time periods and so naturally they were quite capable to making up lies about the Jesuits and anyone else who was brave or foolhardy enough to stand between them and their goals of wealth and power.
The Jesuits acted as referees of sorts, trying to save and Christinize the native populations of the New World, while at the same time permitting the colonists to settle the new lands and provide income for the Crown in the form of the "Quinta Real" or Royal Fifth, the 20% tax imposed by the Crown on all profits. This was a monumental task and it took a dedicated group of administrators to perform this, and these administrators were the Jesuits.
These are the facts. Every word which I have written is the product of actual research of actual documents which have been available for public viewing for centuries. I've not been able to come across any document in the form of a Royal Decree from 1592, 1621 or 1703 which expressly forbade the Jesuits, or anyone else from mining minerals or precious stones from the New World. Such documents would be ludacrious, taking into account that the fabulous silver mines at Potosi, Peru (now Bolivia) were adminstered by the Roman Catholic bishop Diego Ladrón de Guevara, whom the Crown of Spain appointed as Bishop of Upper Peru and later as Viceroy in 1703, and his zone of influence extended to the silver mines of Potosi. He remained at this post until he was deposed in 1716 on charges of embezzlement, which were later proven to be unfounded. His name, however, was very fitting. Ladron de Guevara, which translated to English means Thief of Guevara, ironically enough.
During his tenure as Viceroy, he increased mining production substantially while at the same time providing better working conditions for the miners. Through a bit of research, one will find that Roman Catholic clergy was involved in the administration of the colonies in the New World since the colonies were first established and the clergy that most often the administrators during the early and middle periods were in fact of the Jesuit Order. These are the facts. They aren't selective facts, nor are they half facts and suppositions based on actual facts. They aren't rumors, accusations, lies or conspiracies. They are facts. They are written and recorded and copied in a multitude of archives and libraries spread throughout Spain, Rome and the Americas. They are available to anyone who has the desire to seek them out. The authors and other so-called *professionals* who wrote books about the Jesuit involvement in the New World did so with a single goal in mind. To make a profit from the sale of their publications. One must always bear this mind BEFORE using an modern authors' opinion on the history of the New World.
When someone claims there was an archival document pertaining to any subject I always wonder why the author does not seem to include a photocopy from the actual document so the reader may formulate their own conclusions on the matter in question. This is not being obstinate, it is merely good research. In order to separate the wheat from the chaff (the facts from the fiction) one must always question not only the documentation in front of them, but also the motives how the documentation came to be produced in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: True Spelling NOT! this is WAY off topic EXTREMELY LONG POST

Greetings Cactusjumper, Real de Tayopa, Blindbowman, Lamar and everyone,

This has grown to a mini-book reply, so if anyone doesn't like LONG-LONG posts just skip the whole danged thing. For those inclined to wade through regardless of how long and tedious it might be, I beg your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote:

Oro,

(oroblanco wrote)"My own "convincing" is found in the Pima revolt of 1751"

What part do you believe the Jesuits played in causing the Pima revolt?

Maltreatment of their charges, specifically. Remember the Padres had the local Pimas, Opatas etc do a lot of work on the rancheria around the missions, this much is not disputed even by the Jesuits. Do you believe that ALL of the Jesuit fathers were so well beloved as Father Kino? Here is another extract, for something to ruminate upon:

The realito, (or mining camp) of Oquitoa, evidently located somewhere northwest of Átil, lost nineteen.

(from NPS)

Now the mining camp MIGHT have been completely void of any Jesuit influence whatsoever, but considering that all of the missions were expected to become "profitable" (again with good reason, that the churches and their charges could not be kept in operation indefinitely dependent solely upon the income derived from the Crown and the Vatican). It is also interesting that no one knows the location of this mining camp Oquitoa.....

Cactusjumper also wrote:

Any ideas why the Indians never accused the Jesuits of enslaving them in their secret mines?

My own supposition would be to keep the mines themselves secret, so to ensure that they could not be enslaved to work in them again. Also, are you absolutely certain that NO Indians EVER accused the Jesuits of forcing them to work in the mines? Can you provide proof of this statement, and it cannot be something from the Jesuits nor the Vatican, as they have good reason NOT to admit to any such thing.

Cactusjumper also wrote:

(Oroblanco wrote)"While I doubt extremely that ALL or even MOST of the mining activity was the result of work done by the good padres, I also doubt extremely that they were ALL utterly innocent of such activity."

Which of the Jesuits do you believe engaged in this illegal mining?

Thanks,

Joe

Now you ask me to name specific individuals? Well if I were to list a couple of prime suspects, it would include:

Reverend Fathers Tomás Tello and Enrique Ruhen, missionaries of Caborca and San Miguel de Sonoitac, and whomever had been in charge of Guevavi during the time when the piles of smelter slag were created, which cannot be determined at this point.

Real de Tayopa wrote:

HIO Peeps: Regarding Jesuit activities in mining, I have flat proof. How do you suppose that I finally found Tayopa? However, until Tayopa is finished, I am not at liberty to post anything other than what has already been posted..

Do you have anything conclusive you can reveal at this time, that would not disclose too much? I know of several 'evidences' that exist but cannot make them public and don't plan to, as it is in a spot I plan to return to.

Let me ask the skeptics this question:

Why would the Portuguese directly and openly accuse the Jesuits of mining gold within their dominions, unless they had good reason? Don't hand me "it was political" because if they were utterly innocent, the Pope should not have issued the brief of 1773 suppressing them. Why would the Pimas (and Papagoes) have revolted against the Jesuits as well as the Spanish, without good reason? The Pimas were one of the most peaceful of all the native tribes, to have driven them to violence means there was good reason; the plentiful evidence of mining activity in that part of southern Arizona shows where a good number of Pimas (and Papagoes and Opatas) MUST have been put to work, willing or otherwise. It is not simply a set of hollow accusations, there is evidence you can see with your own eyes remaining today.

I am sorry if my answers are not providing you with the "proof" you desire before you will be swayed in your opinions, but it is not my mission in life to 'convert' your opinions on the Jesuits. For the most part, the Jesuit fathers worked hard to help their charges the Indios, and in many cases protected them from virtual enslavement and maltreatment at the hands of Spanish colonists - however not every Jesuit was a saint. If this statement causes anyone offense, my apologies, no offense intended, simply stating that I cannot believe that ALL of the Jesuit fathers were virtual saints, much the same as the fact that not ALL of the Catholic priesthood in recent years was innocent of child molesting. In any group of people there are always bad apples.

Blindbowman wrote:

we all know there is one acount of the spanish and the jesuits being killed in a massacre after some apaches helped free other indains in the mines of tayopa . my question is this the real massacre site in the ldm legend know as the massacre grounds , there was spanish and jesuit stated to be there when the massacre happend ...and the jesuit may or may not have been part of the salves working the mines but they didnt do much to stop it ether

Blindbowman your question is one that cannot be answered today with an ABSOLUTE reply. We have only the reports of the witnesses who found the human remains and legends that can be traced to a couple of highly un-reliable sources. The "massacre" COULD have been Spaniards, or Mexicans, or Jesuits, or it COULD have been a party of Pimas or Papagoes that got caught by Apaches. This is a question that everyone has to decide for him/herself, using their own logic and whatever other information or 'gut feeling' they might choose to. You already know that there are plenty of folks who hold to the (questionable) legend, that the massacre victims are none other than the infamous Peralta party, yet is this the truth, or a matter of "shoe-fitting" evidence to a story? Let me ask you a very pertinent question mi amigo, can you show us here, a verifiable Mexican record of such a battle taking place in the Superstitions? I have researched this little question myself and never found any sort of record of such a battle, not even any report of missing persons that might possibly work to support it. Based on that (lack of records to support the battle) coupled with the opinion of the officer and other soldier who were among the three witnesses who found the human remains that the victims had been Pimas, (as opposed to the single soldier who thought they were Mexicans due to gold teeth in one skull) it seems that the logical conclusion would be that the "massacre" victims were in fact Pimas, who might possibly have had a Mexican or Anglo along in the party. A missing party of Indios was not so carefully recorded by those famous Spaniards or the Anglos for that matter. Just my opinion but I think we can thank good old Barry Storm and Bicknell for conflating the massacre into the Peralta story. Other stories have been "blended" into the LDM legend as well, by other authors.

Lamar wrote:

The Portuguese royality at the time were not anybodys' fools and they of course did not believe a word of these wild accusations

Can you prove that the Portuguese crown did not believe a word of the accusations?

Lamar also wrote:

The investigations revealed nothing

Without having access to the Portuguese archives, how can we be certain that they found nothing? It seems logical that if they indeed found the accusations were unfounded, they would not have expelled the Jesuits. The royals were nothing if not pragmatic, and the Jesuits served several useful purposes.

Lamar also wrote:

The Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores and the colonial settlers who followed were THIEVES!

I presume this is your own opinion. Are you saying that the Spanish and Portuguese conquistadores and colonial settlers did nothing of any good for the aboriginal peoples?

Lamar also wrote:

The authors and other so-called *professionals* who wrote books about the Jesuit involvement in the New World did so with a single goal in mind. To make a profit from the sale of their publications.

I presume this also is your own opinion, you would not presume to claim to know exactly what reasons any particular author had in his/her mind when writing up said works, right?

Lamar also wrote:

When someone claims there was an archival document pertaining to any subject I always wonder why the author does not seem to include a photocopy from the actual document so the reader may formulate their own conclusions on the matter in question

I provided links to several documents available online, perhaps you missed them? Lamar my friend, let me ask you a question; would you expect a religious order under the mantle of the Vatican, to keep written records of ILLEGAL activities by members of their own order? Regardless of denomination, be it Franciscan, Jesuit or any other. Would you expect to find records of illegal activities by, let us call him a "rogue" pastor, one who was not following the rules of the order and church and crown?

You must know already that many of the missionaries returning to Spain were seen wearing lots of gold and silver jewelry, including long and heavy gold chains - all of which was tax exempt as jewelry. I own a piece of this jewelry, (missing one small piece) and the jewelry alone raises questions about the "poverty" of the missionary fathers. (Not referring to the Jesuit fathers being expelled in 1767, as they were not allowed to take any jewelry along.)

My apologies for this EXTREMELY long post. As always, good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
The Jesuits or Black Robes as they were called by the natives were well recieved and well loved by the locals. This is not an opinion, this is a written fact. Unfortunately, the same thing cannot often be said of the Fransicans, or the Grey Robes as they were known. The basic tenets of the Roman Catholic doctrine states EXPLICITLY that NO CHRISTIAN CAN ENSLAVE ANOTHER CHRISTIAN!!! Period. End of subject. The Jesuits were VERY touchy on the subject of slavery and as such, I found it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that certain Jesuits would enslave anyone in direct violation of their basic beliefs, especially since there has yet to surface a single official document in support of this accusation.
Trust me, the Francisians whom replaced the Jesuits questioned the locals at length (one might say they were grilled) about the Jesuits activities and not once did anyone speak out for the record against the Jesuits. If there was one reliable source which stated that the Jesuits had been engaged in any illicit activity then the official record of the time would have reflected this.

When I stated:
"The Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores and the colonial settlers who followed were THIEVES! This much should be IMMEDIATELY obvious to anyone who has the capacity to read."

That is exactly what I meant. This is not a personal opinion, this is an historical FACT. All one has to do in order to believe this statement is to read and research the subject a bit. The natives were slaughtered by the 100s and the 1000s and all of it is very well documented by first hand witnesses. Some of them even took the trouble of illustrating the horrid details and there are even color illustrations of some of the horrendous events. These things DID happen! The details are written and are sitting in archives all over Spain and Rome today. it was from these archival records that the history of New Spain was written and these are the accredited texts which are used in universities and college worlwide and the atrocities committed by the Conquistadores and Colonists is EXTREMELY well documented, much to the dismay and horror of the gentry in the Old World, and especially at the Vatican.
These tomes were written by professional scholars and not some quack author trying to sell the world some distorted, untrue, non-factual view of how the history of the New World unfolded. In order for me to believe that the Jesuits enslaved, or even forced the natives to perform labor in mines or anywhere else, or that they engaged in illicit or illegal activities in the New World,I need to see some actual written proof the event before I believe it. By this, I mean an actual archival document which has been recorded and stored in an official archive or library of some sort, and not some wild theory by a person of disputable credentials.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
"Why would the Portuguese directly and openly accuse the Jesuits of mining gold within their dominions, unless they had good reason? Don't hand me "it was political" because if they were utterly innocent, the Pope should not have issued the brief of 1773 suppressing them."

My answer is, yes it WAS political. The Jesuits WERE stealing, but NOT in any physical sense. They were stealing profits from both the colonists and the crowned heads of Spain and Portugal by disrupting the cash flow in the New World. The power given to the Jesuits by the Royality must have been very frightening to the colonists and the Jesuits in fact enforced the Kings' will on the colonials. The power they held was all-encompassing and it was the Jesuits who kept an eye on the colonists to make sure that the colonists were not stealing from the Crown by not paying the Royal Fifth.
The Royal Fifth was very important to the Crown and at one point the Royal Fifth from the New Worldwas supplying 80 to 90% of all income to the Royal coffers. In light of this fact, keeping tabs on the settlers was of paramount importance to the Royality and the Jesuits were there in the New World to keep everyone honest. This is also a factual statement.
So naturally, considering the opposing forces in the New World, there was bound to be friction between the two factions. In the end it was the settlers who won, by virtue that they were keeping the Royal Houses of Spain and Portugal supplied with funds to keep the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal running. The nobility of Spain and Portugal, although accepting the fact that something must be done in order that the cash flow not be interrupted, yet unwilling to falsely convict the Jesuits, wrote vague decrees and suppressed them instead. This seemed like a nice safe compromise between two extremes.
On one hand, the powers in Spain and Portugal could have allowed the jesuits to remain in placed, unchecked, and as such suffer the very real threat of a dwindling tax base, or they could allow the colonists to slander the Jesuits and having flasely accused them of crimes which they did not commit, have them executed immediately. The nobility wisely chose the middle ground, and expelling the Jesuits without giving a reason as to why, and putting in their places another order more receptive to the will of the Crown, seemed like the most expedient and safest course to take.
This is exactly what they did. The Jesuits were never formally accused of any wrongdoing and as such, they were simply relieved of their posts in the New World. In other to grasp the impact of the events, one must look at the big picture in it's entirety instead of seeing just one tiny piece of it. The actual events which took place after the Jesuits were expelled are even more interesting. Instead of production increasing as it had during the time of the Jesuits, it started dwindling at an appalling rate. The annual Royal Fifth became less with each passing annum until it was a mere trickle of it's former value. It would seem that the Francisians, who were in leaque with the Crown, were also in leaque with the colonists upon arrival in the New World. The Francisian order grew wealthier while the Crown grew poorer and the colonists were happily paying less and less to the Crown.
And so, in less than a mere two generations, Spain lost all of Her possessions in the New World, and without funds to stifle the rapidly widespreading revolts, She packed her kit and returned to Her native shores, broken and bitter. All because the politicians of the day wouldn't take a decisive course of action against one of the two primary parties in the New World, the Jesuits vs. the colonists.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

hi Oro the acount i beleive was told by Bowman Keith , he is short acount of it .The Tayopa mine was very rich in gold and silver and the Spanish set up a mill and foundry to smelt the gold and silver into bars to facilitate the transportation of these bars back to Spain. The Catholic Priest came in and built a church so the Spaniards could worship and for the conversion of the Indian slaves. Mainly I think for the collecting of the tithes of the mine for the church, these to be sent back to the Vatican in Rome. As time went on transportation became a big problem and some of the mule trains of gold and silver bars never arrived at the coast to be loaded onto the waiting ships. So there was quite a back log of shipments that were stacked just inside of the mine. The Priest built a special cellar under the church and stored the portion for the church in this vault under the church. His treasure was made of not only gold and silver bars but also of gold crucifixes and statues of silver and gold. At this point our story teller brought out a book and read the long list of what there was stored under the church in the vault. We were all impressed by the fabulous amount of treasure that had accumulated. This list was from the list that the Priest had sent back to Rome detailing the Tithes that he had collected for the Church.

The story continued: One night some wandering Apaches secretly contacted the Indian slaves and told them that they would come on a certain night with guns and weapons and help them kill the Spaniards and free the slaves. True to their promise the Apaches came and armed the slaves. They killed all of the Spaniards and the Priest and put all of the bodies in the mine. They then covered up the mine entrance and destroyed the buildings.

According to history there was a general uprising of the slaves in all of the mines about this time. After things had settled down the Spaniards had not heard anything from the ones that had been operating the Tayopa mine. They sent a party to go see about the mine and the men who were running it. The problem was that none of them had ever been to the Tayopa mine consequently even though they spent many days searching they could not find the mine or their companions that had been stationed at the Tayopa.

The Catholic Church put out a list of the treasure that belonged to the Church and offered a great reward to entice adventurers to find and recover the treasure for the church. Many have searched through the years but the great and fabulous treasure still remains the lost mine of Tayopa.

The Story teller ended his story by saying that surely the mine must be somewhere near our camp because we were in the heart of the Seirra Madre Mountains. The next day while riding around the country, from a high point I asked him to look over the vast country. He looked and in every direction could see high ridge after high ridge and deep canyon after deep canyon until they faded in the blue distance. I think at that moment he gave up his illusion of ever finding the lost mine of Tayopa.



my piont is there could be a massacre site out there with no bodies ....

the massacre site grounds were stated to have bodies . this is true as far as i know . but this dose not mean there is not a massacre site out there in the area that we do not know about ...the other thing is at the massacre ground there was stated to be horse remains . this acount did not say anything about horse at the massacre site ...yet i know of two diffrent massacre sites alreay out there ....are there more ...?