True Spelling

[Cubfan64]

Oro - I'll give you what I believe to be BB's answers/theories to your questions - I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman made several statements here that raise more questions:

Blindbowman wrote:

it was Aztec , but was translated to old portuguese , found in the years 1279-1325 ,

How can we conclude the name Tayopa was translated to old Portuguese, when the Portuguese did not reach the Americas until circa 1500, when Pedro Alvares Cabral, swung too far westward while attempting to sail around Africa. I have not found any evidence to support an earlier Portuguese presence in America than 1500, two centuries after Deniz lived - a major timeline problem.

The evidence that the Portuguese reached the Americas far earlier is found on the stones themselves. Deniz' connection with navigational expertise as well as the Templars is further proof.

Blindbowman also wrote:

the language is old portuguese from the years of Deniz of portugal in the years of 1279-1325 ..

I respectfully disagree mi amigo, I see no reason to conclude the language is anything other than mid-twentieth century Spanglish. Have you considered that the stones might well be a mean fraud?

An extensive search on the internet turned up alot of information/proof that the language is indeed portugues from the years 1279-1325. I posted a HUGE treatise on this just yesterday, but then deleted it seconds later because you all just want to find the gold and not respect the history of it. As far as the stones being a fraud - impossible because the code has been broken by me and all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Blindbowman also wrote:

where is the AZtlan anyone . in my pocket, thats right ...

Hmm well there are a number of theories as to the true location of Aztlan, including a fairly sound one that Aztlan is one and the same with Atlantis! I hardly see Atlantis in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, much less in anyone's pocket - however....

This one eludes me - I'll leave it to BB to connect Atlantis to the Superstition Mts.

Blindbowman also wrote:

Deniz wanted copper and silver and was doing exploration inland from brazil in the years of 1279 -1300 when the templars vanished

I agree that king Deniz very probably wanted copper and silver, as well as gold and jewels and spices, but we have no evidence that Deniz had any knowledge of the Americas, much less had any ships exploring into Brazil. Do you know of any such evidence, if so I would appreciate if you could share it, as I have been working on a book for some eight years on ancient explorers, and have failed to find any evidence of Portuguese visiting the Americas prior to Cabral in 1500. There is evidence of Old World visitors prior to Columbus and Lief Eriksson, but nothing Portuguese....

Once again, the evidence is on the stones themselves - the old portuguese language from Deniz' time as well as the navigational hints and clues.

Blindbowman also wrote:

the code says pegleg was the one that change the wording in 1847

I respectfully disagree with this conclusion, and see no reason to think that Pegleg Smith, the successful kidnapper and horsethief, and source of one of the most famous lost mine legends in the whole southwest, had ever touched or even SEEN the so-called Peralta stone maps. I fear this is a very questionable leg of your theory mi amigo, and could be a false lead even if the stone maps are genuine.

BB found proof of a date that was changed specifically by PegLeg Smith who originally found the stones and tried to folllow the clues to riches. He was unable and as a result of his discouragement, he defaced the stones so that nobody else could follow them - BB himself however is the only person who has found the link and seen the true date on the stone that PegLeg tried to cover (despite the fact that BB has never physically investigated the stones themselves while many other people have and never noticed the "coverup").

You have a very interesting theory my friend Blindbowman, one that is going to take a lot of work to prove but if proven would result in the re-writing of many a history book. I wish you good luck and good hunting, and as always I hope you and everyone here find the treasures that you seek.

It IS an interesting theory and one where parts of it may even turn out to be correct - HOWEVER (and this is a huge however), to be 100% correct about such a plethora of (let's face it) outrageous links - from the Portuguese to Atlantis to the treasures from the Last Supper to the Templars - ALL INTERSECTING IN THE MOUNTAINS OF ARIZONA and identified by a couple stone tablets found is indeed a daunting assumption.

The truth is, the only way anyone will ever be convinced will be to "show me the money." I'll be right there alongside you Oro in tipping my hat to BB if we see a National Geographic special on his discoveries. Until that time however, I'll continue to have an open mind, but weigh everything with a hint of skepticism.

Good luck BB

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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[Cubfan64]

there are no facts untill they are made facts

we may find the answers we may never find any real evidence to help us under stand even part of the true history lost that could explan why and where and when . yet those welling to try well be the ones that do find it if it is ever found and then again

BB - every now and then you make statements that start to alter my opinion of you

I give you credit for one thing for sure - you're doing more than I've done in searching those mountains so in that regard alone I have to tip my hat to you for trying - it's more than I've done (so far).

In all honesty, I think if I were in your shoes and felt the way you do, I would keep it as quiet as possible as to the time period you plan to undertake your physical search. There ABSOLUTELY ARE people who lurk on forums such as these who have the means and resources to KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT what is going on in those mountains on a daily basis (as far as persons comings and goings are concerned). Greed is a dangerous thing my friend, and if one of those people feels you may be on to something, you could very well find yourself in a very uncomfortable position in the middle of those mountains during your expedition.

Best of luck to you

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
So the royal bloodlines of Portugal and Spain are intermingled. This is no big secret. And what does it all have to do with the price of tea in China All of the royal houses of Europe are interrelated in some fashion or other. Shoot, the Hapsburg familys' bloodline is an integral part of all European royal bloodlines and I don't hear of a conspiracy theory involving them.

Portugal wouldn't have even gotten such a large slice of the South American pie if it hadn't have been a mistake on the part of the current Pope at the time, and in an effort to settle a dispute between Spain and Portugal, accidentally gave Portugal much more land than was meant to give. All of this took place because of bad mapping practices at the time.

It seems to be fashionable to attempt to read more into a subject than what exists and in doing so people like to attempt to change the true course of history. History is just that. History. it can not be altered to suit a conspiracy theory or to justify an action or a cause. What has happened, has happened. There were no Jesuits mining for gold or silver, nor were there any Knights Templars in the New World. There were no Jews, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians or whatnot tramping around the American West. The KGC didn't have 2 nickels between themselves to bury, much less bury hoardes of ill-gotten gains all across the Midwestern and Western USA.

There are no lost Aztec or Incan mines just waiting to be re-discovered. The Spanish Conquistadores made sure of that. They tortured the local indigenious tribes to death in the never-ending quest for riches and they were extremely successful at their trade. The carved no archaic symbols into rock faces pointing the way to untold riches and they had no secret codes. The Conquistadores were uneducated men from some of the poorest and most looked down upon families in Spain. They were brutal men who would draw and quarter anyone if they thought that the person knew were so much as a silver brooch was hidden. They quite cherrfully burned, raped and pillaged all across North, Central and South America until there was nothing left to plunder. And in the wake of the Conquistadores, the real treasures of Latin America were discovered by the Spanish Colonists.

These treasures were not gold, silver, copper and iron. The real treasures of the New World were much more mundane in nature but of far greater value over the long term. These treasures were sugar, tobacco, chocolate and coffee. They grew in great abundance in the fertile valleys of the New World and they made the Spanish royality rich beyond their wildest dreams.

This is the true history of the Colonists and the New World, but because on the surface it seems so trifling and boring, everyone seems bent to offer alternate theories of how things unfolded. While entertaining reading, it just didn't happen that way.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
As an aside, the Spanish were EXCELLENT chroniclers and they wrote down EVERYTHING! And I mean EVERYTHING! They not only recordered official business, they wrote down personal observations and all manner of things. They were outstanding diarists of their time and there has never been a more detailled account in modern history than the conquest and settlement of the New World. I have no reason to believe that these chroniclers lied or omitted items, especially things of such a serious nature as mines and treasures.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[BILL96]

Lamar,
I for one really enjoy your posts, you seem to have a very strong backgroud in spanish history and history in general. Would you mind telling us a little about youself and your background and what brings you to this forum?
Thanks, Bill

 

[lamar]

Dear Bill96;
I was born in Corpus Christi, Texas. My parents were born in Barcelona, Spain and the emmigrated to Texas in the late 1930s. I lived in Corpus till I was around 7 years old, then I moved to Barcelona to live with my aunt & uncle. It was there that I learned about Spanish history as my uncle was a virtual walking archive of European history. Our holidays were filled with visiting ancient battle sites, with my uncle talking non-stop, acting like the tour guide. Not only did we travel Europe, being devout Roman Catholics we pilgramaged to the Holy Land and saw all the ancient sites and ruins of the Middle East.

When I was 15 I returned to Texas and finished my primary education, however I never lost the love of history which my uncle sparked in me. After returning to my native Texas I started to accquire an interst in western history with emphasis placed on the Spanish colonists. It was from these studies that I uncovered the facts of the Spaniards in the New World. Even 20 years ago there were vicious rumors being circulated about the missionaries in the New World, most notably the Jesuit Order, of which I am quite fond of. Such was my interest to seek out the truth pretaining to the Jesuits that I made several trips to Spain to research the archives. Not one shred of hard evidence was ever uncovered about this humble order. It was at this point that I started to come to the realization that many people, when they find history to be not exactly to their liking, take the liberty to alter history ever so slightly. This continues with each successive person, until the true history is no longer discernable due to all of the misinformation and made up stories lying about.
I've therefore set out to set the record straight as best I can. I am not stating there is not a lost (or probably most probably, forgotten) Aztec, Incan or Spanish colonial mine around as there very probably is, however if one were to look at things in the harsh light of reality, then one would realize that these ines were worked by enslaved people, night and day, for centuries and the wealth stored until the Conquistadores took it all back to Spain, where it was promptly used to purchase influence and to make war on Her neighbors as it so often the case.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

latter!

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: True Spelling (LONG reply, drifting off-topic)

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

I beg your indulgence, this is going to be a very long post.

I respectfully disagree with a number of your statements, on the grounds that they are mistaken. Let us start with one of your pet peeves, the humble order of the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits.

The Jesuits have never admitted to having owned nor operated any mines in the New World. Why then, do you suppose, that the Spanish royalty had to issue royal edicts ordering them to STOP mining? Why do you suppose that the Spanish king ordered the Jesuits expelled from ALL Spanish possessions in the New World, in a very well coordinated campaign? All smoke and no fire? Why do you suppose the Pima Indians of Pimeria Alta rose in revolt against the Jesuits and Spanish and slaughtered a number of the padres? Just plain mean-ness on the part of the Pimas? Your view of the Jesuits is quite what the Jesuits would have you believe - I would suggest that you read some of the Jesuits' own (secret) reports, which are available online - the Jesuit Relacions, and you will find a constant drive to make their various missions PROFITABLE, hardly the aim of what should be devoted workers who have taken vows of poverty. I can cite one particular example I know of first hand, the ancient Jesuit mission at Guevavi in southern Arizona. Beside the ancient mission ruins are huge piles of smelter slag, the clear by-products of large scale silver mining. How do we explain this slag then, if our good Jesuit padres had nothing to do with it?

Your statements that there were no Roman, Egyptians, etc tramping around in the New World is quite in line with what is printed in history books, and right in line with the Isolation theory. I say Isolation theory specifically because it is a theory, and for it to be true, there must be NO evidence of ANY kind of contact between the ancient Old World and the New World. Hmm, there are serious problems with this Isolation theory, such as the Egyptian mummies which when tested were found to have ingested American products of coca and nicotine. The Isolationists then tried to dismiss this as the result of some unknown African products that have similar traces to coca and nicotine, but unfortunately one of the Egyptian mummies was found to have an American tobacco leaf INSIDE the wrappings. American peanuts were found inside an ancient Chinese tomb that dated to 200 BC. American corn is found depicted on ancient statuary in India. A table found in an ancient Phoenician tomb was made of a Brazilian wood, (“Pau” or “Axe-breaker”) and Carthaginian coins have been found in eleven US states.

Inscriptions that point to Phoenician and Carthaginian visitors have been found in numerous places in North and South America. DNA tests of American Indians have shown a direct blood relationship to ancient Greeks. Linguistic evidence point to Semitic influence on specific Amerindian tribes including the Mayas, Zuni, and several other tribes. One of the most lasting evidences is in geographic names – places tend to retain the names long after the people who named them have vanished, and is it coincidence when we find that an American state has a Punic name? (Alaska, is supposed to mean “the great land” in the native languages, Al Asqa, pronounced exactly the same, means exactly the same thing in Punic, the language of Carthage.) One of the ancient cities of Mexico contains the whole name of a great Carthaginian explorer – Xochimilco, compare to the Punic admiral Himilco.

Then there are the shipwrecks. Yes I said shipwrecks, plural. A North African ancient wreck lies in the Bay of Jars off Rio de Janeiro, another is off the coast of Honduras, from which several Punic amphorae and the ship’s anchor have been retrieved. What is probably a Roman wreck lies off the beach near Beverly, Massachusetts, that has been casting Roman coins ashore for many years. A shipwreck found by accident by divers working off the coast of Bimini Island (examining the so-called “Bimini Road” formation) was examined by a Yale professor who concluded the wreck was Phoenician and dated to 1200 BC. A Punic wreck was found “deeply embedded in sand” on the coast of Mexico in the late 1800s. There are several others but you get the idea.

Then there are the products. How do we explain the fact that the first European explorers found Old World cotton being cultivated in Mexico? (Columbus was offered spools of cotton as trade items by American Indians on his very first contact, which he took to be proof of having reached Asia) How do we explain the fact that humble chickens were found among Amerindian tribes across two continents, when chickens are native to central Asia and were only brought to Europe around the time of Alexander the great? The list would fill several pages but suffice to a handful – look up bottle gourds, sweet potatoes, hemp,and peppers for instance. I won't go into the bronze tools and weapons found in the Americas, when we know that no Americans were creating bronze in ancient times, or the urns, oil lamps, or clay tablets that were covered with cuneiform writing.

Then there are the ancient records of explorations – read what Aristotle had to say about Carthaginians having discovered a secret land, far across the Atlantic, which he thought was the source of the wealth of Carthage. He said that Carthage even attempted to plant a colony there, but it was later withdrawn by order of the senate. Diodorus Siculus repeats the same statements of Aristotle, explaining how the Americas were discovered quite by accident, when some Punic ships were sailing south along the African-Atlantic coast planting colonies, and got blown across the sea by powerful east winds. He stated that the Carthaginians were keeping the lands a secret, and prevented anyone from sailing past the “Pillars of Herakles” (Straits of Gibraltar) with a powerful squadron of warships that would attack and sink any foreign vessel on sight.

Plutarch reports having found an ancient document in the ruins of Carthage (which had been destroyed over a century before he lived) that described the northern route to America, virtually the exact same route used by the Norse over 1000 years later. He said that some “Greeks” had even traveled there and intermarried with the local people, and that one of those people had even visited Carthage.

Herodotus reports how the Carthaginians circumnavigated Africa soon after the Phoenicians, and how they traded with peoples with whom they had little interaction by placing the goods on shore and waiting for the native people to leave gold for exchange. (One of the most common trade goods Carthage sold was salt, along with hemp)

The famous Captain John Smith, of Pocahontas fame, wrote:

“The Spanish say that Hanno, a prince of Carthage, was the first, and Columbus the next, to discover these lands.”

The Spanish themselves were fairly convinced that Peru was none other than the Ophir of the Bible, even the name is etymologically identical. The great explorer Gene Savoy found glyphs in Peru that were identical with glyphs found in what is today Israel, that translates as “Ophir”.

Read over the myth of Quetzalcoatl, the strange white "god" figure who came "from the east" by boat across the sea, and brought the arts of writing and agriculture to ancient Amerindians, and compare it to other Amerindian legends that report visitors or gods that crossed the ocean and brought science and art such as Viricocha. Compare the Mesoamerican mythical hero figures known as the "Hero Twins" to the ancient Greek Dioscuri, also known as "hero twins". Read the myth of Perseus on his strange quest to kill the terrible Medusa, or the myth of Herakles on his quest for the "golden apples" and then research to find that the demigod Herakles/Hercules/Melikarthus is in fact originally a Phoenician god known as Melqart, and can be traced to being a Tyrian philosopher who lived prior to 1200 BC. Perseus and Herakles go off sailing across the Atlantic to strange lands with strange peoples, quite possibly a allegorized account of Bronze Age explorations!

Then there is the case of the missing billions (yes BILLIONS) of pounds of copper, mined in the Great Lakes region during the same time period, by some mysterious people and nowhere to be found in the Americas - yet there is a tremendous supply of copper to make bronze in the Old World during the same time period, when there is no such supply known during their time in the Old World. Coincidence?

Even in cultural practices we find striking evidences that point to some levels of contact in ancient times - such as the Phoenician/Punic practice of child sacrifice and human sacrifice - then we look at the highest cultures in the ancient Americas such as the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas and what do we find? Child and human sacrifice. The ancient Carthaginians were famous for making use of smoke signals for distant communications - now remember that many Amerindian tribes also used smoke signals for communications. More coincidences? We look at Egypt and see pyramids, then we look at the Americas and see more pyramids - we are told this is pure coincidence even though the base dimensions of the Great Pyramid in Egypt is virtually identical with the base dimensions of the Pyramid of the Sun in Mexico. In Egypt we can show how the Egyptians invented the pyramid, starting with the moustaba (bench) tomb, then stacking it into the stepped pyramid, finally ending with the true pyramid. We find pyramids in Rome, pyramids in India, pyramids in China, pyramids in Korea, and no historian has any doubt that this is due to contact between the cultures - yet we find more pyramids in the Americas and can find no evidence of how they invented them, but it must be independent invention?

How can we explain the manufacture and use of the famous Tyrian purple dye, made by the ancient Phoenicians for trade and export, and then find ancient Mayan textiles that are dyed by the identical dye, by a method that even the historians admit has to be one learned and NOT by independent invention? (The dye is made from the sweat gland of a specific species of sea snail, Murex Purpura)

This is not to say that there were fleets of ships traveling to the Americas in ancient times, the contact that was taking place was certainly of sporadic and very limited extent. To think that there was no contact, that the Americas were in utter isolation from the time of the last Ice Age until the arrival of Leif Eriksson requires that there be NO evidence of any kind of contact. However there are numerous examples that show that some level of contact was indeed taking place. The knowledge of the Americas was most likely lost due to the Roman conquest of the Phoenician powers, and even the Romans made at least one attempt to explore across the Atlantic (read Josephus where he is berating his fellow Jews, saying that the Romans had even “explored across the ocean for new worlds to conquer”, this is confirmed in Strabo and others) – and it is likely that many such contacts were accidental. We know that Bjarni Herjulfsson was blown across the Atlantic by strong winds and saw North America by accident but failed to go ashore so is a footnote to history; Leif Eriksson went to investigate. Captain Jean Blanc, a French seaman, was blown across the Atlantic in 1484 by storms and saw what can only be Brazil, but failed to go ashore and is a footnote, while Cabral was trying to sail south along the coast of Africa (just as Diodorus describes the Carthaginians) when he was blown far to the west and discovered Brazil. (Even the name “Brazil” may well be Phoenician in origins, for their name seems to have been “Bar-Zil” that translates to “land of iron”.)

So am I saying there were Roman legions tramping around in the Superstitions? Hardly, however it is a mistake to think that NO ONE was crossing the oceans in ancient times, and that no contact was taking place. I have been working on a book on this very subject for some eight years now and contributed a short version to a book that is available now titled “Underground” and edited by Preston Peet, which is an anthology of many alternative history theories. Some of the theories are pretty far-fetched, but should be considered before dismissing out of hand.

Open your mind, my friend Lamar, history is not always what it seems. What we are taught is in truth an approximation of the truth, not the whole truth. If you are interested in ancient visitors to the Americas, I would suggest a few books:

America BC by Dr Barry Fell
Saga America by Dr Fell
Did the Phoenicians Discover America? By Thomas C Johnston
In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America by Gloria Farley

You may enjoy checking some of the ancient sources I mentioned, check out:

On Marvelous Things Heard by Aristotle
Library of History by Diodorus Siculus, books 2, 3, 4 and fragments of 9
On the Face of the Moon by Plutarch
Varia Historia by Aelian
The Histories by Herodotus
Timaeus and Critias by Plato (a clear statement ignored by Atlantis-searchers that proves the ancients knew of the existence of the Americas, if you like I will point it out)

These are only a handful! This might seem strange that so many evidences exist but there seems to have been some effort on the part of historians to keep such evidences out of the public eye, after all we are supposed to accept and believe the false Isolation theory as fact.

Blindbowman and Cubfan, thank you for your attempts to answer my questions. It seems that at every turn when we find some answers it only serves to raise more questions. I won’t test your patience with still more questions on the theories or stones, and forgive my rant (above) on history..

Good luck and good hunting to you Lamar and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO peeps: to add confusion, here is an intepretation from Los Yaquis.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro - you truly are an interesting person! If I had to choose two people from the internet that I haven't met but would like to, I would have to put you and Real de at the top of the list.

I imagine I could sit and listen to both of you for hours and come away feeling like a re-invigorated kid again - not only are you both well versed in many facets of history, but I believe you both have seen and done things that many of us could only dream of!

Always look forward to your posts! Oh, and by the way, make sure when you do finish your book that you post the title on these forums as I'm certain a number of us will be anxious to add it to our collections!

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Ed - I think you have a good chance of finding something great! I am firmly convinced that the Topira described to Coronado is NOT one and the same with Tayopa, even though some modern historians seem to want to lump them into one. There is no "R" in Tayopa nor in many of the variant spellings of Taiope, Tiyopah, Teopa etc and we know that Topira had differences in description that would not support it being Tayohpa. This is one point on which I do not know where our mutual (and highly successful treasure hunting buddy) friend Jose' (Real de Tayopa) stands, but I would be surprised if he is not in agreement with you as well.

I wish that I could accompany you in your search Ed, but wishing and doing are two different things so I will wish you the very best of luck - even though we both know that luck is only a part of the equation, a greater part is hard work, research, and field explorations. Good luck and good hunting to you Ed and to everyone here, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

as crazy as it may sound i could still be on the right path ....if i rise questions then i am not dead yet !

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman,

Blindbowman wrote:

as crazy as it may sound i could still be on the right path ....if i rise questions then i am not dead yet !

As you know all too well - there are plenty of folks out there who think that ANYONE (including ALL of us here) who would go out in search of lost treasures is indeed "on the wrong path!" and NUTS to boot! I only wish that I could take some of these 'skeptics' out on a real treasure hunt, and see if they still hold to their opinions! (heh heh ) Don't get the idea that because we might disagree on some theoretical points, that I want to discourage you - just the opposite, I hope you will convince me that your theories are right! I would love nothing more than to see our history books get some long-needed revisions, and NOT the "politically-correct" BS white-wash jobs that are being done either. I say we ought to give credit where credit is due, including to some long-deserved but utterly ignored people of our past.

In every culture everywhere and all throughout history, there are those who will "push the boundaries" and seek to find what is beyond the horizon. To those who are comfortable in their assumptions, such a seeker must be crazy or a dolt etc but remember it is those same seekers/dreamers who make pretty much ALL of the discoveries.

Good luck to you Blindbowman, I look forward to your progress and hope you will succeed. Remember that even at worst, should your theories prove incorrect, you will find the truth and have the experiences of a lifetime to remember - something that those who never go treasure hunting will never experience.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear OroBlanco;
Your post brings up some very interesting points, my friend. First, let's examine in detail the supposed relationship between the Jesuit order and mining in the New World. It's well known that the Jesuits were not permitted to operate mines. But WHY One could assume that being a holy order, the Jesuits would be ideal candidates to oversee the royal mining operations in the New World. So why then, weren't the Jesuits permitted to mine for precious metals?
No royal edit has yet been discovered stating the Jesuit brotherhood was not permitted to operate mines. This edit in fact comes from the Jesuits themselves. They were not, nor still, permitted to engage in any commercial venture that is profit motivated or is at odds with their Christian beliefs. Period. The King of Spain had nothing to do with it. THIS is a FACT. This is written and it is a part of the historical record. Accept it for it is. It did happen.
Why then were the Jesuits expelled from the New World? Politics and the status quo, nothing more than this, my friends. First, the numbers of the Jesuit order began shrinking in the mid 1600s, due to in no small part to the Renasence which was occurring all over Europe. Unlike the other monastetic orders in place at the time, the Jesuits embraced the new theory of science, which was seen as sorcerery by practically all of the ancient European world. Only the Jesuits sought to answer previously unanswerable questions through the use of scientific methods. This put the order at odds with the rest of the Roman Catholic world and they were soon branded by rumors as heretics and sorcerers. In fact, one only has to look at the garb of a Jesuit monks during the 1500s and 1600s and look at a modern caricature of a witch to immediately see the remarkable similiarites between the two. This is no accident. The witches' costume is based upon the Jesuits' style of dress in the 1500s, because the Jesuits embraces science as a path to God and understanding. One does not need to travel far in order to see the impact which the Jesuit order has made of the scientific community. If one has an interest in astronomy, then all one needs to do is to visit the celestial telescope in Arizona. Here you will find one of the largest refractive telescopes in the world, maintained by Jesuit astronomers. Yes, the astronomers are Jesuit monks. One may find Jesuit monks, along with Jesuits funded scientific studies, all over the world. Or take a visit to Boston College. This is a Jesuit funded and operated university and it's well known everywhere on the planet. This IS a fact. You don't need to believe me, you can prove it to yourselves with your own eyes.
The Spanish royality, always extremely slow in matters of a religious nature, sought to replace the Jesuit order , not ONLY in the New World, but in ALL Spanish possessions and territories, with members of the much more traditional and staid Francisian order. It had absolutely NOTHING to do mines or mining in the New World. I dare anyone to produce a single scrap of paper with a royal edit proclaiming the Jesuit order was expelled from the New World due to mining. It just didn't happen.
During the time the Renascence was taking place in Europe, Spain was going through it's darkest time in it's history, the Spanish Inquistion. The King of Spain did NOT wish to be accused of consorting with heretics, therefore he washed his hands of the Jesuit order and proclaimed the Francisians as his right hand in matters of an eccelestical nature. I can only imagine the Jesuits came very close to being accused and tried for herecy against the Church, and even though nobody was brave, or foolhardy, enough to publicly accuse them, in backrooms and in the hallways of power they were considered to be sorcerers and heretics.
The Spanish Inquision, started around 1483 By King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, with the original intentions of removing the last Moorish Muslims and Jews from Spain. At the head of the Inquision was Tomas de Torquemada, a Dominican, who not only wished to expel all Muslims and Jews, but extended the power of the Inquision to encompass all subjects under Spanish rule. The Dominicans, most generally at odds with the Jesuits, are among the most traditional of the Roman Catholic monastetic Holy orders, and as such they often times found themselves at odds with the Jesuit order. It has been sumised that Torquemada and a few of his successors, wished to put various members of the Jesuit order on trial through the Inquision, however they feared for their own safety as the Jesuits were very powerful and influential members of the Tribunal in Rome, and the Inquistors did not desire to rock the boat of power and influence, lest they themselves be accused of the same heresies.
The Inquision, oddly enough started before the Jesuit order even came into existence. It's founder, Saint Ignatius of Loyola, was a Basque knight before embarking on a life of servitude to the Roman Catholic church, and he found immediate favor in the Spanish royal houses, in no small part because he was of Spanish origin.
It's interesting to note how the Jesuits are often portrayed as wearing pointed hats and black robes and it seems to be taken for granted that this was the dress of the Jesuit order during the colonization of the Americas, however there has NEVER been an official dress in the Jesuit order, even to this very day. Jesuits have always been, as they still are, free to dress however they choose to. In the Americas, the Indians took to calling them the black robes because a large majority of Jesuits took to wearing black robes, even though this particular form of habit was never recognized as the official habit of the order. Very few Jesuits actually wore the pointed hat which many seem to think all Jesuits wore.
This is why the Jesuit order was expelled from the New World. it had nothing to do with the operation and exploitation of minerals. It had everything to do with politics and internal power struggles. Granted, politics is very boring and it does not make for exciting reading, so it seems that people who rather use their very vivid imaginations and surmise their own reasons why the Jesuit order was removed from the New World.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Hey Lamar,

Good history all, but there is so much more that was left out that won't even start to go into here. It is enough to fill several books. For a good look at what the Jesuits said versus what they actually did, please read through this thread at the History Hunters Forums:

http://historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php?topic=2321.0

Also, the Jesuit Order administered and taught the mining schools in the New World. At the time, most of the Jesuits were German, and experts in geology, physics, mathematics, and mine engineering.

There was an agreement between the Jesuit Order and the King of Spain that, as of 1697, the Jesuits had free reign over Pimeria Alta. All their converts were not obliged to work for the Spaniards (as was the case otherwise). This agreement was to last for twenty years. For the Jesuits' part, they were not allowed to engage in ANY money making activities. They actually did break the rules in several respects. In the History Hunters Thread, you will find historical quotes regarding objects and icons in many Missions in Sonora made of silver (including a VERY large bannister (railing) made of pure silver.

If you believe that the Jesuits were completely honest in all their dealings, you may want to read up some on the subject of the "Gunpowder Plot of 1605".

I have corresponded with one of the Archive Secretaries of the Order of Jesus for a few years. I have broached the subject of Jesuit Mining Enterprises several times. I have been stonewalled often, but occasionally things slip. I asked him that if the Jesuits had mines, they would have had to send maps to the order in Rome or Mexico City. Instead of telling me "no such maps exist" or "the Jesuits didn't operate mines", I was told "The maps you asked about are not in this archive." That answer says a LOT.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

You are testing the wrong man in Lamar. He is, pretty much, correct. I knew that his answer to Oro would not be long in coming or short on historical facts.

I have been saying for years.....that history is changed one word at a time. Where Jesuit mining is concerned, it's one book at a time. Lamar knows his history, but he won't find much of an audience here.
Hopefully he will stick around long enough to educate us all.

It would seem that Lamar and I are on the same page, I just wasn't fortunate enough to arrive there by the same road he took. IMHO, he is on the money.

Take care,

Joe

 

[steve71]

I guess that everyone knows that out in the Southwest due to the Sp/Mexican influence,
Words are spelled one way and prononced another way!
As it is in most countries!
In The SW ....
Words with "LL" are pronounced , w/o The "LL" portion of the word ..
It's silent !
As The "LLano River" in Texas .. it's pronounced, "Ano"
OR!
"The Caballo Mnts" in New Mexico " "ka by oo" or, "ka vie oo"
Js & Gs are prononced with an "H" sound
The Az. Town of "AJO" for instance:
Is prononuced "ah ho", NOT! "AH JOE" !
Or
The Gila Monster (a large poisonous lizard) Is, "He La", not, "Gee la" !

What the early TH'er writers did , was to spell the Name of this Famous Mine/mission

Like it sounded !
Tay O pah
Not as it is written.....
OR!
AS it is Pronouced by the Native speaking peoples!

Teopa

Break out your Mexico Topographic Maps and you'll find the Word ...
One is a modern Day Peak, one is a Spanish mission etc....

the llano river is pronounced just like its spelt.i've found artifacts on the llano river.i've never heard it called the ano river,lol.not saying your wrong on the most part.

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

Your long post was very interesting. Did you ever consider the possibility that civilization and the pyramids went from South America to Europe and not the other way around?

Have a nice Thanksgiving,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

i hate this shit this early in the morning , " i agree with CJ ...

lol


we can debeat any one or anything if it gets us close ,but i am already standing on a few discoveries that need to be clearived frist .. you guys fight out this jesuit thing . get it out of your systems and lt deguss some realistic simbolics or fact or even possable dirrections ...the jesuits as well as the templar were for the most part closed orders .and the templar were out right masters of secrecy ... so anything found to connect ether of these groups to any part of these legend well be breadcrumbs at best ...

i am not saying the values in my theories could not change with the comeing of evidence found . but i was studing the Aztec and the posable sites i have located . they real sites not posable site . its hard to beleive things change with the passing of time but they do and we have to work twice as hard to find any evidence at now ...

lamar is good at what larmar is good at . under stand what he says and they draw of it what you may ...but for god sake dont start all the attacting the new guy shit that stuff gets old quick.. so set back thank god for what we have and say welcome to or new friend larmar and lets have a great day ..


who knows what tomorrow brings , what treasure lay just into our futures .. give a little recieve a little ...


you guys all have a great day ...i hope i well ...

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Let's take an example of how a theory breaks down when exposed to the light of factual evidence. let's take a single statement and place in under heavy scrutiny for all to see.

"Then there is the case of the missing billions (yes BILLIONS) of pounds of copper, mined in the Great Lakes region during the same time period, by some mysterious people and nowhere to be found in the Americas - yet there is a tremendous supply of copper to make bronze in the Old World during the same time period, when there is no such supply known during their time in the Old World. Coincidence?"

First, how do we KNOW that billions of copper are in fact missing? Did someone inventory the native copper, then when they returned a few years later noticed that a billion pounds of the stuff were missing? I can imagine that the thought process went something like this: "Hmmmm, now where IS all of that native copper that was lying around here There was a few billion pounds of the stuff that we were going to use to make something special for the chiefs' wedding. I guess I should report this to the front office."

Sure, I'll bet that it happened in just that manner. First, copper is not native to the Great Lakes region, iron is. But, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that there actually was several billion pounds of readly accessible and mineable native copper in the region. Has anyone ever seen what 1 BILLION pounds of copper looks like I've seen a few tons of it before and that was a LOT of copper. I can just imagine how big of a mountain that one B-I-L-L-I-O-N pounds of native copper looks like. That would a HUGE mountain of copper.

OK, so now we have our 1 billion pounds of copper lying in the ground, just waiting to be mined by some industrialistic natives. To mine 1 billion pounds of native would have taken an EXTRAORDINARY amount of labor. The manpower requirements for exploiting 1 billion pounds of native copper would be mind boggling by todays' standards, to say nothing of the fact that everything had to be extracted from the earth by hand, using only the crudest sort of tools. It would have required hundreds of thousands of men, working round the clock for generations merely to extract 1,000,000 pounds of native copper ore, to say nothing of the processing part.

So where did the miners live while they were mining this ore? You can't mine copper of this magnitude without there being a trace of the people who mined the ore. The process would have required cities of men and women, complete with a supporting logistics system, in order to accomplish an undertaking of this size. Nobody can tell me that the miners homes disappeared from the earth without a trace as something on a scale this large cannot just up and disappear.

So what happened to the ore after it was wrenched from the earth? Was it shipped to Europe or to other points, henceforth unknown? In order to transship 1 billion pounds of processed copper ore, it would have required tens of thousands of ships, each displacing around 50 tons and each sailing back and forth non-stop for generations in order to move the 1 billion pounds of copper ore. Again, you cannot possibly hide the residue from a 10,000 ship fleet, no matter how hard you tried. Surely there would be SOME evidence of this massive fleet, as evidenced by waste, trash, lost items and shipwrecks. It's simply impossible to think about.

Now, this is logical deduction breaking apart the statement that billions of copper were somehow displaced by person, or persons, unknown and has yet to be found. Now we can proceed to further tear apart this rather ridiculous statement through the use of scientific deduction. How can science help us to determine the validity or falseness of the statement in question?

By the simple use of metallurgy, that's how. A good metallurgist, working in a lab, can not only tell from region the ore from a particular metallic artifact was mined at, they can also tell us the approximate age of the artifact, by the particular process which was utilized to smelt and shape the piece. First, the scientist examines the modecular structure of the artifact. This is known as the *lattice* or the matrix. From this lattice the scientist can determine the base metal, the alloying agents used, the trace minerals and the processes used to shape and form the artifact. From all of this data the scientist can pinpoint the region the ore in the artifact came from. From the alloying agents and the modecular spacing of the lattice the scientist can deduce the time frame the artifact was manufactured in and also the region in which the artifact was produced.

I can state with some authority that NO copper or bronze artifact has yet been discovered in either Europe, Asia or Africa which has shown to have been manufactured using ores or alloys mined from the Great Lakes region of the USA. Again, using logic and science together, one can assume that 1 billion of native copper ore would an untold amount of artifacts. The artifacts would be virtually EVERYWHERE. They would be turning up in every spot on the planet. This is how much that 1 billion pounds of copper equals. With one billion pounds of mined native copper ore the planet would have no need to mine any more copper, right up till today. As yet, there has no been even close to one billion pounds of native copper mined on the entire planet.

On the surfacr, such a statement might seem to have some basis of fact, but once examined from all sides and all of the logical questions have been asked, it crumbles into dust. To drive home the point further still, scientific process can be incorporated to completely rip to shreds the statement that billions of pounds of native copper were mined in the Great Lakes region of the USA, then simply disappeared to parts unknown, by persons unknown. It just didn't happen.
Your friend;
LAMAR