Roslyn pictures

[Kentucky Kache]

SWR, if you had one guess, would you say that guy had a Harvard education, or no education at all? If you had one guess, would you say that guy had a million dollars, or poor? These are the things that make people think their poop don't stink.
Lamar commented on the guy being an inbred. Why didn't you ask Lamar the same question?

Actually, I said people LIKE that. The guy in that picture might be some dude on vacation for all I know.

 

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[lamar]

Dear SWR;
The truly sad part of the entire episode is that I was attempting to open a discussion regarding the mysterious carvings which cover virtually every surface of Roslyn Chapel. That they are somehow related to the Masons is fairly obvious and certain but what nobody seems to know is if the Masons were responsible for the carvings or if the carvings pre-dated the Masons and perhaps influenced them. Interesting subject, in my opinion. It's a shame that it will not be broached.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear SWR;
I was there when the chapel was in desperate need of a full restoration and even in that state, the structure was absolutely breath-taking to behold. I cannot imagine how it will look after restoration work has been completed. This is why I am so excited to see the structure in the process of major restoration efforts. Photos and eyewitness accounts come nowhere close to describing the intricate beauty of the chapel. If you are ever interested in travelling to the British Isles on a historical tour then Roslyn Chapel should be at the top of the list, along with the wall and Whitby Abbey.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

SWR, if you had one guess, would you say that guy had a Harvard education, or no education at all? If you had one guess, would you say that guy had a million dollars, or poor? These are the things that make people think their poop don't stink.
Lamar commented on the guy being an inbred. Why didn't you ask Lamar the same question?

Actually, I said people LIKE that. The guy in that picture might be some dude on vacation for all I know.

I can only comment, or make an educated guess, on the facts presented. I know nothing of their education or financial holdings. If you think education and wealth are bad things, you may want to check into reorganizing your goals in life.

You may not know (or don't care) but your cheap shots at Lamar are annoying. This thread started out in grand fashion, with beautiful pictures. Your cheap shot ran it ran into the ground.

And yet, you chose to join in. If your friend, Lamar can't take something as benign as what I said, then he has no chance out in the real world.
The thing I'm against is someone thinking they're higher than others. If you were half as intelligent as you think you are, you would have been able to have read that. Did you read what your friend said about the guy in the pic? He thinks he's above this guy.
...looks like you two are a good match.

Lamar, I would not mind having that man as a cousin, grandfather, etc. What I would not want is some snob who don't know their but from a hole in the ground. You know the type. They think they are smarter than everyone else, they think they speak better than everyone else...well, you know the type.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you NewtoPa for posting the fascinating photos! What a spellbinding place. Just my opinion but the mysteries surrounding Rosslyn make it so much more interesting - there are many other chapels and cathedrals scattered about Europe yet few have so much mystique as Rosslyn. Thank you again, and I hope you have a great evening!
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

Thank you Oroblanco , and thank you all for all the appreciation shown.Now as promised i will post some pictures of an area i should not have been in and also an area that its questionable if i should have been there.
I wont at this point enter a debate on who carved what and why , what i will say is that within Roslyn are carvings in stone of Maize , North American Indian corn.200 years before Columbus ever set sail.

 

[rmptr]

Yup!

Great pics.

Thanks for posting!
rmptr


(the 'moonshiner' looks staged... Doors behind him well built, in good condition. Sitting on a air/vol cinder block.
His hands are white-clean and his beard is shampooed. Great pic, though!)

..and no self-respectin' moonshiner would be caught drinkin' something that dark on camera!

Everclear!

 

[Oroblanco]

NewtoPa wrote

what i will say is that within Roslyn are carvings in stone of Maize , North American Indian corn.200 years before Columbus ever set sail.

I have heard this before, it is quite a mystery. Without trying to draw the ire of some of our "professional skeptics" here, how would you explain it? Any pet theories? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

There is only one explanation Oroblanco , somebody who was at Roslyn or had a hand in design had been to the Americas.Possible they had seen similar carvings in Europe , somebody however had been to the Americas long before Columbus and i think today that theory is getting some credance.
The corn is not the only strange item to appear , various versions of the green man are carved which is very pagan.I dont think many middle age societys predate the masons,bear in mind it was probably founded in Scotland as a brotherhood of stone workers,like a union i guess in a way.The same stonemasons would travel far and wide to build these marvels,at least one of them had knowledge of Maize.

I dont believe the stonemasons were anything like the secret society we hear of today , so in that i do not think Roslyn initially had anything to do with the masons,that came later.
Too many carvings fly in the face of all established religions in that country at that time making it difficult to know why they appear but when you consider the time span and consider some carvings might not be as old as others it becomes easier to understand.
The building perhaps simply changed with each new owner and set of workers.

So if i have a theory its that somebody in Scotland knew about Maize long before America was ever "discovered"

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

Surrounding a window are carvings of maize or Indian Corn <snip>

I take it that you also do not accept the explanation that it represents "stylized strawberries"? Which explanation IMHO is a little ridiculous, for whom has ever seen strawberries anything like that? thank you in advance,

NewtoPa wrote

So if i have a theory its that somebody in Scotland knew about Maize long before America was ever "discovered"

Thank you for explaining. I was unaware of the Green Man figure appearing anywhere in Rosslyn, quite a curious feature to include in a Christian church IMHO. There are more questions I would like to ask, but will refrain from testing the patience of our friends, and I don't wish to put you "on the spot" by opening the door for verbal attacks.
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

Oroblanco , i was raised in the shadow of Roslyn.Any theorys are welcome and enjoyed,i dont believe i deserve to come under fire for what is.
As for the green man..it appears more at Roslyn than anywhere else in europe.Not just once , something like 34 times i believe , i will check my facts as it could easily be more.
edited to add

Green Men

Green Man of the chapelAnother notable feature of Rosslyn's architecture is the presence of 'Green Men'. These are carvings of human faces with greenery all around them, often growing out of their mouths. They are commonly thought to be a symbol of rebirth or fertility, pre-Christian in origin. In Rosslyn they are found in all areas of the chapel, with one excellent example in the Lady Chapel, between the two middle altars of the east wall. The green men in Rosslyn symbolise the months of the year in progression from East to West in the Chapel. Young faces are seen in the East symbolising Spring and as we progress towards the setting sun in the West the carvings age as in Autumn of man's years. There are in excess of 110 carvings of Green men in and around the Chapel.

 

[JakefaePa]

Im not here to debate or argue , i said id share pictures, make of them what you will.I got my numbers wrong as i was doing my best to post some pictures before i went out tonight.
To be honest i begin to question the wisdom of posting here.Threads turn into personal beefs and i really can do without the circus and drama.

Edited to add , where i got the 200 from is Maize was not cultivated in europe until several hundred years after Roslyn was built.Like i say i was going out tonight and should have checked what id written.
As for the corn being stylised strawberries,wheat or anything but corn id say why are the other carvings not stylised?Why does a rose look like a rose , a thistle looks like a thistle , why is it just the maize thats stylised ?
These people were master stonemasons creating the finest architecture throughout Europe, are we to think they couldnt draw a strawberry ?
Ill post some of those rare photos tomorrow,i was below the chapel in the vault.Easier than it sounds..nobody stopped me or seemed to notice.
Gnite

 

[Smithbrown]

I think you are all getting a bit over-excited about the Green man; this is quite common in English churches; less common in Scottish churches, but the we reformers were rather more thorough in our destruction of Scottish medieval images than the English were.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man

Smithbrown

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

***** Newt, I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

I have seen other pictures of the "maize" in Roslyn, and can see where it resembles corn. Considering the artistic abilities of the stonemasons who worked on the chapel, you would think it would be unquestionable.....it is not.

Beyond that, why did they choose to make something that was unknown to the people, at large, part of their decorations? If they felt it was that important, why didn't they bring any corn back with them? Why are there no written documents describing the amazing crop that they found? The logic that the carvings depict corn escapes me. In fact, it is illogical.

Just my opinion.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[JakefaePa]

Thank you Real de Tayopa , theres more to come , the best ones i think.

Cactus jumper , thats a good point but for one slight detail , whos to say they didnt bring corn back ? It would never have grown in Scotland , it would fail to grow.

Theres a story of how the 1st St clair sailed to the Americas , no less worthy a legend than any other and here we see some form of inscription to support it.

Im out again tonight RDT , ill post pics this evening.

 

[cactusjumper]

Newt,

"Cactus jumper , thats a good point but for one slight detail , whos to say they didnt bring corn back ? It would never have grown in Scotland , it would fail to grow."

Sorry, I believe you are badly mistaken here. Corn grows quite well in Scotland, but as I understand it, they call it maize.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

SWR wrote

I just posted the picture and caption from the Rosslyn Chapel website. 50 years difference seems to be the theory...not 200

My apologies for assuming the words you posted were your own. (It was not clear to me.) Whether it is 50 years or 1000 or 1, should make no difference, the stone masons should not have had knowledge of American corn prior to 1492. What is your opinion as to what those carvings represent? Thank you in advance,

NewtoPa wrote

To be honest i begin to question the wisdom of posting here.Threads turn into personal beefs and i really can do without the circus and drama.

Edited to add , where i got the 200 from is Maize was not cultivated in europe until several hundred years after Roslyn was built.Like i say i was going out tonight and should have checked what id written.
As for the corn being stylised strawberries,wheat or anything but corn id say why are the other carvings not stylised?Why does a rose look like a rose , a thistle looks like a thistle , why is it just the maize thats stylised ?
These people were master stonemasons creating the finest architecture throughout Europe, are we to think they couldnt draw a strawberry ?
Ill post some of those rare photos tomorrow,i was below the chapel in the vault.Easier than it sounds..nobody stopped me or seemed to notice.

Please don't take offence at the banter that often arises among us here amigo, you are among friends and our discussions would be quite dull if we were all of a single opinion. As Cactusjumper says, some of the most interesting discussions are those with intelligent people whom we disagree with.

I have to agree with you, there is no reason why they should have stylized anything they were familiar with. One need only look at the many things they carved in excellent detail and true to life to see they were capable of reproducing reality. On the other hand, the "corn" is not a perfect illustration of American corn either - perhaps they were NOT totally familiar with it? Something they knew of from a (relatively) brief encounter? However if this were the case, why would they have included it at all? We are left wondering.
I look forward to seeing more of your excellent photos, and thank you again!

Cactusjumper wrote

Why are there no written documents describing the amazing crop that they found? The logic that the carvings depict corn escapes me. In fact, it is illogical.

Perhaps such a document does exist? The narrative of Nicolo Zeno, which some have proposed is a record of a voyage by Henry Sinclair to America. As Sinclair's voyage seems to have been kept (relatively) secret, there is no reason to expect we will find public chronicles describing in detail where he went and his activities. It is unlikely they got the knowledge from Norse contacts, as the areas visited by the Norse explorers and colonists were quite far north - too far north for growing corn.

Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Actually, corn wasn't known of in Europe until after 1492. Columbus DID bring back some new plants and animals, but please bear in mind that he never once set foot on the New World mainland, and corn does not grow natively in the Carribean. It wasn't until after the first Spanish expeditions into Mexico returned to Spain. That would have been around 1523 or thereabouts. And now, taking into consideration that products moved slowly throughout Europe, one could safely state that the New World corn was not introduced into the British Isles until around 1550.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote,

Columbus DID bring back some new plants and animals, but please bear in mind that he never once set foot on the New World mainland

I beg to differ my friend, and would point out that Columbus is believed to have landed in what is today Venezuela on his third voyage of exploration, (1502) as well as landing in what is today Nicaragua, either of which would be considered a part of the mainland New World. I am in agreement with the remainder of your statement.
Oroblanco