Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

[Highmountain]

One of the problems with the premise of the two being the same is the James Street/Nana at Ojo Caliente story 1870ish which is too early for the Nino Cochise account. Another's the recorded fact of Ammon Tenney Senior and his founding of Ramah Community up near Zuni and living at the Walnut Creek farm in Arizona in the 80s at which time Tenney Junior was still pretty young.

I've never chased down US Army records to find out where James Gray was during the 60s and 70s but Nino Cochise places him in Mexico at the same time as Street and Tenney, who couldn't have been there much earlier than the 80s, when Adams had been searching all over southwestern New Mexico for at least a decade and making it onto the radar screens.

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay' actually was used for two different mines and the coincidence of the names of the men involved being both places is where the mind-twister emerges, as you pointed out earlier.

But the time issue seems to me to make the two mutually exclusive whether or not either of them existed.

Jack

Yeah, those Mormons really confuse the issue, don't they? If it weren't for them, it would be much easier to assign 'Sno-Ta-Hay' as not a place name but merely a generic description of a placer deposit. This would allow both Nino's Sno-Ta-Hay and the Street/Nana Sno-Ta-Hay to coexist. This Mormon connection/coincidence somehow raises a bright red flag to me, but I haven't been able to grasp it yet. And we haven't even begun to discuss Adams himself, who seems to wear that red flag as clothing.

Springfield: Seems you and I are the only ones interested in pursuing the angles and threads of Adams / Toyopa / Sno ta hay / Mormons behind every tree in any sort of focused way [assuming you are].

Feel free to email me off-list if you want to kick it around more. There are a number of facets that didn't appear to be worth getting into in this setting and I expect you might have a few as well.

Jack

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[Springfield]

... Springfield: Seems you and I are the only ones interested in pursuing the angles and threads of Adams / Toyopa / Sno ta hay / Mormons behind every tree in any sort of focused way [assuming you are].

Feel free to email me off-list if you want to kick it around more. There are a number of facets that didn't appear to be worth getting into in this setting and I expect you might have a few as well.

Jack

Yeah, I'm interested. Must be force of habit I guess - I've already put a chunk of my life's enegy thinking about it with several viable working models but none to hang my hat on for certain. I know you measure your involvement by decades. If this topic was a criminal trial and all the facts were lined up, I'm not sure we'd have enough evidence for a conviction - hung jury probably. Something happened to spawn the LAD legend, but I'd be hard-pressed to bet on what it was. Give me a little time and I'll ferret out some old correspondence on the subject that will further muddy the waters for you and send it along.

[Highmountain]

... Springfield: Seems you and I are the only ones interested in pursuing the angles and threads of Adams / Toyopa / Sno ta hay / Mormons behind every tree in any sort of focused way [assuming you are].

Feel free to email me off-list if you want to kick it around more. There are a number of facets that didn't appear to be worth getting into in this setting and I expect you might have a few as well.

Jack

Yeah, I'm interested. Must be force of habit I guess - I've already put a chunk of my life's enegy thinking about it with several viable working models but none to hang my hat on for certain. I know you measure your involvement by decades. If this topic was a criminal trial and all the facts were lined up, I'm not sure we'd have enough evidence for a conviction - hung jury probably. Something happened to spawn the LAD legend, but I'd be hard-pressed to bet on what it was. Give me a little time and I'll ferret out some old correspondence on the subject that will further muddy the waters for you and send it along.

Springfield: I look forward to reading them. Anything that offers the potential of pulling some of the kinks of understanding out of it all will be supremely welcome.

Jack

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI PEEPS: One thing that I am "fairly " certain of is that it isn't Tayopa. There are a huge no of canyons which will equal the Grand Canyon from Tayopa to the Border, and perhaps 200 miles East and West, many of which still haven't been explored since the 1800's. Most would be in the Rio Yaqui drainage.

Since the US has been scoured in the suspected regions, it must lie southward into this unknown country.

I have ridden my mule in ths area without meeting another human for up to a month at a time.

These falls will give you an idea of the type of country there. This lies in Tayopa country

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI before anyone asks, no, they are not the falls described in the Apache thingie. SNO TA HA

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Cubfan64]

One of the problems with the premise of the two being the same is the James Street/Nana at Ojo Caliente story 1870ish which is too early for the Nino Cochise account. Another's the recorded fact of Ammon Tenney Senior and his founding of Ramah Community up near Zuni and living at the Walnut Creek farm in Arizona in the 80s at which time Tenney Junior was still pretty young.

I've never chased down US Army records to find out where James Gray was during the 60s and 70s but Nino Cochise places him in Mexico at the same time as Street and Tenney, who couldn't have been there much earlier than the 80s, when Adams had been searching all over southwestern New Mexico for at least a decade and making it onto the radar screens.

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay' actually was used for two different mines and the coincidence of the names of the men involved being both places is where the mind-twister emerges, as you pointed out earlier.

But the time issue seems to me to make the two mutually exclusive whether or not either of them existed.

Jack

Yeah, those Mormons really confuse the issue, don't they? If it weren't for them, it would be much easier to assign 'Sno-Ta-Hay' as not a place name but merely a generic description of a placer deposit. This would allow both Nino's Sno-Ta-Hay and the Street/Nana Sno-Ta-Hay to coexist. This Mormon connection/coincidence somehow raises a bright red flag to me, but I haven't been able to grasp it yet. And we haven't even begun to discuss Adams himself, who seems to wear that red flag as clothing.

Springfield: Seems you and I are the only ones interested in pursuing the angles and threads of Adams / Toyopa / Sno ta hay / Mormons behind every tree in any sort of focused way [assuming you are].

Feel free to email me off-list if you want to kick it around more. There are a number of facets that didn't appear to be worth getting into in this setting and I expect you might have a few as well.

Jack

I'm interested HM, I just don't have anything to really add to the conversation as I'm just not well informed on the stories.

[Cynangyl]

i will not repete my self or debate what the sno ta hay or Adams are or are not .. but ..

i can say without a reasonable dout what so ever the Tayopa mine is at site #4 , and yes we have made a postive ID of tayopa , 100% postve ....the site was chicomoztoc yet the jesuits renamed the tayopa and later when the mine workings were found no one knew what this site was and it was then called Sombrero mine ...waltz was just high gradeing the sombrero ...

so debate what those other places are ... the tayopa has been found and it will soon be made pubic ...we have 100% postive proff the tayopa bells were at one time at site #4 chicomoztoc

100% positive eh? Congrats then

Just how many of these are there?

[Cubfan64]

i will not repete my self or debate what the sno ta hay or Adams are or are not .. but ..

i can say without a reasonable dout what so ever the Tayopa mine is at site #4 , and yes we have made a postive ID of tayopa , 100% postve ....the site was chicomoztoc yet the jesuits renamed the tayopa and later when the mine workings were found no one knew what this site was and it was then called Sombrero mine ...waltz was just high gradeing the sombrero ...

so debate what those other places are ... the tayopa has been found and it will soon be made pubic ...we have 100% postive proff the tayopa bells were at one time at site #4 chicomoztoc

100% positive eh? Congrats then

Just how many of these are there?

Cyn - if we had $1 for every "100% positive," we'd probably have more money than Waltz ever had from his gold

I look forward to seeing it made public

[Springfield]

... I look forward to seeing it made public

Ha ha - good one, Cubbie.

[Cubfan64]

... I look forward to seeing it made public

Ha ha - good one, Cubbie.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see all of this stuff come to fruition. It would please me greatly to be able to say I was wrong and witness history made. That said however, I make a living forming hypotheses, testing them and evaluating the results in a scientific manner - I've seen very little of that here, so I'm not holding my breath.

Hopefully it will be made public before this fall when I plan to head back out to the Superstitions for some real exploring.

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

snicker, snicker, no comment needed. Tayopa eh?

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Highmountain]

Cubfan and Springfield: Thanks for the replies. Cubfan, your not being 'up on the stories' pretty well describes my own situation. A lot of my books are in storage, including the Nino book. I didn't have any copies of my own book around, so I was going from dim memory on a lot in some of my posts, things I hadn't read since the final manuscript went out.

Someone called me on the phone a few days ago and read me a number of passages from my own book and quotes from the Nino book that caused me to realize my memory had been faulty in a number of ways. For instance I'd been referring to Jame Chase as James Street. And I'd forgotten a lot about some things Nino said that didn't seem to pertain to the Adams back when I was reading him carefully. I'd also mistakenly remembered what passages and descriptions came from which account.

Judging from what I learned from my own book being read to me I'm going to have to go back and revisit the entire affair within my own notes and writings, [I dug out a copy of my original manuscript so's to give myself a head start] and re-read the Nino book. If I can't find mine I'll have to purchase another copy.

But I spent a lot of time comparing my manuscript with some things I recieved by email from another member, studying maps, and pondering yesterday. Fantastic as it might seem, there's a lot of merit to the proposition that the connection between the Nino account and the varous Adams et al accounts is an extremely complex set of codes [I honestly feel like an idiot even suggesting this] involving reversed directions and a lot of other weirdness I can't fathom at the moment.

I ain't understanding this at all.

Jack

[Cubfan64]

That is indeed weird! I will say I'm rather glad to hear of someone else's memory "going south" on them now and then - makes me feel less foolish

I know that I've started re-reading some of the books I have in regards to the Lost Dutchman mine. There's a great deal now that makes more sense to me after all the other things I've read in the last 2 years as well as my two trips out there - it makes it that much more valuable to read again. I have to do it slowly (and preferably somewhere I can concentrate) and take notes as I go along so I can keep the stories straight from the many different sources. I'm sure it's not that much different with the Lost Adams Diggings stories.

[Highmountain]

Thanks for the consolation Cubfan.

I'm not saying it gets any nearer whatever the truth of the Adams is, but it ties a lot of things together I'd always been puzzled by.

Tucson never worked too well as a starting place with all the other factors that are known thrown into the equation.

The fact those guys were obviously hiding some vital fact nobody's ever identified to my satisfaction also was troublesome.

The 'Mormon' connection.

An Adams and Brewer who enlisted in the California Volunteers the same day in California and were discharged the same day in 1866 in New Mexico has always been too much of a coincidence to ignore.

Brewer's statement in his account, "We were headed home" and knowing that, given his Mormonism, 'home' probably wasn't California.

The fact the alcalde at the village of his 'refuge' on the way back to the Rio Grande questioned him closely about the identity of the guide who'd been supposedly encountered in Tucson or the Pima Villages that might as well have been a thousand miles away has always aroused a suspicion something wasn't right. Leaves the impression the alcalde was entirely too curious about the identity of someone he almost certainly could never have known nor encountered if the other parts of where they picked up the guide were true.

The fact of Adams being in possession of those plow horses Brewer describes falls completely outside the realms of possibility for Tucson during those times, and the fact Adams went to such lengths to fabricate a story about how it all came to pass he was there and with the horses.

But all that makes a lot more sense and mostly even hangs together if considered from a different perspective entirely.

What's most confusing is that the Nino Cochise story almost seems to have, what ?, descendants ?, someone s connected to the original stories involved in the assembling of the Nino account in some poignant, explicit, and motivated ways for purposes I can't begin to imagine.

Jack

[cactusjumper]

If anyone, including Jack, has a specific question concerning Nino Cochise's accounts of Sno-Ta-Hae, I will be happy to answer with direct quotes from Nino's book. The historical errors begin on the first page, first paragraph of the prologue, and continue from there. My copy is signed by: "Chief Nino Cochise".

I looked into this matter some time ago as it relates to Tom Jeffords. Anyone who knows Apache history and customs will have serious doubt about the truthfulness of this entertaining book. I have mentioned the gold mine worked by the the offspring of Cochise on the LDM Forum, before.

I also have Jack's book, if anyone has questions about that.

Joe Ribaudo

[Cubfan64]

If anyone, including Jack, has a specific question concerning Nino Cochise's accounts of Sno-Ta-Hae, I will be happy to answer with direct quotes from Nino's book. The historical errors begin on the first page, first paragraph of the prologue, and continue from there. My copy is signed by: "Chief Nino Cochise".

I looked into this matter some time ago as it relates to Tom Jeffords. Anyone who knows Apache history and customs will have serious doubt about the truthfulness of this entertaining book. I have mentioned the gold mine worked by the the offspring of Cochise on the LDM Forum, before.

I also have Jack's book, if anyone has questions about that.

Joe Ribaudo

I don't doubt that there are historical "issues" with Nino's accounts - I haven't been interested enough yet (got too much else going on) to do more than a cursory glance at some things about him. There seems to be valid reasons presented for casting doubt as to who he really was and how much of what he said is true, however I'm not sure "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is the best way to deal with his accounts. As with most anything else "treasure" related, it's a matter of sorting through the chaff to find the wheat - in Nino Cochise's case, there may just be more chaff than typical - it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a grain of wheat in there somewhere worth it's weight in gold

All in all, I really don't have a dog in this race - it's interesting reading and discussion, but I think I'm already at the point where I'm spreading myself a little too thin. I'd rather focus on just a few issues at one time in the area I'm really interested in and try to do a great job on those, rather than do a so-so job on a bunch of things.

[Highmountain]

If anyone, including Jack, has a specific question concerning Nino Cochise's accounts of Sno-Ta-Hae, I will be happy to answer with direct quotes from Nino's book. The historical errors begin on the first page, first paragraph of the prologue, and continue from there. My copy is signed by: "Chief Nino Cochise".

I looked into this matter some time ago as it relates to Tom Jeffords. Anyone who knows Apache history and customs will have serious doubt about the truthfulness of this entertaining book. I have mentioned the gold mine worked by the the offspring of Cochise on the LDM Forum, before.

I also have Jack's book, if anyone has questions about that.

Joe Ribaudo

I don't doubt that there are historical "issues" with Nino's accounts - I haven't been interested enough yet (got too much else going on) to do more than a cursory glance at some things about him. There seems to be valid reasons presented for casting doubt as to who he really was and how much of what he said is true, however I'm not sure "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is the best way to deal with his accounts. As with most anything else "treasure" related, it's a matter of sorting through the chaff to find the wheat - in Nino Cochise's case, there may just be more chaff than typical - it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a grain of wheat in there somewhere worth it's weight in gold

All in all, I really don't have a dog in this race - it's interesting reading and discussion, but I think I'm already at the point where I'm spreading myself a little too thin. I'd rather focus on just a few issues at one time in the area I'm really interested in and try to do a great job on those, rather than do a so-so job on a bunch of things.

Hi Cubfan. Thanks for posting that quote. Got a chuckle out of me.

Sounds as though you're making a wise choice in your discernments. I think I'll leave the discussions of Sno ta hay, the Nino book, and my book to the 'Maiden Aunt Review Board' for the purposes of this thread.

If anyone wants to discuss any of the issues I started the thread with the intention of discussing feel free to PM or email me. If enough do I'll start an 'invitation only' group on the site where the 'Bloody Bill Anderson Study Group' resides so's the discussions can be kept a bit more focused.

Thanks for the laugh.

Jack

[cactusjumper]

Just to be clear, if possible........

"Cubfan and Springfield: Thanks for the replies. Cubfan, your not being 'up on the stories' pretty well describes my own situation. A lot of my books are in storage, including the Nino book. I didn't have any copies of my own book around, so I was going from dim memory on a lot in some of my posts, things I hadn't read since the final manuscript went out."

I have no doubt that Jack is the one to answer any questions, but since I have both books at hand, and don't have a massive ego getting in my way, I thought quoting from the two books might be the way to go, while Jack is getting the cobwebs cleared out.

I don't believe you can find a better book on the subject, than Jacks.

Personally, I don't know enough on the Lost Adams to have formed any kind of positive or negative opinion on it. On the other hand, I feel I know enough about the Apache to give an informed opinion on Nino's claims.
I suppose if I knew everything possible on the subject, I might also consider moving the conversation to a place where I could control who gets to provide comments and ideas. Probably best to keep the little people at bay.........and in their place.

Joe Ribaudo

[Oroblanco]

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Beth,

This year's Rendezvous will be held at the Don's Camp near the Quarter Circle-U Ranch. The dates are set for October 24th., 25th. and 26th. It's a wonderful location, and close to sixty or seventy people attended last year. Hopefully it will be even better this year.

I would love to see you and Beth attend this year. Last year I, along with a few others, managed to talk Paul into flying out from New Hampshire. The poor lad will never be the same, but that's a good thing. Many of the attendees are well versed in a variety of treasure legends, and I believe you and Beth would feel right at home.

The invitation is open to everyone who is interested. Jack Purcell would also be right at home. Carolyn and I will have plenty of coffee/water, and will provide one dinner and one breakfast for those who let us know in advance. Our shower and bathroom will be available for the ladies. I believe we will be doing Italian this year.

I know you two are very busy up there in the hinterlands, but you would probably return to your tasks with renewed vigor, and a healthy respect for the proficiency of Arizona liars. 8)

While at the Stoker Family Reunion last weekend, our Heidi fell into my mom's pool and drowned. We had left her here in Havasu with a family member, and got the call on Saturday. We are both still having a hard time with it. Knowing you went through the same thing not long ago, I know just how hard you were hit.

Take care,

Joe