Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

[Highmountain]

Good Morning Room: I was away on Tayopa business yesterday, so didn't post. I will list a few things that may throw a monkey wrench, or WD-40 into the pot, but just may be useful in the search for
SNO-TA-HAI.

A) There are / were many Apache living in Mexico, our surveyor is one.


B) A large, old mining camp called "PINOS ALTOS" that lies some 40 -,50 miles north east of Tayopa., in Chih.


C) I was told of the cave by a Apache. Well he IS part Apache, hehhe.


D) On the last trip to Tayopa, which was cut short, I was told of two dry placers nearby . The man that told me this had a cofffee jar full of hand picked nuggets that he had gathered by visual search. We are setting up a small group to go there in the next few months.


E) There are Mormon goups in the basic area, most notsbly at Cuatemoc Chih. Make wonderful Monterrey Jack cheese.


F) The Apache in Mexico were Mauraders, killing and stealing all over north western Mexcio. They were at constant war with all of the other sierra tribes and the Spanish.


G) The Yaqui drainage is north of Tayopa and located in country just as rough as the Mayo drainage. Another Grand Canyon competitor


H) South of Tayopa there is a huge natural cave which was origonally accesed by rope from the roof. Later a tunnel was driven to the outside in order to bring in suppolies. It apparently was a Gold mine / mines.

According to my Indian friends there are several houses constructed by the spanish still intact inside. There is a running stream of water which flows outside. Apparently when they left, they closed the tunnel with seven walls, it has since become known as the Mina de siete muras" "The mine of seven walls."

One of them found it and is willing to take me back there whenever I wish. He found it and removed 3 walls before he became "spooked".


I) To the west of Tayopa, at the foot of the Sierras in Sonora, is another canyon. The old goat skin map of the Guayajiros shows it as being the richest Gold placer in Sonora of that time - this map shows Tayopa also.


I) I will post many othe things that could be, in a broad sense, data on SNO TA HAI, if it existed. Unfortuately, there are things that I cannot post just yet, since they are part of an ongoing series of projects.

There are many excellelnt sites on the net on travesling old Mexico during this time.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose: Thanks for joining the fray. Looking forward to seeing more detail from you concerning all this.

Jack

 

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[BILL96]

jack,
Yes, if the book is true or not is not the question. My question was "true or not" how did those names get into that book and of all the things he could write about why put those people in the book? and did he know of their significance to the LAD?.
Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

"Anyone of a mind to discuss the nuances of the Nino Cochise tome and the Sno Ta Hay described there, and the identical one James Street wrote inside the back cover of his ledger at Ojo Caliente as described to him by Nana as being a relatively short distance away I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts."

I thought one of the "nuances of the Nino Cochise tome", would be the possibility that his entire background was a fabrication, and thus the "Sno Ta Hay" story would fall under, at least, the suspicion of more fiction.

My mistake, and I apologize for taking your topic off subject.

One of my favorite positions on this kind of thing, is that there is nothing positive to be gained in assuming a story is false. In that respect, I see your point.

"Without a dought the Nino Cochise book has more holes than good swiss cheese."

[Bill: It might. Or it might be the real item. Certainly it's something we'll each have to decide for ourselves.

But the object of discussion on this thread isn't whether it's true or false. That would be a valid discussion on another thread.

The purpose here is to discuss what, assuming it's true, the Nino Cochise account means as it pertains to Toyopa, the Adams Diggings, and everything else he told of related to gold and mines. If there's not a sufficient amount of interest in transcending the 'truth or fiction' side of Nino to consider it in more detail it's probably preferable to have this thread simply wither and fall off the bottom of the page than to have it bogged down in the usual quicksand of assertion/counter-assertions expounding the virtues or assassinating the character of Nino Cochise and A. Kinney Griffith.]

Thanks for the clarification on the focus of your original post. That keeps people like me.....on track.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Highmountain]

jack,
Yes, if the book is true or not is not the question. My question was "true or not" how did those names get into that book and of all the things he could write about why put those people in the book? and did he know of their significance to the LAD?.
Bill

Bill: No way anyone can know the answers to the questions you've asked. You already know what you believe about it, which renders the question either rhetorical, or merely an invitation for speculations.

I'd suggest you begin a thread about it, as I suggested earlier.

Jack

 

[Springfield]

... The purpose here is to discuss what, assuming it's true, the Nino Cochise account means as it pertains to Toyopa, the Adams Diggings, and everything else he told of related to gold and mines. .....
Gracias,
Jack

As it pertains to the Lost Adams Diggings, Nino's account (Sno-Ta-Hay, Brewer, Tenney) raises a strong possibility that what we've always assumed was located in Arizona/New Mexico was/is instead located in the Sierra Madre of Mexico somewhere near the Chihuahua/Sonora border. How this applies to Adams and his story is subject to speculation - was Adams misunderstood? Did he intentionally mislead? Was there ever a LAD to begin with? The related question of the Shaeffer Diggings, Lost Canyon Diggings, Snively Diggings, Nigger Diggings, etc., often identified as one and the same as the LAD, may actually fall into a completely different catagory. Maybe this is why the versions of the LAD are so many and so conflicting with eachother.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield - I just printed out what you wrote above. It's something I will definitely refer to now and again to put everything into perspective for me as I spend time researching things - especially historical events and "treasure" related stories and legends.

Your statements above are very impressive and have a real air of common sense associated with them as well. If you don't mind me asking - what is your background and profession?

Well, thanks for the compliment, but I'm just a guy with a keen curiosity. I also believe that most of what we're taught is disinformation designed to benefit the few at the expense of the many.

 

[Highmountain]

... The purpose here is to discuss what, assuming it's true, the Nino Cochise account means as it pertains to Toyopa, the Adams Diggings, and everything else he told of related to gold and mines. .....
Gracias,
Jack

As it pertains to the Lost Adams Diggings, Nino's account (Sno-Ta-Hay, Brewer, Tenney) raises a strong possibility that what we've always assumed was located in Arizona/New Mexico was/is instead located in the Sierra Madre of Mexico somewhere near the Chihuahua/Sonora border. How this applies to Adams and his story is subject to speculation - was Adams misunderstood? Did he intentionally mislead? Was there ever a LAD to begin with? The related question of the Shaeffer Diggings, Lost Canyon Diggings, Snively Diggings, people Diggings, etc., often identified as one and the same as the LAD, may actually fall into a completely different catagory. Maybe this is why the versions of the LAD are so many and so conflicting with eachother.

Springfield: Thanks for the reply. I was sort of hoping someone besides me would post that possibility [thought it would probably be Jose de La Mancha].

I'd say the possibility is there and is almost inevitable as one to be considered within the mix of other scenarios if the Nino Cochise account is assumed to be truthful.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

TAG – strike that - oh heck it was supposed to be just a tag post, but I can’t resist this:

Cactusjumper wrote:

I posted this earlier, but it went to live with Jesus

ROFLMAO
Joe, that one very nearly caused me to become a spontaneous nose-fountain of coffee. I have to remember that one, for I think that a great many things I posted have also gone to live with Jesus – or perhaps they went the other direction to exist with Belial! (hee hee)

Oroblanco

"We learn from the false as well as from the true." --Solomon

 

[Old Dog]

Tag...LOL

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Should you find the place where your posts went, would you mind looking around to see if any of my socks are there? Thanks.

["We learn from the false as well as from the true." --Solomon]

That is a very wise quote, especially when you consider the tenor of many of the stories that are passed along here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

LOL I will probably be looking for something to protect my feet from the burning fire and brimstone, so a couple of socks might come in handy!

To justify my off-topic post, what about the facts of Nino Cochise as a human statistic? Anyone have the pertinent data about where he went to school, marriages/divorces, proven places of residence and dates etc? While this information is peripheral in nature, it might either support or cast doubts on some of the statements of Nino C. Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I posted some of those answers in a previous quote:

"That didn't prevent the more enterprising from inventing sons. One of the most convincing pretenders (to whites, anyway) was a man calling himself Niño Cochise. He published two conflicting versions of his story, both challenged by Apaches and historians. In a magazine article, he alleged that in 1873, Cochise's oldest son, Taza, married and in 1874 had a son, Niño, in the Cochise Stronghold of Arizona Territory. After Taza died, his wife and son fled to Mexico, where they remained unknown and uncounted by reservation agents. They returned to the United States when Niño was twelve, and he attended Carlisle Indian School, Haskell Institute, and the University of Washington, where he majored in journalism and English. He also claimed to have toured Europe with Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show and served with the French Air Force. By 1957, Niño was a writer living near Hollywood in the summer and southern Arizona in the winter.' In his book he spun an entertaining tale of his life in the wild and told of going to Hollywood in the 1920s, where he became a movie set extra. He opened a western museum in Phoenix briefly, worked for defense contractors during ' World War II, and flew for a crop duster."

If you are interested in the man's history, according to him, you should read his book. I have a signed copy, but you can find many less expensive choices. It's an entertaining read and he is obviously very intelligent.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you for the suggestion amigo, I will have to add it to my request list at our local library (they limit interlibrary loans to two per month unfortunately) and for pointing out that some of the info on his life is already posted; this paints a partial picture, but does still leave some voids.

I don't know what to make of Nino Cochise; have not read his book, and with such disparate reviews am not sure what to expect.
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

... The purpose here is to discuss what, assuming it's true, the Nino Cochise account means as it pertains to Toyopa, the Adams Diggings, and everything else he told of related to gold and mines. .....
Gracias,
Jack

As it pertains to the Lost Adams Diggings, Nino's account (Sno-Ta-Hay, Brewer, Tenney) raises a strong possibility that what we've always assumed was located in Arizona/New Mexico was/is instead located in the Sierra Madre of Mexico somewhere near the Chihuahua/Sonora border. How this applies to Adams and his story is subject to speculation - was Adams misunderstood? Did he intentionally mislead? Was there ever a LAD to begin with? The related question of the Shaeffer Diggings, Lost Canyon Diggings, Snively Diggings, people Diggings, etc., often identified as one and the same as the LAD, may actually fall into a completely different catagory. Maybe this is why the versions of the LAD are so many and so conflicting with eachother.

One of the problems with the premise of the two being the same is the James Street/Nana at Ojo Caliente story 1870ish which is too early for the Nino Cochise account. Another's the recorded fact of Ammon Tenney Senior and his founding of Ramah Community up near Zuni and living at the Walnut Creek farm in Arizona in the 80s at which time Tenney Junior was still pretty young.

I've never chased down US Army records to find out where James Gray was during the 60s and 70s but Nino Cochise places him in Mexico at the same time as Street and Tenney, who couldn't have been there much earlier than the 80s, when Adams had been searching all over southwestern New Mexico for at least a decade and making it onto the radar screens.

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay' actually was used for two different mines and the coincidence of the names of the men involved being both places is where the mind-twister emerges, as you pointed out earlier.

But the time issue seems to me to make the two mutually exclusive whether or not either of them existed.

Jack

 

[Springfield]

One of the problems with the premise of the two being the same is the James Street/Nana at Ojo Caliente story 1870ish which is too early for the Nino Cochise account. Another's the recorded fact of Ammon Tenney Senior and his founding of Ramah Community up near Zuni and living at the Walnut Creek farm in Arizona in the 80s at which time Tenney Junior was still pretty young.

I've never chased down US Army records to find out where James Gray was during the 60s and 70s but Nino Cochise places him in Mexico at the same time as Street and Tenney, who couldn't have been there much earlier than the 80s, when Adams had been searching all over southwestern New Mexico for at least a decade and making it onto the radar screens.

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay' actually was used for two different mines and the coincidence of the names of the men involved being both places is where the mind-twister emerges, as you pointed out earlier.

But the time issue seems to me to make the two mutually exclusive whether or not either of them existed.

Jack

Yeah, those Mormons really confuse the issue, don't they? If it weren't for them, it would be much easier to assign 'Sno-Ta-Hay' as not a place name but merely a generic description of a placer deposit. This would allow both Nino's Sno-Ta-Hay and the Street/Nana Sno-Ta-Hay to coexist. This Mormon connection/coincidence somehow raises a bright red flag to me, but I haven't been able to grasp it yet. And we haven't even begun to discuss Adams himself, who seems to wear that red flag as clothing.

 

[Highmountain]

One of the problems with the premise of the two being the same is the James Street/Nana at Ojo Caliente story 1870ish which is too early for the Nino Cochise account. Another's the recorded fact of Ammon Tenney Senior and his founding of Ramah Community up near Zuni and living at the Walnut Creek farm in Arizona in the 80s at which time Tenney Junior was still pretty young.

I've never chased down US Army records to find out where James Gray was during the 60s and 70s but Nino Cochise places him in Mexico at the same time as Street and Tenney, who couldn't have been there much earlier than the 80s, when Adams had been searching all over southwestern New Mexico for at least a decade and making it onto the radar screens.

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay' actually was used for two different mines and the coincidence of the names of the men involved being both places is where the mind-twister emerges, as you pointed out earlier.

But the time issue seems to me to make the two mutually exclusive whether or not either of them existed.

Jack

Yeah, those Mormons really confuse the issue, don't they? If it weren't for them, it would be much easier to assign 'Sno-Ta-Hay' as not a place name but merely a generic description of a placer deposit. This would allow both Nino's Sno-Ta-Hay and the Street/Nana Sno-Ta-Hay to coexist. This Mormon connection/coincidence somehow raises a bright red flag to me, but I haven't been able to grasp it yet. And we haven't even begun to discuss Adams himself, who seems to wear that red flag as clothing.

Pure fact. Old Adams was a weird one. If it hadn't been for Brewer I'd have discounted him and his stories out of hand once I dug past Dobie. But whatever he was he obviously believed he'd found something good enough to spend a decade or so looking hard for it. So far as I was able to tell the earliest trip he ever made searching for it was 1874 at Horse Springs and spent a couple of years working the area around Apache Peak part of the time, then down on the south side of the San Augustine Plains the remainder.

The sequence of his searches are something of a mystery after that, but I think the long search he took with Williams and Shaw to the upper Gila, then all over the area west of the AZ boundary north to Santa Rita Mesa must have been a trip or three later, maybe with the Washie Jones piece in-between somewhere.

I think it's pretty clear what sort of country he was looking for just judging by what kind of places he spent a lot of time looking in, and which ones he rejected, sometimes with a glance. For instance, he evidently was drawn to Santa Rita because he heard of the two points on the north side of Jaralosa Canyon, but once he saw them and the country around them he didn't waste anytime getting out of there and going south and east. [Took me about 18 months to draw the same conclusion but I'm stupid that way sometimes].

But he was more a mystery man than Nino Cochise by several orders of magnitude, and Shaw wasn't a lot less so. Both of those guys had more pasts than an honest person usually needs to get by in life, though Adams was always closed-mouthed about his anytime before the freighting operation that never existed hauling freight through Arizona when everything supposedly began.

More red flags than there are poles to hang them on.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning my Friend HIGH: you posted --->

Thanks for the reply. I was sort of hoping someone besides me would post that possibility [thought it would probably be Jose de La Mancha
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frankly the thought had never occur ed to me so I was giving it some second thought. There does seem to be a thread in there.

In another deep canyon across the Rio Mayo, NE of Tayopa, there is a zone where the Indians are getting coarse gold, The Baconya. I believe that a mining co has recently opened a road to near there. could this be ---?
*************************************************************************************
Jack, you also posted -->

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A fascinating thought occurred to me with this statement, could it be an Indian corruption of basic Spanish?

"no se hay" could actually mean a corrupted version of "there is nothing to it"?? An ironic joke to hide something else, say Tayopa ? heheheheh.

K, have wor-- cut out for me.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

Good morning my Friend HIGH: you posted --->

Thanks for the reply. I was sort of hoping someone besides me would post that possibility [thought it would probably be Jose de La Mancha
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frankly the thought had never occur ed to me so I was giving it some second thought. There does seem to be a thread in there.

In another deep canyon across the Rio Mayo, NE of Tayopa, there is a zone where the Indians are getting coarse gold, The Baconya. I believe that a mining co has recently opened a road to near there. could this be ---?
*************************************************************************************
Jack, you also posted -->

The other possibility is that the word 'Sno ta hay'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A fascinating thought occurred to me with this statement, could it be an Indian corruption of basic Spanish?

"no se hay" could actually mean a corrupted version of "there is nothing to it"?? An ironic joke to hide something else, say Tayopa ? heheheheh.

K, have wor-- cut out for me.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Consider the pronunciation of 'hay' in no se hay, then the pronunciation of the hay in, say, "Ya ta hay".

Probably that would be more corrupting than people who speak spoken words as opposed to written ones could stretch to fit.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: "H" is silent in Spanish pron. hence "ay" and "ai" are pronounced the same. Not sure where this leads to, but since conventional ideas and investigations have failed so far, let's go exploring without previous ideas misleading us..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

HI: "H" is silent in Spanish pron. hence "ay" and "ai" are pronounced the same. Not sure where this leads to, but since conventional ideas and investigations have failed so far, let's go exploring without previous ideas misleading us..

Don Jose de La Mancha

As you indicate, there's no similarity between pronounciation of the word 'hay' in Spanish and the word 'hay' in the Apache languages.

Not sure where this leads to, but since conventional ideas and investigations have failed so far, let's go exploring without previous ideas misleading us..

Makes sense. Since there's also nothing in common between Sno ta hay and 'goddammes', the word the Apache used to describe miners, maybe that's what Sno ta hay means. A corruption of the word 'goddammes' and it's referring to gold miners.

Good idea Jose.

Jack