[SOLVED] Caltrops that arent caltrops .. Caltrops that arent Jacks .. "Caltrops That Arent"
Welcome guest, is this your first visit?
Member
Discoveries
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18
Like Tree8Likes

Thread: Caltrops that arent caltrops .. Caltrops that arent Jacks .. "Caltrops That Arent"

« Prev Thread | Next Thread »
  1. #1

    Caltrops that aren't caltrops .. Caltrops that aren't Jacks .. "Caltrops That Aren't"

    For many years, these things have been identified as caltrops ... they have been identified as jacks .. they have been identified as tumbler media .. They have been identified as jackstones.
    Many posts about these things have been posted right here on the What Is It Forum, and their use has been debated over and over again. I won't go through all the related threads, but if you search for "caltrop" you will discover quite a few debates. I have participated in many myself. This is the item I am talking about:



    For years I have searched for their true identity, and this evening, I think I have found just that. If not, it certainly is another factor to throw into the equation. These pieces are (or could be) part of a 19th century "Serpent and Star" puzzle as shown here:
    -

    -

    -


    I hope this post will be helpful in the debate on these caltrops that aren't caltrops.
    “It is best as one grows older to strip oneself of possessions, to shed oneself downward like a tree, to be almost wholly earth before one dies.”

  2. #2
    Educator

    Feb 2006
    Occupied CSA (Richmond VA)
    White's 6000, Nautilus DMC-1, Minelab
    5,719
    8752 times
    Relic Hunting
    I think it's very important to note that the one from the "Serpent & Star" puzzle in the posted photos is made of ("pink") copper. The iron ones are definitely Tumbler-Media from the Metalcasting/Metalfinishing industry. As I've mentioned in past posts, I found a diagram showing them in an old Encyclopedia Of Metalcasting (but I lost the link to that online book when my computer's hard-drive crashed and couldn't be restored). Also, a fellow T-Netter (named "fmerg") spoke up and said he'd seen them when he worked in that industry. See his reply, which is post #10 in this discussion: Trying to find out what it is

    Specifically, fmerg said "I remember seeing some thing like these used in tumblers to knock off large pieces of slag when I worked in a machine shop they were magnetic and used in a tumbler."

  3. #3
    us
    IYAOYAS

    Jun 2013
    Mount pleasnt, PA
    minelab x-terra 505, fisher F2,Garrett Ace 350
    165
    42 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Imagine how loud a tumbler full of those would be lol.
    You never know what it is till you dig it.

  4. #4
    Educator

    Feb 2006
    Occupied CSA (Richmond VA)
    White's 6000, Nautilus DMC-1, Minelab
    5,719
    8752 times
    Relic Hunting
    See US Patent #3383113 (Filed on Feb. 16, 1965 and granted on May 14, 1968).
    http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat003383113.pdf
    The key to the puzzle is that one of the star's six arms (or "points") is shorter than the others.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCannonballGuy View Post
    I think it's very important to note that the one from the "Serpent & Star" puzzle in the posted photos is made of ("pink") copper. The iron ones are definitely Tumbler-Media from the Metalcasting/Metalfinishing industry. As I've mentioned in past posts, I found a diagram showing them in an old Encyclopedia Of Metalcasting (but I lost the link to that online book when my computer's hard-drive crashed and couldn't be restored). Also, a fellow T-Netter (named "fmerg") spoke up and said he'd seen them when he worked in that industry. See his reply, which is post #10 in this discussion: Trying to find out what it is



    Specifically, fmerg said "I remember seeing some thing like these used in tumblers to knock off large pieces of slag when I worked in a machine shop they were magnetic and used in a tumbler."
    I am curious about that , Pete. Assuming these were made of iron, and assuming that they were magnetic as stated, how would they work in a tumbling application. It seems to me that if they were magnetic as stated, they would cluster together in a blob and become ineffective. Additionally, I am curious what the castings were made of that were put into the tumblers along with these things? If it was anything softer than the iron, these things would beat the daylights out of the softer metals, wouldn't they? If the cast items were say, cast iron, and put in with these magnetic stars, wouldn't the stars stick to the cast iron pieces rendering them ineffective?

    Also, I am not sure what the original Serpent & Star puzzles were made out of, but their origins apparently stem from 19th century Britain.
    “It is best as one grows older to strip oneself of possessions, to shed oneself downward like a tree, to be almost wholly earth before one dies.”

  6. #6
    Educator

    Feb 2006
    Occupied CSA (Richmond VA)
    White's 6000, Nautilus DMC-1, Minelab
    5,719
    8752 times
    Relic Hunting
    I already asked Fmerg for details, in a private message. By "magnetic" he meant they these Mill-Stars are made of iron/steel. You'd use a magnet to retreive them out of the loose material in the tumbler-mill when the stars' work was completed.

    Your guess is correct... iron ones are used to clean iron/steel castings. Softer-metal stars, like the brass ones, are used to clean brass objects.

    Explanation:
    When a cast metal object comes out of the mold, it typically has bits of moldcasting sand (from the sand-mold), "flashing" (slivers of metal which extended into the seam between the mold's two halves), and burrs and "slag" (resulting from some of the molten metal fusing with the casting sand) on its body. You can either very laboriously clean all those imperfections off of each casting... or you can dump a bunch of castings into a Tumbler-Mill (basiclaly, a barrel which rotates on its axis, like a barrel rolling downhill) along with a bunch of these Mill-Stars (which are a variety of Tumbler-Media), and set it to rotating. As the tumblermill's barrel rotates, its contents continually tumble onto each other. The points of the stars batter off the surface imperfections and casting-sand remnants on the body of the castings. The points also reach into inverse angles and other recesses on the castings. When the cleaning is completed, your remove the castings from the tumbler-mill, and then instead of having to dig through the sand, burrs, and slag, you use a magnet on a stick to retrieve the Mill-Stars.

    We're now seeing a lot of "surplus" iron Mill-Stars turning up because of the advent of superior Ceramic tumbler-Media. Also, there's not as much ironcasting going on in American Industry as there used to be, because businesses can get it done more cheaply in foreign countries, such as Mexico.

    A related example of "surplus" Mill-Stars is the sale of them as Jacks (for the children's game Balls-&-Jacks) during the 1930s Great Depression. Lots of casting-foundries went out of business, and somebody figured out a way to turn the un-needed Mill-Stars into money. As I mentioned in a previous post, a seller of antique toys & games on Ebay had an Original cloth bag marked "Arcade [brand] Jacks" -- it contained a mix of Mill-Stars and the usual Jacks from that game.
    Last edited by TheCannonballGuy; Jul 15, 2013 at 07:56 PM. Reason: A clarification, and some typo-error corrections.
    kuger and deldave like this.

  7. #7
    us
    Jul 2013
    coastal Delaware
    Garrett AT PRO, ACE 250, pro-pointer
    164
    289 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    After further research and measurements if have concluded this item to be part of the serpent and star puzzle as described by Creskol. Subtle differences in the size of the six seemingly equal points in a casting that could have been made perfectly equal are the clincher in my book. The material is (as described) non-magnetic and could be a variety of alloys. The depth and patina have me believing it could be 19th century but that is not as important as knowing what it is. I am ordering a new puzzle and will keep them together as a set. I will not try to remove the star from the serpent because that must have been what happened to the owner of the original since I never found the serpent part. I have marked as "solved" and now may rest...............thanks again, dave

  8. #8
    gr
    Nov 2010
    930
    509 times
    Good detective work there Creskol!

  9. #9

    Dec 2003
    Western Schuylkill County
    MINELAB EXPLORER SE PRO ....... Garrett Pro Pointer…… Sovereign XS-2 Pro
    69,224
    34594 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Honorable Mentions (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by deldave View Post
    I have marked as "solved" and now may rest...............thanks again, dave
    out of Curiosity ? How did you mark it Solved ?

  10. #10
    us
    Jul 2013
    coastal Delaware
    Garrett AT PRO, ACE 250, pro-pointer
    164
    289 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Click on above tool bar "thread tools" and select "solved"

  11. #11
    us
    Jul 2013
    coastal Delaware
    Garrett AT PRO, ACE 250, pro-pointer
    164
    289 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    I just noticed Schuykill , Co. I lived near a town called Auburn back in 1980. I worked in a 2 man sawmill one winter in the Blue Mtns. I think the property is now some kind of ski resort.
    jeff of pa likes this.

  12. #12

    Dec 2003
    Western Schuylkill County
    MINELAB EXPLORER SE PRO ....... Garrett Pro Pointer…… Sovereign XS-2 Pro
    69,224
    34594 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Honorable Mentions (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by deldave View Post
    I just noticed Schuykill , Co. I lived near a town called Auburn back in 1980. I worked in a 2 man sawmill one winter in the Blue Mtns. I think the property is now some kind of ski resort.
    Auburn about 20 Minutes from me.

    No idea on the ski resort / 2 man sawmill, I'm taking it, this was south side of the Blue
    Only ski resort in Schuylkill, I'm familiar with was in pottsville & short Lived
    Late 60's & not on the Blue.

    There was one South of Bethel (Berks County) but I forget the name
    Last edited by jeff of pa; Jul 16, 2013 at 07:24 PM.

  13. #13

    Dec 2003
    Western Schuylkill County
    MINELAB EXPLORER SE PRO ....... Garrett Pro Pointer…… Sovereign XS-2 Pro
    69,224
    34594 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Honorable Mentions (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by deldave View Post
    Click on above tool bar "thread tools" and select "solved"
    OK Thanks !,

    I'm looking into this because only ones who should declare a thread solved, should be the OP
    or the Mods, & in reality, I prefer the OP do it & only when they are Satisfied
    they got all their questions answered

  14. #14
    Charter Member
    um
    Jul 2004
    South Florida Cesspool
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Whites M6
    17,719
    9878 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Good thread!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff of pa View Post
    OK Thanks !,

    I'm looking into this because only ones who should declare a thread solved, should be the OP
    or the Mods, & in reality, I prefer the OP do it & only when they are Satisfied
    they got all their questions answered
    I didn't even know that marking someone else's thread solved was a possibility ... ahh .. what potential!
    “It is best as one grows older to strip oneself of possessions, to shed oneself downward like a tree, to be almost wholly earth before one dies.”

 

 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Home | Forum | Active Topics | What's New

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 25
    Last Post: Jan 07, 2013, 11:17 PM
  2. My first "those coins arent silver..."
    By FormerTeller in forum Coin Roll Hunting
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jun 30, 2011, 09:44 AM
  3. Caltrops, wish list finds...
    By Bavaria Mike in forum Today's Finds!
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Mar 31, 2011, 09:52 PM
  4. Caltrops / Cripplers
    By JARMAN in forum What Is It?
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: Mar 03, 2008, 02:41 AM
  5. Civil War Caltrops
    By Elvis in forum Military / Battlefield Relics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Feb 27, 2008, 01:45 PM

Search tags for this page

caltrops
,

caltrops for sale

,

caltrops forum

,
deldave2 ebay
,
full sized caltrops for sale
,
jacks caltrops
,
jumping jacks as caltrops
,
jumping jacks metallic small caltrops
,
military caltrops for sale
,
surplus caltrops
Click on a term to search for related topics.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.3.0