12 SPIKED/ABANDONDED NEAR CHAMPION HILL MISSISSIPPI PLUS 5000-8000 SMALL ARMS

[gldhntr]

Confederate major general william lorings division abandonded these while attempting to help out pemberton....they were traveling along bakers creek...they went from starting point near 12 miles before turning around and going back around 8 miles....in two areas between 4 miles out and 12 miles out they spiked 12 cannon and abandonded them in a swamp and left between 5000-8000 small arms/ammo/etc in the bed of a deep creek there......one could pinpoint these two areas fairly easy by reading the article/diaries/records as they all point to near exact timelines along route of the leaving of both the spiked cannon and the hiding of the arms............this info from civil war times newest issue.....resource listed as ''champion hill, decisive battle for vicksburg'' by timothy b smith and the ''fremantle diary'', being the journal of col arthur lyon fremantle, coldstream guards, on his 3 months in the southern states.....more, including several diaries, books, and official records of the battles/skirmishes in the area at www.battleofchampionhill.org

 

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[Montana Jim]

12 cannons in a creek with associated ammo would be the find of the decade!

 

[gldhntr]

the cannon were spiked/abandoned in a swampy area.....the small arms/ammo/etc were cached seperatly, in the bed of a creek..........and yes it would.............!!!!!!

 

[Shortstack]

Loring was ordered to fight a holding action while other units crossed Bakers Creek, moving west to meet at the Big Black River bridge. By the time the other units made it across Bakers Creek, the waters had risen too high for Loring to cross his unit. It had been raining hard and the creek flooded.

After moving southwesterly along the creek, looking for a place to cross, then finding his way across 14 Mile Creek also blocked, he ordered his men to abandon all unnecessary equipment. Then, he set course through the Union lines and forced marched to Crystal Springs where he allowed his men to rest for only a couple of hours before moving north along the railroad line to Old Byram where they crossed the Pearl River and kept going north until they crossed into Jackson, just before the final Battle of Jackson when all CSA troops pulled out and left the area to the Yankees.

 

[gldhntr]

right....but this was quite a bit after the cannon had been spiked/abandonded, along this 12 mile stretch.....the info is in the diaries concerning the cannon........also in the official reports i think..

 

[Shortstack]

The part that may be an inflated figure is the 5000 to 6000 small arms. That's too many for Loring's unit and the men didn't throw away their own weapons. They weren't from the supply train either, because the CSA supply train left the Champion Hill area by the north crossing on Bakers Creek, headed west by a northern route (north of present day I-20. That supply train met the rest of the CSA at Big Black and was sent on to Vicksburg.

I also thought 12 cannon was too many for his unit until I remembered that Tilghman's artillery unit was attached to Loring for the delaying action. I'm planning to get a copy of an unpublished manuscript written by a company commander of one of Loring's companies. The state archives has a copy in their records.

I have a copy of the OR's but the specific number of abandoned cannon and small arms isn't specified. At least, in the after action reports I've read so far.

 

[gldhntr]

according to the reports listed under the link i provided loring started out this short march with around 8000 men and ended it with around 5000....hence my estimate on the number of small arms...being as they were leaving them due to trouble carrying through swamps/thickets/etc, and were ordered to abandon ALL small arms and unneeded eq i would presume most did as ordered {although i myself would rather carry mine in such circumstances}.....the number of cannon is described in one of the papers listed on the link i provided.........either way, the locating of any part of this would be quite a discovery whether it be 1 or 12 cannon or just a couple long guns in my opinion, which may not be seen as much........i further would think that with such a short march, {12 miles out and back along same route more or less} detailed as it is in the diaries and records provided on the link i posted, a dedicated searcher would be able to locate one or the other of these caches {or both} in a relativly short order..................gldhntr

 

[Shortstack]

Your sure are right about finding just one item. That would make my whole day, week, month, etc. The problem that inflation can cause in reporting things like this is that everybody has a different estimate. It's definitely enough just knowing that a bunch of equipment was abandoned.

I came across this report for the first time in a book called "Going to Meet the Yankees", by Howell. He is the source of my info on Loring force marching to Crystal Springs; then to Jackson. Howell is also the source for learning about that unpublished manuscript written by a company commander under Loring's command.

Loring's men were in pretty bad shape on that march. Howell tells how their need for drinking water was made worse by some folks along the way contaminating their own well water so the soldiers couldn't drink from them. When they arrived in Crystal Springs, the line of troops was strung out for a long way. After closing up, the men were so tired that they reportedly just lay down on both sides of the road and slept until rousted up to move north to Jackson.

Back to the abandoned equipment; all of that land involved in this story is under private ownership. The historical society has placed placards at strategic places in the battle area, but all of the property is privately owned. The Champion Hill battle site is still in the hands of the direct descendant of the original family. His name, I believe, is Sid Champion III. He's recently started providing walking tours of the battle site and is hoping to generate enough funds to rebuild / restore the original church.

I recently found out that the company my sister works for owns a large tract of land in the battle area and has allowed relic hunters to hunt there. Nope, haven't set anything up yet. One thing is definite; that hunt will be best done in the wintertime because we're talking "snake country". And, not just any snake---water moccasins to be specific. Ain't no meaner snake alive that a cottonmouth moccasin. They are born with a bad attitude that gets worse as they age. They will NOT give way to humans; especially if they're on the hunt for food.

 

[Montana Jim]

Although the caching of these weapons would have been a matter of record, possibly - not so the recovery of them after the war (or after they were abandoned).

It is my opinion after studying NONE of this event that the stuff would have been quickly recovered or liberated by someone very soon after it was left! I'm thinking a lot of folks knew it was left, someone went and grabbed it without talking.

It's the only reason nothing has been discovered or found since.

What do you think?

 

[truckinbutch]

Although the caching of these weapons would have been a matter of record, possibly - not so the recovery of them after the war (or after they were abandoned).

It is my opinion after studying NONE of this event that the stuff would have been quickly recovered or liberated by someone very soon after it was left! I'm thinking a lot of folks knew it was left, someone went and grabbed it without talking.

It's the only reason nothing has been discovered or found since.

What do you think?

I think that is an extremely valid theory . When Confederate raiders swept through our area there were vague documented reports of minor engagements made by officers of both sides .
History of actual looting and pillaging in the area has been an oral tradition passed through families over the years .

 

[gldhntr]

my opinions on a couple things....one being in reference to shortstacks post saying that alot of this property is private...that is a good thing as that means there is the possibility of obtaining permission...most locations such as this are now parkland of some sort and usually no chance of a legal search.......
in reference to montana jims opinions regarding these caches....yes it is a very valid theory...i am quite certain that a large number of these type caches were relocated by the original cachers at some point....same as i am sure some caches of the like were purposly cached for the sole intent of another group immediatly coming to retrieve the booty/weapons/whatever....but then again, modern day hunters making public the findings of such type caches are what helps keep the hobby of treasure hunting so interesting...my own research into a fellows locating a number of cached civil war cannon and arms in the late 1970s very near my house makes me think that there is a chance its still there..during this research, locating the info that the cacher, was ordered to this exact area to perform a certain duty, upon arriving saw many civilians taking everything there they could, yet they paid no attention to the guns/cannon nor the ammo except for some gun powder, would tend to make one think these items were seen as useless and again, make me think there is a chance for recoveries of this type yet today.............,,.the late 1940s newspaper article concerning the replacement of a railroad trestle , again, near my house, and the story it related as to the workers there finding hundreds of small arms, cannon balls, etc from the civil war in the mud beneath knee deep water directly beside the tracks, and my further research into it showing these items as hidden/abandonded in the creek due to the track being out a bit further on and no one knew what else to do with it but hide it as close as they could get it to where it was intended to be delivered, makes me think there is always a possibility of it being there...........
if all treasures were redug by the cachers there would be no hobby of treasure hunting....thinking much on this type theory would pretty much start to sink in, especially after a few search and no recover missions and we would all find ourselves hunting wabbit or watching tv instead of doing what we enjoy most....me, i'll keep on researching and hunting..treasures.....find em or not it still beats playing the lottery...........gldhntr

 

[Shortstack]

Keep in mind that this equipment was abandoned in the immediate area of a rain-swollen creek in "bottomland" farm area. I would imagine that the equipment was thrown into the creek water in an attempt to prevent the stuff from falling into the hands of the Union troops. The Union lines were so close that Loring's troops had to be extra cautious in their movements to the east. The O.R.'s tell us that when the CSA folks sneaked through the Union lines during the night, they were so close they could smell the campfires and see the enemy moving about the fires. It is amazing that a group as large as Loring's could be that quiet, but they were.

One of my ex-wife's uncles told me about how he and his buddies used to fish and swim in the Big Black River when they were in their teens. He showed me the site that was a pecan orchard on the river, owned by some family friends. According to him, they found several cannons in the river lying on a rock shelf about 15 feet under water. When I asked him if they or anyone they knew ever recovered them and he said "No, no one was really interested in that kind of stuff back then." I'm a little bit leery of his story because when the area goes a while without rain, the Big Black River's water level drops reeeeeeal low; maybe as much as 15 feet. So, I'm thinking that someone MUST have recovered those cannons sometime through the years, OR he was pulling my leg bigtime.

Oh, and gldhntr, ALL of the land in that area is privately owned. There is NO state or federally owned property in the entire Champion Hill area. I know this for a fact. I was raised in the next county and STILL live here. I know this area well and have researched it well. There is a fellow who owns a large tract of land on the Big Black at the site of the Battle of Big Black River Bridge that has tried at least twice in the past 5 years to get permission to build a hotel / casino / race track facility on his property, but so far the state gaming folks have turned him down. He wants to get the facility built and try to get NASCAR to certify his track and put it into their circuit.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Good stuff

 

[Shortstack]

OK, I've gone back and reread my notes and books on this deal. Here's the corrected version. I say "corrected" because I had one important thing wrong. Bakers Creek was not rain-swollen; preventing Loring's unit from crossing even though it had been raining pretty hard. Loring dragged ass too long and the units assigned to cover his crossing the creek had to pull out because the Union troops had crossed the northern ford and were firing on the southern ford with cannon and moving in some troops. Loring had to move southwesterly looking for another crossing, but those were being watched, too. To engage the small Union forces at those crossing points would have caused the larger Union forces on Loring's east to come "running". So, Loring had to figure out how to cross to the west without getting into another big fight. A Mr. Vaugn, a local planter, claimed to be able to lead Loring to a good crossing on Fourteen Mile Creed, but failed to do the job. Loring doubled back a few miles and told his men to spike the cannons and destroy their extra small arms and ammo. According to reports, the Union forces found the remains of the destroyed equipment the next day.
When Loring started his move east, his men had to literally sneek through the camps of the Yankees. Many times, there'd be a Yankee call out to them, asking what unit they were and the Rebs would yell back some unit from up north. They made Crystal Springs in a day's time of forced marching. While on this move, the people along the route would hid their well buckets and other containers so as to prevent the Rebs from getting some "easy" water. The Rebs had to drink contaminated water from ditches and creeks. When they finally got to Jackson (by way of C.S.) most of the men were seriously ill.

Since the arms were destroyed, there would have been little reason for the Yankees to recover them. Soooooo, rifle barrels and other identifiable metal parts would still be very collectible.....especially with that kind of documentation to increase the value.

 

[allen]

could you imagine finding all of those !!!

 

[gilmerman]

This find would put your name in the annals for all time.

 

[Marty-Graw]

what kind of value would a cache of say 1000 each rifles and pistols have?
I know of a story where an old man was hiking and came across a cave full of CW supplies... not sure what kind of supplies..... the man couldnt find the cave again after that because the entrance was covered by bushes.....not sure how he found it the first time.....the reason i kind of believe this story is roughly 20 years ago the old man (original finder) told my friend and my friend told me. so it hasnt been handed down a hundred times exaggerated each time

 

[gldhntr]

depending on what they are and which era they date from, possibly a fortune....some civil war era long guns valued from 1200 to several thousand dollars each...old colt revolvers and the like are the same way..............

 

[jnjross]

with a title like that who can't stop n read? I come from a long line of civil war history buffs, and it's a nice story but in lorings letters in the days after CH, he states "We lost what artillery we had with us for the want of a road and bridges, The wagons of this division were sent back to Edwards Depot.". Col. Daniel W. Lindsey Twenty-second Kentucky Infantry wrote to his captain "On the approach of the latter the enemy retired his battery, leaving a wagon-load of ammunition on the ground. I ordered the ammunition destroyed (in the execution of which order Captain Thomas, of the Twenty- second Kentucky, a most gallant and efficient officer, was severely burned by the explosion), marched to Edwards Station, and bivouacked at 12 o'clock at night.". The story of Loring as become a lore. . I live in what was called auburn, and I am certain that Sid Champion V will not give permission, he is very protective of the site. If you can tell from the website! shortstack if that company is cal-main they give relic rights to The Jackson Civil War round table who works with MDAH on this area and could soon be part of vicksburg military park, making that site Illegal to hunt. If it's too good to be true,,, Would we all like to find Jesse James stash ..

 

[rebelLT]

Oxbow lake maybe? I know that most of the creeks around my area have oxbowed a few times since the civil war. You can often see the old creek channel on sat photos. Just a thought.