Abandoned equipment

[spillercanyon]

I filed a claim this fall which has mining equipment, trash and unfilled holes still on it. What legal rights, if any, do I have to remove his equipment from the claim if he decides not to move it? How long would I have to wait? I assume I can start removing his trash and filling his holes immediately if I cannot get him to do it.

Thanks!

P.S. I ask because most of the equipment is not of high value and he told me a few times he had no plans of ever hiking his heavy equipment back out of the canyon, especially the low end equipment, too much work he said (it's down a steep ravine and then a mile or so hike). I wouldn't want or use most of it, so to me, it's trash. If I can, I'll hike it out of there and give most of it away and sale a few items to someone who needs it. I like to keep my claims clean.

 

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[Goldfleks]

he intened to keep it or he wouldnt want spillers help filing with county!! you guys are just the best with your concept of "help"

claim jumpers help themselves........ your Bad Karma, not mine

Part of being a professional miner is taking care of your paperwork. If I want to do business in the city, I need to fill out the paperwork for my yearly business license. If I don't do that, I lose the privaledge of doing business with the city. If I don't pay my rent, and renew my lease I lose my business space. Which the land lord can then lease to someone else.

The point of a claim is to give the mineral rights to someone who is going to activly invest in their retreival. From the looks of it, this claim owner was no longer interested in doing that, and the government has the right to give those mineral rights to someone else who wants to work the claim.

Your also ignoring the fact that the guy has filed the peperwork in the past when he was activly working the claim. So it's not like he didn't know how to do it.

 

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[spillercanyon]

All things aside of the details of the OP's story changing, how far should one miner really go to help another miner keep his paperwork correct? Fill it out and take it to the county for him? Mail it to BLM for him? At some point there has to be some personal accountability for keeping your own claim up to snuff paperwork wise. Most paper hangers wouldn't have even reached out the first time to say "Hey, FYI..."

Not to be completely naive but I don't even quite understand paper claiming, paper hangers. I have been prospecting for 40 years, I claim what I will work and nothing more. I have never sold a claim or held a claim I was not working. Isn't the idea of paper claiming to make a profit by turning them around and selling them or perhaps holding on to them for a better time to sale? That's not what I have done or plan on doing.

This post has gone from worrying about whether someone is going to shaft me with a bunch of work to remove their garbage to defending my mining practices. It's no wonder we miners suck so badly at moving forward, we have miners take it upon themselves to call everyone liars cheats and thieves with absolutely nothing to base it on but a simple few sentences. There are people here that really know what they're talking about and it's a pleasure to read their posts whether I agree or not, then there are others that speculate and trash people for no reason, I could do without these people in every aspect of my life.

 

[gldguy1]

Spiller canyon I wouldn't trip on Todd, I bet he is still upset Clinton lost. Just my .2[emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Jeff95531]

First LOL of the day gldguy1. Thanks!

 

[goldenIrishman]

By the federal mining laws..... Filing a claim with the soul intention of reselling it is illegal. If you claim it, you're supposed to work it. Leasing the claim is allowed and is a common practice. People that claim only to sell to some poor greenhorn that hasn't got a clue on mining, geology, or laws are one of the lowest forms of life in the mining community. Now THAT is some bad Karma!

 

[kcm]

If ya'll will accept the humble ramblings of a not-yet-novice, the title of the thread has to do with abandoned equipment. Regardless of what info is in the OP, Spiller was not writing about the circumstances surrounding how he came to file on the claim. That was not his goal. His goal, IMO, was to seek input from other Tnet members concerning the equipment that, apparently, the previous claim owner has no desire to pack out.

Todd, you may read into this that his story has changed. Yet I've done the EXACT same thing in threads - start writing about one thing, while the focus ends up being on something else altogether that was NOT fully revealed. Also, I do not include ALL facts for people to ponder from every possible point-of-view.

Whether you believe Spiller did wrong or not isn't really the intent. The question at hand is, what should be done concerning the equipment and the current condition of the claim?

Am I understanding things correctly??

 

[MadMarshall]

The foundation of a claim is discovery. more often then not the vast majority of claims are paperstaked in one way or another.

 

[Bonaro]

There is a list of things a miner must do in order to keep his claim valid. Skip just one of those things (regardless of why) and the BLM will close the claim. You will not get a do-over and there is no grace period. Once the claim is closed, anyone (including the recently voided owner) is free to file a new claim on it.
So the real question is, how long must a claim be closed before the next claimant is at risk of this bad karma I hear about?
The answers is - Zero, you can file a new claim immediately.

Spiller, it was nice of you to try and help this guy, too bad it didn't work out for him but it's of no fault of yours. You had zero obligation to help this guy in the first place, after that, the guy still fubared the filing and the claim lapsed.
Congrats on your new and valid claim. You now own the minerals, the holes, the trash and all of the equipment.

Tuolumme, if you write out a check for your mortgage but forget to mail it, whose fault is it when the house goes to foreclosure? By they way you and some others speak, it seems you would expect a third party to give you some sort of pass on this...for reasons I can't explain. If you then go to a credit counselor and he tells you to mail the payment but you still can't figure out how to lick a stamp, is it his fault?
Sorry, this is not how life works in ANY other circumstance so why would it work here?. You are not entitled to do-overs when your incompetence overtakes you.
If you lapse your claim (or let your house foreclose) I will be first in line to claim it (or buy it) and all of your stuff you leave behind will belong to me. If you are nice I may sell it back to you.

 

[Reed Lukens]

Next time you go down, take pictures of what is down there. If you have 300lbs of garbage the the first thing I would do is burn it down to as little as possible. Let it cool and then bag it up. Come back here and post the pics of the equipment that you want out of there. Then if they want something, you can charge accordingly or let them come down and haul it out themselves along with a bag of garbage either for a price if it's a complete working dredge, or for free after being allowed to also work the claim for the day. This kills 2 birds with one stone, some people get some free equipment and your pile of garbage disappears.
As far as the paperwork goes, Tod's a troll, looking to start problems. Simply add him to your block list and move on. There was no need to respond to his trolling for trouble. If the guy wanted the claim, he would have made sure he did the paperwork. Unfortunately there's a chance that he got cited by the USFS or BLM and left it for you or them to clean up. Did you pull his file? Either way the equipment is yours because you are the claim owner, so the responsibility of cleaning it up also falls to you more or less unless a Judge tells you different. Friends of the River will also volunteer a party to come down and help clean up as well as plenty of people here. So you have plenty of options

 

[Tuolumne]

Poor spiller, his new claim is full of crap and he doesn't want to be held accountable and looking for a way to weasel out of cleaning it up.

You knew it was full of crap, why ***** after the fact when he told you he was never going to clean it up?

You knew what you were getting so quit whining about your "bad luck" and thinking you can get out the hook by having others do your work.

Send us some pictures, I still don't understand if it's 1.5 miles off the road what r u worried about?

You knew what you were getting, claim jumpers buyers beware.

Prospecting 40 years and keeping the claim jumping "help" thy neighbor miner spirit alive! Not my style

 

[Tuolumne]

Spiller canyon I wouldn't trip on Todd, I bet he is still upset Clinton lost. Just my .2[emoji23][emoji23]

I'm a Ron Paul type guy, his daily liberty report is excellent-IQ higher than Hilary and trump combined. Just do the right thing people, help where u can
But I ain't paper claiming anyone's land if they asked for my help-

So spiller have you found gold or anything besides priceless crap?

Or did you paper claim it based on a hunch? Did you use dousing rods or how did you know there was any gold 1.5 miles down a gultch. 40 years of paper claiming give u a edge somehow? There's more to this story not being told

Good luck with your trashed claim

 

[Clay Diggins]

To the original poster's question:

The key word to understand is already in your post title "abandoned". When property is abandoned on federally managed public lands it becomes the property of the government.

Abandoned Property from an approved mining operation is any property left on the public lands beyond the 90-day period described in CFR 3715.5 1 becomes the property of the United States and is subject to removal and disposition at the BLM's discretion consistent with applicable laws and regulations.

If the property was abandoned from other than an approved mining operation it's treated pretty much the same way - From the DOI GSA federal manual:

Subpart C—Voluntarily Abandoned Personal Property
§102-41.80—When is personal property voluntarily abandoned?

Personal property is voluntarily abandoned when the owner of the property intentionally and voluntarily gives up title to such property and title vests in the Government. The receiving agency ordinarily documents receipt of the property to evidence its voluntary relinquishment. Evidence of the voluntary abandonment may be circumstantial.

In other words the government already owns all the property abandoned on the public lands. You might want to document the state of the mining claim surface (pictures, witness statements). That part in bold above is why they might blame you for the trash if you don't document the condition when you locate the claim. If the government property on the surface of your mining claim interferes with your mining work inform the surface management agency that their property needs to be removed so you can proceed with your mineral development.

Do not move, remove, destroy or sell the government's property. There are heavy criminal penalties for all of those acts. This is real world advice. Several people each year are prosecuted for removing or destroying government property on the public lands - including abandoned camping and mining debris and trash. CYA as to the condition of the surface when you acquired the claim and move on about your mining business.

Heavy Pans

 

[Hefty1]

But is it really "Abandoned" has it been cited by the gov, as abandoned? If not the new claim owner is responsible for all.

Sounds to me the new claim owner has bee had.

 

[Bonaro]

I think he may have reclaimed it prior to the 90 period. Regardless, if he marched up to BLM and asked them when they would be removing THEIR property from his new claim, I am sure they insist it is HIS property and problem. Unless of course it was worth something.

 

[spillercanyon]

Thanks Reed! The thought of burning what I can may not have crossed my mind, I may have been hiking more poundage than I will now. I can bust butt with the best of them and plan on getting everything out of there whether I'm told to or not, leave a place better than you found it right? I appreciate you actually answering my question.

I'm a simple person who spends zero time trying to create loop holes or screw anyone over, I don't have the time nor the patience to do so. I came here looking for answers to a problem and have been called a liar, taking advantage of old people, paper claiming, claim jumping, back stabbing, cheating, squandering, highgrading SOB, WTF I've haven't been treated this rudely in my life.

Todd, the bad karma is all yours and may it rain down upon you. Trump won, Blue Lives Matter, there's a conservative judge a coming, peace through strength, less regulation is a good thing. Todd, there's a new world order and you better pull up your big boy britches and play or you're going to get run over. I've done nothing but try to help this person help himself, I'm not responsible for coddling him or anyone else.

Do I know what is there? You call yourself a 4th generation miner and you don't know where the gold is in Tuolumne and Mariposa Counties, serious??!!!!!!!! You don't know jack if you have lived around here all your life and don't know where to find gold. We live in the Mother Lode for Pete's sake. I've walked these hills for 40 years and worked more areas than I can count (yes legally, lets not go there Todd). There are areas of these counties that rarely open up to new claims because they are known to have gold. Does it have gold? Of coarse it has gold, what part of the Mother Lode does not have gold and why would I bother claiming something that doesn't have gold? The claim has not been valid for a year so if I tested it, it would be no different than any other prospector out looking for a claim on open acreage, but I have never knowingly worked another's claim without permission and did not work his, even though it was not valid I respected that he was going to claim it. I did test it, I went out after I realized that he had not filed the claim and tested a few spots. I had walked the claim before, not a crime, and like every creek and ravine I hike in, I spotted places I would check if I had the claim. The spots checked out and I located it two days later.

Todd, you are really a dark person who creates drama for the sake of self pleasure and attention. You are what I dislike so much about our media, you start finger pointing and making accusations that have no merit only to make your mount on your high horse feel a little higher. Your horse is just an illusion, you know that right?

Good night to all and thanks for any serious answers to my initial question.

 

[spillercanyon]

Poor spiller, his new claim is full of crap and he doesn't want to be held accountable and looking for a way to weasel out of cleaning it up.

You knew it was full of crap, why ***** after the fact when he told you he was never going to clean it up?

You knew what you were getting so quit whining about your "bad luck" and thinking you can get out the hook by having others do your work.

Send us some pictures, I still don't understand if it's 1.5 miles off the road what r u worried about?

You knew what you were getting, claim jumpers buyers beware.

Prospecting 40 years and keeping the claim jumping "help" thy neighbor miner spirit alive! Not my style

WTF Todd. I did not complain once and fully know what I've gotten myself into. I have no problem hiking this out if that's what it comes down to. What I was asking and Reed and Clay have addressed as to what I can legally do to clean up the claim. I've never run into someone so ready to jump to conclusions and spew their ignorance. 2016 isn't over, St. Peter would be glad to close the gate on you and send you packing the other direction, put on your Keds, drink the koolaid and jump on the nearest comet space cadet Todd.

 

[spillercanyon]

The foundation of a claim is discovery. more often then not the vast majority of claims are paperstaked in one way or another.

So, paper claiming is claiming an area that you have not properly tested, put in your discovery marker and corners (not needed in California but I always mark mine)? I've learned something new tonight. Thanks MM!

 

[kcm]

...I can bust butt with the best of them and plan on getting everything out of there whether I'm told to or not, leave a place better than you found it right?

Please read Clay's post (Post #32) again. Maybe they wouldn't mind if you "cleaned it up" around there. Then again, maybe they would.

 

[spillercanyon]

Please read Clay's post (Post #32) again. Maybe they wouldn't mind if you "cleaned it up" around there. Then again, maybe they would.

Thanks kcm, I read Clay's post who I respect and will definitely heed, I'll hike out whatever I can legally hike out. There are broken buckets, plastic wrappers, cut up inner tubes, beer cans, etc, I don't need a government agency to tell me to clean it up, I'd clean it up as I do a lot of trash when I hike/prospect. If I have to leave any equipment that may have value, that will all become lawn art.

 

[Kenmitch]

Reading Clay's comments....The best thing to do would be take lot's of photos of the claim documenting what was left and in what condition it was in when possession of the claim was taken. I'm sure there is a out of the way place on such said claim that the stuff could be moved to for temp storage till you get it straightened out. Better safe than sorry.

As far as the other aspects discussed in the thread....Seems like if the claim was invalid in Dec 2015 and the original claim owner was advised, somewhat helped to straighten it out, put it on the back burner, didn't take care of the issue, etc. he snoozed and loosed it would appear. Not really sure if you guys were friends or just somewhat business acquaintances or what. Guess in the end it really doesn't matter either way.