Atlantis

[Highmountain]

oh, I'm not suggesting they were stupider than us, if anything I'm saying the opposite:

What I'm saying is that the pyramids, zuggarats, easter island totems, Nazca Lines, British Burial Mounds and Aritifical Hills, Mesoamerican temples, and Indian Iron pillars were all constructed by the ingenuity of their respective civilizations*, who had no need for outside aide from aliens or supersmart proto-europeans to get the job done. Everything I've learned in my studies of ancient civilizations suggests that if people have lots of spare time and want to build something real big, they'll figure out a way.

You have a point though, Highmountain, I suppose I can't entirely rule out Aliens; It just seems to me that if we're truly searching for the Atlantis discussed by Plato, we should believe what he says before we accept the much later theories of a bunch of crystal-gripping spiritualists...no offense if any of you are part of the New Age movement.

I suppose I missed the part about super-smart Europeans being in the picture.

Can't say I ever heard that one.

A lot of times in history people just stumble onto things that work and some go forward from there. I forget which ancient Chinese I read once who gave the formula for carbon steel, and why. Had to do with tossing a slave into the molten vat. I don't recall the specific logic associated with doing it, but it worked and produced some excellent blades and didn't require any intervention from aliens to come up with it.

It's equally heartening to think somebody back there might have figured out how a dead slave could provide a power plant for a flying machine, which it might under the right circumstances.

But the flying machine digression provided a bolt-hole so's a person can side-step considerations of the planet surface ramifications of a continent or large island sinking like some wounded Bismark or Titanic anytime during human history.

Jack

 

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[WilliamTheFinder]

Whenever we dig up some new ancient work of architecture that exceeds expectations of what we assume they could produce, you generally get propositions running to the tune that such a work of art could only have been constructed by aliens or Euro/Phonecians who washed up there by chance.


Anyway, back to the topic at hand:
I'm typically of the opinion that Atlantis was totally destroyed as per the legend, IE, that no tips of mountains are going to be sticking out over the top. In fact, the entire landmass may well have been totally obliterated, leaving no immediately detectable trace on the seafloor.

Then again, I'm also of the opinion that Plato wasn't talking about a civilization that existed 9,000 years ago. Date inflation was pretty common back then, and I definitely don't hold Plato to be immune from that, especially since he draws the story almost entirely from another source.
But as I said before, stranger things have happened, and the date for the supposed "Dawn" of civilization keeps getting pushed farther and farther back.

More questions:

what's this orichalcum? Is it an alloy of gold? or some entirely unheard of metal...huge quantities of an uncommon metal embedded in the seafloor may be our best shot at finding the thing.

I think the translation presented earlier refers to the "Atlantic"...given what I have in my notes, the exact greek is "The True Sea" which was a phrase they used for lots of large oceanic expanses...'course, I took these notes 5 years ago, but I'll look into it

 

[Highmountain]

A determined investigator might find something to support one premise or another in these:

Tectonic microplates in a wax model of sea-floor spreading ... the early 1970s through surveys of their magnetic anomalies ... associated with non-transform offsets of the Mid-Atlantic ...
http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1367-2630/7/1/037/njp5_1_037.html
http://snipurl.com/29u6q [www_iop_org]

U.S. Geological Survey
Area of Operations : Middle-Atlantic Continental Margin, North Atlantic Continental Margin, United States, North America, North Atlantic
http://quashnet.er.usgs.gov/data/1976/76030/index.html
http://snipurl.com/29u6w [quashnet_er_usgs_gov]


USGS WHSC Publications
http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/pubsearch/pub_list.php?type=map&order=title
http://snipurl.com/29u70 [woodshole_er_usgs_gov]

Folger, D.W., McCullough, J.R., Irwin, B.J., Dodd, J.E., Strahle, W.J., Polloni, C.F., Bouse, R.M., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies around the Canary Islands, Spain: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-B, scale 1:750,000.


Folger, D.W., McCullough, J.R., Irwin, B.J., Dodd, J.E., Strahle, W.J., Polloni, C.F., Bouse, R.M., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies around the Canary Islands, Spain: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-B, scale 1:750,000.

Folger, D.W., Irwin, B.J., McCullough, J.R., Bouse, R.M., Polloni, C.F., Dodd, J.E., O'Brien, T.F., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies around the Cape Verde Islands: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-A, scale 1:750,000.

Folger, D.W., Irwin, B.J., McCullough, J.R., Dodd, J.E., Bouse, R.M., Bowin, C.O., Polloni, C.F., Strahle, W.J., Gann, J.T., Gilbert, C., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies in parts of the western Caribbean Sea: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2097-A, scale 1:500,000.

Folger, D.W., Irwin, B.J., McCullough, J.R., Strahle, W.J., Bowin, C.O., Polloni, C.F., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies off the coasts of Venezuela and Trinidad-and-Tobago: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2097-B, scale 1:500,000.

Folger, D.W., Irwin, B.J., McCullough, J.R., Rowland, R.W., Polloni, C.F., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies off the southern coast of west-central Africa; Liberia to Ghana: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-E, scale 1:500,000.

Folger, D.W., McCullough, J.R., Irwin, B.J., Driscoll, G.R., Delorey, C.M., Polloni, C.F., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies off the western coast of Africa; Nigeria to Gabon: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-F, scale 1:500,000.

Folger, D.W., McCullough, J.R., Irwin, B.J., Driscoll, G.R., Polloni, C.F., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies off the western coast of Africa; Senegal (south of 15 degrees north latitude) to Sierra Leone: U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-D, scale 1:500,000.

Folger, D.W., Irwin, B.J., McCullough, J.R., Driscoll, G.R., Polloni, C.F., 1990, Map showing free-air gravity anomalies off the western coast of Africa; Western Sahara to Senegal (north of 15 degrees north latitude): U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Field Studies Map MF-2098-C, scale 1:500,000.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I'll try to look into these,
I'm looking for new things to research, as you can probably tell, I'm mostly in this stuff to learn.

 

[Highmountain]

I'll try to look into these,
I'm looking for new things to research, as you can probably tell, I'm mostly in this stuff to learn.

There ought to be enough data from sonar scans and magnetic anomaly surveys available accumulated during the Cold War years and IGYs to get a pretty good fix on whatever's left of Atlantis if it's down there and if they were doing any metal work to speak of.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheehs, Atlantis existed, and we now know where it was, and is, at the present.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Sheehs, Atlantis existed, and we now jknow where it was, and is, at the present.

Don Jose de La Mancha

awwwwwww man! that ruins all the fun.
Really? where?
I'm pretty dang sure nothing remotely close to Plato's description has surfaced...understand that, as I said before, some podunk sunken island that just-so-happens to have a destroyed civilization on it isn't Atlantis...because Atlantis wasn't the only wasted island civilization in existance...there's been lots of those. Santorini, Crete, and any cylcadic/minoan culture doesn't seem to fit the bill.

For it to be Plato's Atlantis, it must be
1) 9,000 Years old or older
2) Exist beyond the pillars of hercules and on the ocean he refers to
3) Be reasonably large enough to be bigger than Plato's "Asian and Libia"
4) Be destroyed in an upheaval in a single night and a day such that a large portion of it "sinks below the waves"
5) Support a civilization at least remotely similar to Plato's, obviously he couldn't get all the details right secondhand, but they at least need to be at the "lavish temple and harbor" stage of civilization
6) If it doesn't match any of these criterion, a good reason needs to be proposed why this one fact is "wrong" and the rest is "right"...it's no good arbitrarily saying "He exaggerated that", while keeping the rest of the passage intact.

 

[Oroblanco]

Excellent posts amigos. I respectfully disagree with the point about Atlantis being a continent, on the grounds that we are given the dimensions of the island (and Plato uses the term island repeatedly, never calling it a continent) which while still a fairly large island, is by no measure a continent. The opening statement about Atlantis being "greater than" Asia and Libya can easily be taken to mean that the Atlantean empire was greater, not the island alone. Just my opinion, and not a point I would care to offend anyone over.

I agree that we should not rule out such ideas as the possibility of aliens or flying machines as has been attributed to Atlantis in modern times, but see no need of them when they are not mentioned by Plato. There are certainly enough strange bits of evidence to suggest that Earth has quite possibly been visited by beings from some other world, but I find no references in Timaeus or Critias.

As for the catastrophe which destroyed Atlantis (an Ice-age civilization) we have a number of recorded events to choose from, such as the sudden rise of the sea levels when the huge ice dams broke and flooded down the St. Lawrence releasing many cubic MILES of ice-cold fresh water in a surge:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041219152011.htm
or a similar event which erupted into the Pacific when glacial Lake Missoula broke through, repeatedly:
http://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/

There are tsunamis and mega-tsunamis, caused by earthquakes and island collapses, such as has happened at Cumbre Vieja volcano in the Canary islands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbre_Vieja
http://www.rense.com/general13/tidal.htm

It could have been a gigantic collapse of the island too - and such things HAVE happened, such as in Chile in 1960, when the largest (recorded) earthquake hit (9.5) and a whole strip of coastal land subsided below sea level. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts/results?eq_1=45&t=101634&s=0&d=4&d=44

We could go on here but we have real, known geologic and meteorologic events which very well could be the smoking gun that destroyed Atlantis, if we could only identify exactly which event. For that matter, it might have been a relatively MINOR event (speaking in world-shaking terms) if the island happened to be largely composed of silts and clays, alluvial materials etc as this type of land is especially subject to subsidences from quite minor disturbances. However as Plato included a mention of volcanoes, it seems safe to rule out this type of land.

I have to wonder, if we moderns would even recognize Atlantian relics, artifacts, ruins etc if they were found? Suppose such evidence already is found but simply NOT recognized as Atlantian?

Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I didn't consider the mass being carried away...that would certainly explain why we don't see anything on the sea floor, and also nicely allows the cities themselves to "Sink" beneath the waves. That's a really neat hypothesis

The only thing I'm really going to disagree with is that a 9,000 year empire that had holdings as large as Plato's Asia and Lybia would have definitely left unique records, tools, cities, or artifacts...civilizations a few thousand years later left indeliable marks on the much tinier parts of the world they inhabited, and 11,000 years isn't enough to erase the marks of one unified, advanced empire that spanned this much of the globe.
If this is the case, the largest extent of their remains would not have sunk with the island. If their technology and architecture were really at the level Plato describes, these ruins or trinkets would stick out like sore thumbs. It seems to me that if Atlantis had a continent sized empire, we'd be better off searching for Atlantian remains on dry land than combing the sea bed for lost cities.

Not to criticize so much as shift focus...maybe the hunt should start somewhere drier.

(Minor later edit: turns out it actually says the island mud was carried away in Plato's version...here's a great example of how people ((Ie:me)) can read a story several dozen times and skip a really relevant detail.)

 

[Zeitgeist_Xero]

I'm not sure why my last post in this topic was ignored... but you guys who keep quoting Plato seem to really miss the point.

Plato stated that Athens fought Atlantis... but this could never have been the case, as Athens did not even exist 10,000 years earlier than both of Plato's texts. It's interesting how some people like to pick and discard facts at whim. Careful analysis of Plato's works show that overall - the topic of Atlantis was to talk about Utopia, Ideals, governance, and law - and the consequences of state/national hubris - not a geography lesson, nor something founded in any solid facts.

A careful, and thorough analysis of Plato's overall works shows that he wrote in philosophical and allegorical terms - to further philosophical/political ideas - not treasure maps, or historical accounts. An example is when Plato also writes about speaking with the Goddess Diotima, about Love - in the Symposium; another philsophical tale. How many of you would take such a tale literally? There are hundreds of examples to show that Plato's topics are Ideals, not facts or indexes of measurable accounts.

If you look at ancient history accounts all over the earth, each culture likes to envision/imagine that waaaay back in the past, things were better, more perfect, etc. You see this in China, in Native American mythologies, as well as in the Western World. Regardless whether Herodotus or other minor persons mention Atlantis - those lesser accounts don't give any detailed description - before Plato. Plus, Herodotus wrote about all sorts of fantastical topics - not to be taken at full face value. He abosrbed the local folklore, nothing more.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I'm not sure why my last post in this topic was ignored... but you guys who keep quoting Plato seem to really miss the point.

Plato stated that Athens fought Atlantis... but this could never have been the case, as Athens did not even exist 10,000 years earlier than both of Plato's texts. It's interesting how some people like to pick and discard facts at whim. Careful analysis of Plato's works show that overall - the topic of Atlantis was to talk about Utopia, Ideals, governance, and law - and the consequences of state/national hubris - not a geography lesson, nor something founded in any solid facts.

A careful, and thorough analysis of Plato's overall works shows that he wrote in philosophical and allegorical terms - to further philosophical/political ideas - not treasure maps, or historical accounts. An example is when Plato also writes about speaking with the Goddess Diotima, about Love - in the Symposium; another philsophical tale. How many of you would take such a tale literally? There are hundreds of examples to show that Plato's topics are Ideals, not facts or indexes of measurable accounts.

If you look at ancient history accounts all over the earth, each culture likes to envision/imagine that waaaay back in the past, things were better, more perfect, etc. You see this in China, in Native American mythologies, as well as in the Western World. Regardless whether Herodotus or other minor persons mention Atlantis - those lesser accounts don't give any detailed description - before Plato. Plus, Herodotus wrote about all sorts of fantastical topics - not to be taken at full face value. He abosrbed the local folklore, nothing more.

I think You're missing the point, actually...no offense
As previously stated, I'm 50/50 on the truth of just about any ledgend, truth, or buried pot of gold. I have absolutely no doubt that what Plato intended to do was use Atlantis as an allegory for power, humility, divinity, and the profane human condition, and to dash off in search of an island without absorbing his message totally misses the point. But once we've thought about what he has to say on that front; it's worth looking at things through the lense of what might be, if for no other reason than to try to see the world a different way

Now, if I was on a Geology or History forum, two other fields I'm rather fond of, I might treat a post like this with a little more skepticism...in my capacity as a historian, I most certainly do not think there's any really "credible" evidence for Atlantis, and I'm not sure I can say such a thing exists in the historical frame of mind I have to adopt for my job.

I am, however, posting on a treasure hunting forum, in a sub-forum entitled Treasure Legends. I think the most productive work here can be done is if we are willing to look at things with a little less skepticism. As an example:

My major work this summer is tracking down the Holy Shield of Alexander the great...a little relic he picked up in Troy (According to Arrian) Which he believed belonged to Either Athena or Ajax, I'm not sure which yet. Now, I could just wave it off like so many others have done...it could be nothing more than an exaggeration on Arrian's part, or one of Alex's many propaganda techniques. There's certainly no historical evidence to suggest that Greek Gods existed...but I'm not doing a historical analysis. Because by getting in the mindset of Alexander's soldiers (Who actually DID believe this thing was real), I can better understand what it was like to be an ancient Greek...

Similarly, no one here is operating strictly as a scientist or a historian. This is a treasure legends page, where everyone is a little open to live in the world of fantasy...you'll notice I suggested "divine intervention" as an earlier hypothesis for the destruction of Atlantis...I'm not even sure I believe in God. But for the purposes of this discussion, and understanding the mindset of people who first heard and believed the legened of Atlantis, it's worth keeping a very open mind.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Zeitgeist_Xero (and everyone),

Zeitgeist_Xero wrote:

I'm not sure why my last post in this topic was ignored... but you guys who keep quoting Plato seem to really miss the point.

Plato stated that Athens fought Atlantis... but this could never have been the case, as Athens did not even exist 10,000 years earlier than both of Plato's texts.

Not ignoring your posts amigo, just don't agree with them. I agree that Plato used the tale of Atlantis as a setting for his morality play, but he certainly didn't invent Atlantis. You have said that Athens did not exist 10,000 years ago, yet even within Plato's text we find the explanation, that there was a large change in the landscape of Greece, removing most of the topsoils leaving the "bare bones" (rock) and in the process removing this earlier "Athens" as well. A city can be built of wood instead of stone too, which would leave little to be found in a much shorter time period than even a thousand years.

It is the "pat" answer among academia to dismiss the whole of Plato's story of Atlantis as nothing but a morality play, so you have plenty of supporters for your view. Just my opinion but I do not share that view. William the Finder has a problem in accepting that such an Ice-age civilization could have existed and left no trace. I would propose that we are not likely to find much trace anyway, unless the actual capital city could be found and this is supposed to be underwater. Cities or at least settlements have been found underwater, by the way. Then too, suppose that some evidence already exists, but is not recognized as being "Atlantian" because we call it by another name? Plato admits to changing the names to Hellenic types, as the meanings of the names were learned so as to make the story easier to 'connect' with his Hellenic audiences. Plutarch hinted that Plato did embellish the story, and I think we see this in the elaborate description of the capital city; however Plutarch did not accuse him of inventing the story, in fact he states that Solon did at least start to write the history. However the true name of the Ice-age empire might well have been different from "Atlantis"!

One particular type of evidence really should survive, and this is the stuff we would love to find - GOLD. This noble metal should survive for millenia even submerged in salt water. If Atlantis (for lack of the true name) did exist, and I am convinced there was such an Ice-Age civilization, their GOLD should still be there waiting for someone to find it.

Just look at the difficult hunt in recent years for the timber forts of the Normans that once dotted the countryside of England, and remember these have only been abandoned for less than a thousand years; now consider what might be left of timber forts, timber villages etc after 5000 years? I will go out on a limb and say that it would be exceedingly difficult even to identify that any such wooden fort or settlement ever existed, even if you were standing on the spot.

This is my opinion of course, no offense intended to anyone. Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I'm trying to find Heroditus's mention of Atlantis.
You know where it is? I can't seem to locate it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is the passage in Greek:
(I HOPE this works)

You can see the Greek word Atlantis in the fifth line, the third word. It is in Clio (History, Bk I, 202). Be sure to find a copy that has the original Greek alongside the English translation, for several English translations have changed this wording. It kind of makes the accusations about Plato inventing it moot.
Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Here is the passage in Greek:
(I HOPE this works)

You can see the Greek word Atlantis in the fifth line, the third word. It is in Clio (History, Bk I, 202). Be sure to find a copy that has the original Greek alongside the English translation, for several English translations have changed this wording. It kind of makes the accusations about Plato inventing it moot.
Oroblanco

I took latin, greek, and mandarin chinese...for some reason, I assumed that the latin would be the most useful and spent all my time studying that...but time and time again, I wish I had done more Greek.

I'll try to translate this whole passage. You're right, it's ALWAYS best to look at the origional language before you draw any conclusions...I also need to see what word the Timeus uses to describe Atlantis...whether it's the word "island" or "land". I'm going to say that in this translation, none of the words for "island" or 'ocean' that I know of jump out at me.

EDIT: I'm finding this section in book four...I'm going to get a hard copy from the library tomorrow to double-check

 

[Oroblanco]

Well "Thalassa" is "sea" and in context it is saying the "sea of Atlantis" but I am no expert in Greek. I would have thought Latin would be of much more use, scholarly, than Greek. The whole point of this is that it is fair proof that Atlantis was not invented by Plato. There are other bits of evidence, which will take some research to find, but I am not sharing this just yet. If you look, it is there, but not always readily available.
Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Well "Thalassa" is "sea" and in context it is saying the "sea of Atlantis" but I am no expert in Greek. I would have thought Latin would be of much more use, scholarly, than Greek. The whole point of this is that it is fair proof that Atlantis was not invented by Plato. There are other bits of evidence, which will take some research to find, but I am not sharing this just yet. If you look, it is there, but not always readily available.
Oroblanco

oh, latin is worlds more useful for what I'm actually doing, you know, in real life
but every time I want to something significant (IE, not work-related and terribly nerdy, like this) I seem to need to use greek
you'll notice I'm having similar problems with the alexander treasures.

Yeah. I'm useless without a dictionary and I don't have one online that I really trust...I'll have to wait 'till I go to work tomorrow...this seems like a good lunch break timewaster...

Until then, could we maybe find someone who's COMPETENT at greek. I dunno about you, Oro, but I'm certainly not going to wholly trust any translation I turn up. I think there are a few differences between your image and mine, course, my site could be wrong:
compair with this one:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/index.htm

 

[Oroblanco]

Amen - I found the translation changes while looking into something quite un-related and now always try to find the little Loeb Classical hardcovers with the Greek on one page, the English translation on the opposite and check every translation. I don't find lots of "errors" but sometimes find rather LOOSE translations that change the original meaning considerably.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO : william the conqueror/finder you posted --->'

For it to be Plato's Atlantis, it must be
1) 9,000 Years old or older
2) Exist beyond the pillars of hercules and on the ocean he refers to
3) Be reasonably large enough to be bigger than Plato's "Asian and Libia"
4) Be destroyed in an upheaval in a single night and a day such that a large portion of it "sinks below the waves"
5) Support a civilization at least remotely similar to Plato's, obviously he couldn't get all the details right secondhand, but they at least need to be at the "lavish temple and harbor" stage of civilization
6) If it doesn't match any of these criterion, a good reason needs to be proposed why this one fact is "wrong" and the rest is "right"...it's no good arbitrarily saying "He exaggerated that", while keeping the rest of the passage intact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Atlantis does that and more.

Hint, an enormous, collapsed, dual ring, caldera, sitting on or near a major bearing / contact point of four Plates , an extremely unstable area. ..©@

Secondary thingie -->

http://nisee.berkeley.edu/lisbon/

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

hhhhhhmmmmmm
*terrible accent*
vvveeeeeeeerrrrrry interesting

what's up with this place?
any evidence a reasonably old civilization lived there