Atlantis

[WilliamTheFinder]

heh...
I don't want to degrade one of my minors, but Psych is a soft science...sadly, soft scientists don't seem to have a grasp on what science is sometimes...then again, I've been at loggerheads with more than a few physicists and chemists who make the same mistake...suffice to say:

In the scientific world, especially the statistics and survey laden world of psychology, people don't like it when you say you've proved something, all you can really say is that it's likely...no one actually follows this rule, but it's at the heart of inductive reasoning, which is what the entire trade is based around.

So in the nitpicky sense, I don't think we're ever going to "prove" the existence of Atlantis. Even in a criminal court, it would require something to the effect of the photo's Highmountain described. As I mentioned in an earlier post, simply showing that there's a more-advanced-than-average island civilization that sunk isn't enough, since this could concievably have happened many times.

 

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[Highmountain]

HI gentlemen: I am pleased to see that you are trying to find the weak seams of my proposal, precisely as I asked you for, but don't let personalities sneak in. So far, I haven't had to retreat.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose: So far all you've presented is a hypothesis involving words by a couple of ancients, and a piece of underwater real estate that might, or mightn't satisfy the description of one of those ancients. There's nothing for you to retreat from.

Nobody could rightfully disagree the ancients said what they said. That lies in the common-market of established and accepted history. All a person might disagree about is the degree of value to place on the commodity of the words. A hungry man might pay his shirt for an apple only to discover it's made of plaster.

Thus far your attempts to prove your hypothesis:

1] There's a place under the ocean in the Atlantic where something might have been that might have satisfied the descriptions of the ancients.

Ergo: If that place was Atlantis and if it sank abruptly it would certainly have created a lot of turbulence, possibly [and probably] a tsunami of magnificent stature.

Proof #1] Two great tsunamis have happened in the Med and there's cause to believe others also have happened there.

Is that a fair summation of what you've put forward as hypothesis and proof?

Jack

 

[Highmountain]

In the scientific world, especially the statistics and survey laden world of psychology, people don't like it when you say you've proved something, all you can really say is that it's likely...no one actually follows this rule, but it's at the heart of inductive reasoning, which is what the entire trade is based around.

So in the nitpicky sense, I don't think we're ever going to "prove" the existence of Atlantis. Even in a criminal court, it would require something to the effect of the photo's Highmountain described. As I mentioned in an earlier post, simply showing that there's a more-advanced-than-average island civilization that sunk isn't enough, since this could concievably have happened many times.

I don't know how we'd predict the likelihood of near-certain proof of the existence of Atlantis. Surprising things are frequently discovered and there's every reason to suspect others will be in the future. In the case of Atlantis I don't know how it might be recognized unless it satisfied with some exactness, something described by one of the ancients as being unique to Atlantis.

If scuba has something of that nature in photographs I think it might constitute proof enough for our purposes. Similarly, if Jose can produce evidence of a concentration magnetic, sonar and free air anomalies at the location he believes satisfies Plato's description it mightn't constitute proof, but it would add a sufficient body of solid evidence something is 'different' about the place to take the hypothesis a lot more seriously than a person might be inclined to do with only the suppositions offered thus far.

Jack

 

[Salvor6]

Here is my photographic proof of Atlantis, or whats left of it.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

what's the context, where is it?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI first High mt; Are we going for a criminal or civil conviction / proof? Even Troy, Zimbabwe, the Biblical references for that matter, would fail under a criminal rule.

You also posted -->

if Jose can produce evidence of a concentration magnetic, sonar and free air anomalies at the location he believes satisfies Plato's description it mightn't constitute proof,
~~~~~~~~~~~

None, since it is at the junction of three major plates, an area of intense activity in all subjects. They would simply over shadow Atlantis.

Remember, it is an area of extremely rough surface, deep canyons of thousands of ft, ridges , mt of the same in elevation from the sea floor, an area similar in some ways to the Barranca de Cobre or the Grand Canon., probably the roughest region under the seas.

Atlantis would simply be hidden in the background effects for the present.
**************************************************************************************~~~~~~~~~~~
Scuba my friend , a nice photograph, but no water is present nor are there two rings, just one. There are other factors, but this will do for now.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Thanks gentlemen, keep picking at it.

 

[Highmountain]

HI first High mt; Are we going for a criminal or civil conviction / proof? Even Troy, Zimbabwe, the Biblical references for that matter, would fail under a criminal rule.

You also posted -->

if Jose can produce evidence of a concentration magnetic, sonar and free air anomalies at the location he believes satisfies Plato's description it mightn't constitute proof,
~~~~~~~~~~~

None, since it is at the junction of three major plates, an area of intense activity in all subjects. They would simply over shadow Atlantis.

Remember, it is an area of extremely rough surface, deep canyons of thousands of ft, ridges , mt of the same in elevation from the sea floor, an area similar in some ways to the Barranca de Cobre or the Grand Canon., probably the roughest region under the seas.

Atlantis would simply be hidden in the background effects for the present.
**************************************************************************************~~~~~~~~~~~
Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Thanks gentlemen, keep picking at it.

Jose: Nothing much to pick at. We have a hypothesis. Nothing approaching proof by any standard though it does qualify as a 'might' along with everything else in the tall stack of conjecture about Atlantis.

HI first High mt; Are we going for a criminal or civil conviction / proof? Even Troy, Zimbabwe, the Biblical references for that matter, would fail under a criminal rule.

No need to go to those lengths of comparison for the case to fail. It fails of its own weight without anything to support it and no hope of ever getting anything to support it. Far less physical evidence than, say, the mound builders as ancestors of the Aztec, which you rightfully discounted with a shrug and a pronouncement it wasn't proved, which it wasn't.

Is there some reason a person ought to apply a different demand for credibility for this hypothesis than gets applied for any other?

Here's what you posted there:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,154852.100.html

Real de Tayopa
Hero Member

Good Morning Jack alias HI Mt: you posted --->

I'd honestly feel better about things if you were hanging it out over the edge with speculations and ideas same as I'm doing
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You "did" ask me to play the Devil's advocate no ? hehehehhh

Whether I believe in AZTLANTIS or not, has no bearing on my posts.. As in my Tayopa data, I encouraged people to find fault in my reasoning, If they could, then obviously I had further work to do or was mistaken.

Don Jose de La Mancha de AZTLANTIS


Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture
« Reply To This Topic #181 on: May 10, 2008, 04:31:35 PM »


HI Mountain: Where am "I" coming from ? "Saves me wasting any more work on it"? Hmmmm, that sounds a bit depreciating or condescending.. hehehehehehe

It " is" intriguing, and far more logical than expecting the 'Aztecs to have simply evolved from the mound builders.

Aztlantis apparently now has a bit of quasi-physical proof of existence, where as the Aztec's supposed migration from North America, so far, has absoloutely none.

Also this tends to explain ORO's theories of intercontinental migration, The Aztec theory of origin in North America does not !

Where am I wrong on Aztlantis? A blitheful wipeoff isn't adequate. explain. snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha el Dorado Azatlantisite.

p.s. No comments on the data circled on the ocean floor ? hehehehe


Real de Tayopa
Hero Member

Offline


Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture
« Reply To This Topic #185 on: May 10, 2008, 09:00:52 PM » Quote

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HI MT you posted --->

Atlantis has never interested me much - it never has been enough of an object of attention to grab mine until briefly on this thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm, you must have missed my post in which I flatly stated that I would be the Devils advocate, but not necessarily believe in it. I posted --->

"As another example, whether I believe Aztlantis existed or not, is immaterial. So far, it , as wild as it seems, has far more logic to back it up than the theory that the Aztecs came from the mound builder areas".

"what I have done in here, as per your suggestion, is to set up an opposition side for you to prove your points to, which has not been done".

I probably haven't thought of Aztlantis in 20 years, and then only casually until it was brought into the debate / discussion by a casual co-incidence. I was surprised just how easy it was to find what coukl be, by a wild stretch of the imagination , a possible / plausible location on the sea bottom, which you so kindly provided,

Heheheh

Don Jose de La Mancha
Real de Tayopa
Hero Member
"I exist to live, not live to exist"

Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture
« Reply To This Topic #193 on: May 19, 2008, 08:10:18 AM » Quote Modify Remove

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Quote from: Real de Tayopa on May 19, 2008, 08:03:06 AM
OHIO Peeps: Look what I found. Apparantly I am a johnny come lately in this thought, but defiitely on track..

" According to Ignatius L. Donnelly in his book Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, there is a connection between Atlantis and Aztlan (the ancestral home of the Aztecs). He claims that the Aztecs pointed east to the Caribbean as the former location of Aztlan"[/



Jack

On to other things:



Scuba: Looks as though there are some pieces of Atlantis still down there in the bottom.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I really don't see why the Aztecs need a whole lot of explaining...
Civilizations have this disturbing tendency to pop up out of the background...especially in the Americas, where the archeological record is hardly complete...actually, since a lot of the pro-atlantean arguments hinge on the record having huge gaps, I don't see why we need to conjur up a sunken empire to explain anything very much.

Mohenjo-Dharo and Lepinsky Vir popped up quite unexpectedly, and as aformentioned, the easter islanders spontaniously invented written language sometime in the early centuries AD...Even the Minoan and Cycladic civilizations had unexpected leaps to permanent architecture and written language...we can't explain how they did that, or in some cases even how they got there.
Do we need Atlantis to explain them too?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI MT you posted ---->

Is there some reason a person ought to apply a different demand for credibility for this hypothesis than gets applied for any other
~~~~~~~~~~~~

None, I agree except, in this case we do have a picture that fits the initial schetchy description perfectly so far.
the next step is to visi tthelocation in one way or another.

However, at the moment I still consider it by far the most likely site, since it fits in all points.

Don
Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

I really don't see why the Aztecs need a whole lot of explaining...
Civilizations have this disturbing tendency to pop up out of the background...especially in the Americas, where the archeological record is hardly complete...actually, since a lot of the pro-atlantean arguments hinge on the record having huge gaps, I don't see why we need to conjur up a sunken empire to explain anything very much.

Mohenjo-Dharo and Lepinsky Vir popped up quite unexpectedly, and as aformentioned, the easter islanders spontaniously invented written language sometime in the early centuries AD...Even the Minoan and Cycladic civilizations had unexpected leaps to permanent architecture and written language...we can't explain how they did that, or in some cases even how they got there.
Do we need Atlantis to explain them too?

I don't see why we need to conjur up a sunken empire to explain anything very much. Do we need Atlantis to explain them too?

William: Good question. I don't know the answer. We got along without Atlantis for a long time without anyone needing it. But a lot of the human life experience on planet Earth defies most of the conventional explanations. Atlantis might just be an easy might-be where a person can hang his hat that can't be disproved and doesn't involve delving into areas that get more mysterious fairly quickly.

Mohenjo-Dharo and Lepinsky Vir popped up quite unexpectedly, and as aformentioned, the easter islanders spontaniously invented written language sometime in the early centuries AD...Even the Minoan and Cycladic civilizations had unexpected leaps to permanent architecture and written language...we can't explain how they did that, or in some cases even how they got there.

The suggestion the Easter Islanders developed written language out of a void strikes me as a vacuous avoidance of looking for more likely but less palatable explanations. Nobody knows or pretends to know whether the Minoans and Cycladics came through the usual channnels or via some other route. But lumping them up with Easter Islanders as a pretense for proving a point qualifies as something along the lines of training herbivores to like meat and grazing wolves in cow pastures alongside lions.

An anthro PHD asserting the Easter Islanders did what they did without any outside influence is a lot like a vulture sitting in a tree saying to himself, "I'll starve to death before I kill something".

Jack

 

[Highmountain]

HI MT you posted ---->

Is there some reason a person ought to apply a different demand for credibility for this hypothesis than gets applied for any other
~~~~~~~~~~~~

None, I agree except, in this case we do have a picture that fits the initial schetchy description perfectly so far.
the next step is to visi tthelocation in one way or another.

However, at the moment I still consider it by far the most likely site, since it fits in all points.

Don
Jose de La Mancha

Jose: I agree. In the event Atlantis ever existed and Plato intended the description to be an accurate one that's as good a possibility as I've seen.

Jack

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

well, I'm lumping them togather becasue all are textbook examples of a spontanious arrival or advancement of a previously static culture...they're all also fairly common tropes for Atlantian intervention, some perhaps more common than the Aztecs.

of course, some of them appeared or "jumped forward" thousands of years after Atlantis supposedly went under; but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.

 

[Highmountain]

well, I'm lumping them togather becasue all are textbook examples of a spontanious arrival or advancement of a previously static culture...they're all also fairly common tropes for Atlantian intervention, some perhaps more common than the Aztecs.

of course, some of them appeared or "jumped forward" thousands of years after Atlantis supposedly went under; but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.

but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.

William: My old granddad used to say you can't stop a man who leans in and keeps coming. Atlantis is evidently a nagging sort of hole in human history for a lot of folk. Doesn't take anything away from any of the rest of us. Atlantis ain't going to climb over the fence and try to eat my Adams Diggings.

Atlantis is a harmless enough pursuit and it's got no teeth to be gnawing on the ankles of those of us with different ideosyncracies and compulsions.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Side thingie William, send me that birth date. Your natural curiosity will force you to ask how it can be done since it is in violaton of existing accepted theories.

Let's see just how close I can come with a psychological profile of someone that I have never met, simply by their birth date..

Some day we might get into a Case of one way telepathy that I experienced in my experiments.

For the moment Atlantis is at an active end, it is now up to someone in the scientific world with the ability to follow it up. The ground work has been done, some exposure has been made, the location is closely known now, it only remains for a robot and other equipment to be put down to confirm it.

Birth date and time William, nothing more.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Check on the post about finding the city under the ocean between Cuba and the Yucatan Aztlan? hmmmm. fits some stories.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Check on the post about finding the city under the ocean between Cuba and the Yucatan Aztlan? hmmmm. fits some stories.

Don Jose de La Mancha
****************************************************************************************
In 2002 a Canadian underwater exploration company called ADC (Advanced Digital Communications) claimed to have found the remains of an ancient city on the seabead, 2000 foot below the surface, in between Cuba and the Yucatan peninsula. Some photographs were published briefly on the Internet. The National Geographical Society, represented by Sylvia Earle, worked with ADC for a time in photographing the site.

ADC was one of four companies that had a contract with the Cuban government to seach the oceans around Cuba looking for shipwrecks, and they came across the sunken city while testing out their equipment. Looking at the subsurface geology, it seems that the Yukatan extended out towards Cuba at one time (and may have joined with Cuba). Large areas at the tip of this ancient peninsula would break off and slip into the ocean from time to time, and it is possible that one such area contained an ancient city, which now lies on the ocean floor.

I was in contact with ADC for a time because they had also found an old shipwreck just off Cabo San Antonio, the western tip of Cuba, which might well have been that of a Cortes ship that sank there in 1526. ADC's contract with Cuba apparently came to a halt because Cuba sold the exploration rights to the west of the Island to China, so they could search for oil, and that contract precluded any other form of underwater exploration.

I do not know what came of the film that was shot in conunction with National Geographic.

There is quite a bit about this still on the internet, and this can most easily be found by typing in the name of the Russian (ex-Russian) president of ADC, which is Paulina Zelitsky.

Now, whether this sunken city, if it exists, was Atalantis is another matter. Paulina was keen to play down that suggestion, which she rightly described as premature.

Mariner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dr Paul Weinzweig: " In our Cuban site the granite monolithic stones are foreign to the local marine and terrestrial geology."...
(...)
"At this stage in the investigations, we can only speculate that some features (such as temple foundations layouts) seem to be reproduced at our site. Since the ancients built their new structures on old structural sites, we really don't know their true antiquity...These megalithic granite stones are located miles from the nearest quarries. There is nothing in our understanding of ancient engineering and construction or in our present rational imagination to explain the logistics of such megalithic construction. There is much mystery here."...
(...)
Samples that we recovered from the ocean bottom have justified our structures that we call megalithic structures. The samples are granite stone, completely polished, with some incrustations of fossils. Fossils of organic creatures that normally live on the surface, not on the ocean bottom. This is very interesting because this is evidence that the whole surface sank to the depth of 700 meters (2,297 feet, or about a half mile down).
.........cont

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Yeah this is looking more Donnelly-sian by the minute.
The premise of numerous arguments for the lost continent/island generally run to the effect that a civilization like Atlantis and the disaster that did it in are much more plausable than we think.

There's really no reason why a given sufficiently advanced sunken city would have to Atlantis; since the general argument for Atlantis is that written language, advanced metallurgy, and engineering got started well before we typically think we do... proto-america could have had it's own sufficiently advanced culture.

You're going to have to be careful using Aztlan as a parallel to Atlantis. LOTS of cultures draw their ancestral rekoning from a distant Island, and Aztlan isn't necessarily a distant Island. There is absolutely flat-out no agreement (even within the legend itself) as to where Aztlan was, or even what it's environment was like...
Most importantly, the Aztec Migration from Aztlan happened much, much, much later than our typical date for the collapse of Atlantis.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO William: You posted-->

You're going to have to be careful using Aztlan as a parallel to Atlantis
~~~~~~~~~

Agreed, just posted a curious bit of data that I ran across that "Could" be easily applied to the Aztecs. Would kinda ruin the claims of the Latin groups in the US that want to take back the Western US by violence since they claim that was 'Aztlan, hehehe.

************************************************************************************

You also posted -->

Most importantly, the Aztec Migration from Aztlan happened much, much, much later than our typical date for the collapse of Atlantis
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again, I am in complete agreement.

Now send me that birth date so that we can stick pins in another branch of science.~!!!!!


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

Still trying to find it, huh? I don't think it will be found.

Hmmm. You're sneaking around thinking it really exists aren't you? I was afraid this was going to happen.

Ah well. Roll with it. If you get to thinking it exists and it doesn't it ain't as though anyone will ever know whether it did.

No big deal, though I'm a little disappointed with you and put out you didn't come right out and say you'd changed your mind.

Jack

No sneaking. Just observing and letting the know-it-alls battle it out on who is right and where it is at. Afraid of what was going to happen? Nothing? You can be disappointed all you want. No. I haven't changed my mind. I really don't think it exists as stated. I am merely interested in egos and attitudes of the self-absorbed. I'll let you guys find it. Ciao.

Brett: I guess I should have put [tongue in cheek] in parenthesis after my post. No point taking things so seriously amigo. If anyone on the thread wished you ill it shouldn't have drawn the kind of blood you're shedding and stewing in. I honestly don't believe anyone was unkind to you at all.

Hang in there
Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

Brett - I don't know what was posted that offended you, but please believe me no offense was intended, I apologize for what ever it was that rubbed you the wrong way. Your input and views are very welcome and helpful, and don't worry about bruising any egos - after all we are talking about a place that may not even exist. I want to add too that I certainly do NOT know it all, nor does anyone else here I am aware of. If you would rather not join in the discussion that is your prerogative, but know that no one has any kind of grudge against you nor is intending to insult or offend you. The beautiful images of Atlantis you posted certainly were appreciated too.

In any case good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco