Basic signs and symbols you have found

[Sheldon J]

So at last a rock is simply a rock, I was beginning to think every thing in the area was some kind of marker...

Novice here, limited experience with only a couple of books to reference. As I said I am at present close to 2,000 miles from that location, but it is on next years travel agenda.

Heck it took several trips and some good premium time with some of the older BTDT in the prospecting field simply to figure out what signs to look for when looking for gold...

Now because I am a dedicated shutter bug that shot a heap of photos during my mutiple trips (maybe that is why I did not have much success in finding any gold) along comes this Spanish marking thing and it is a whole new arena, you guys have forgotten more than I know so please forgive my ignorance.

 

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[rangler]

sheldon..
you said
",So at last a rock is simply a rock, I was beginning to think every thing in the area was some kind of marker..."

and I thought is was an interesting piece of rock , but saw no obvious signs or marks, later I looked at it again and saw the shadow owl at the top with what looks like a gunsight owl head..

mimic of the heart shadow gunsite on the site I marked for you...earlier
then the shadow bird looking right...an omega type mark. Then the rest of it came into view
the heart pointing down to the right, while the 7 that the owl gunsight points thru the 7
to the ground in front of the monument...pretty sure this is a rule breaker and or a false trail
or more likely the gun sight owl is pointing much further behind us...at you look at him...[I never advise climbing monuments, it is very dangerous and most of these are meant to be viewed from a distance anyway. as always more time spent on this pic will reveal more data
so far I have this....
1.heart
2.black dog
3.shadow bird
4. the "V"
5.white dog
6.shadow owl w/gunsight head
7. 7
alpha monument for sure,
the most subtle to date.
rangler
ed note, just now noticed a compass heading of 226 in the area between where the yellow and red line come together~!
so the lines where not used to point out a heading or the spot on the ground[i thought it broke the rules hehe.... , but the lines where used
to 'contain the digits...as the numbers are just above where the two lines cross..
nice, so that makes this another Master or Alpha Monument of the many that like Thom said...are here all together.
making two alphas so far in this area, and I am sure this means a very rich mine or mining area, that was mined on several expeditions over a long time period, decades or centuries later, however with the super subtly, I guess very near the expulsion of 1767
[I am sure not even the kings men could have found this one, so it may be intact]

 

[Sheldon J]

Whoa there rangler that is a heap of information on a rock it kind of blows my mind, and I really appreciate the date! Kind of wondered just how long ago all this happened, I have not posted (nor do I plan on) any of the photos of the cacti with the rings cut into them, (most are in the 300-400 year old range) and there are quite few (8-10) of them too!

So this all kind of fits in with the ages of the cacti and the rings I have found date wise that is. Not real sure just what all those rings mean for sure but it does build on and confirm the history of the location.

One of the interesting facts that I have came across is just how old some of these cacti are, most of the world including myself (mistakenly use to) think of them as 100 or less and that is way wrong! It just naws at me when I see where someone has used a old beauty for target practice!!

Again I say Damn but you guys are good!!!!

 

[hadji009]

kinda looks like a horse.

 

[Cleveland B.]

It seems in many monuments that the sculptors
hacked out the country rock
to form the neck contrasting
beneath the jaw.

 

[rangler]

sheldon,
"So this all kind of fits in with the ages of the cacti and the rings I have found date wise that is. Not real sure just what all those rings mean for sure but it does build on and confirm the history of the location."

the rings I have found, kenworthy called bands, and they go all the way around the base of the cactus,
and it means confirmation that the marks on this cacti are real and not accidental, also I believe it aided in finding them again, as some of the signs are small and easily missed.
also most cacti marks are the redundant set if they were spanish.
that date is the w.a.g., considering the latest year they could have made the monument, so in this case it could be within 50-100 years or so. still havent got a good date for when they started to tone down the monuments, then guess the most toned down would be at the end of their reign.
rangler

 

[Springfield]

..... I have not posted (nor do I plan on) any of the photos of the cacti with the rings cut into them, (most are in the 300-400 year old range) and there are quite few (8-10) of them too! .....

The folks who have studied saguaro cactii for many years, such as the Arizona Desert Museum, will tell you that this species begins life as a seed, takes 50-80 years to reach a height of 10 feet (mature), and has a maximum life expectancy of approximately 150 years (can be 50 feet high in extreme cases). Anyone who has been in the Sonoran desert has probably seen saguaros that have been carved, chopped, or otherwise marked - no doubt about it. However, these marks are most likely only 100 years old at the most. Why would you think these 8 or 10 cactii you have found could have survived two or three times longer than the rest of their kind? And why won't you post photos of them?

 

[rangler]

steve,
I believe we discussed this matter a few years ago - and you were very conservative about the oldest cacti then, and now you quote the museum which is ok but they are not the final authority on the matter, an easy google showed this right away

Suagaro National Park website http://www.coppercrest.com/saguaro2.html

"There are many huge saguaro cacti which mature very slowly. The seeds are tiny but numerous. One saguaro produces tens of thousands of seeds in a year, and over 30 million throughout its life. Perhaps one of these will grow to adulthood. In 25 years, they grow just 2 feet. Arms don't appear until the saguaro is about75 years old. Oldest saguaros reach 200 years, over 50 feet and 15,000 pounds. Supported by a strong frame of woody ribs, they grow in spurts, mainly during the summer rainy season. The cacti assume odd shapes, sometimes appearing almost human".

so here you see the national saguaro park website adds another 50 years to the life span that the museum quoted you...and if you take into consideration that individual saguaros could live 10-30% longer than normal, just like people..then you have 260 years right away, as a keenly possible timeline for cacti outside the normal life span. It does seem possible that 300 years for rare specimens is also possible making that around early to late 1700's the seminal century for such marks to be laid down...
I do see the possibility of some aged cacti still standing, holding their marks until this day.
much like the one I found here, over a decade ago~!
rangler

(c)copyright 2003-10 - all rights reserved-rangler
treasure sign cut into a saguaro, note: you cant see it inthe
photo but this cacti is 'banded' at the
bottom to show confirmation of the marks
[Tey tnahpele eht nees uoy evah]

 

[Springfield]

.... "There are many huge saguaro cacti which mature very slowly. The seeds are tiny but numerous. One saguaro produces tens of thousands of seeds in a year, and over 30 million throughout its life. Perhaps one of these will grow to adulthood. In 25 years, they grow just 2 feet. Arms don't appear until the saguaro is about 75 years old. Oldest saguaros reach 200 years, over 50 feet and 15,000 pounds.....

OK, 200 years for 'oldest'. Not all saguaros, but the 'oldest'. You can't add 30% to 'oldest'. So we have 200 (oldest) minus let's say 50 (age when cactus was marked) = 150 years ago they could have been marked (maximum). That would be 2011-150 = 1861 earliest date marks could have been made. Sounds like the Anglo pioneer era in Arizona, certainly not the era of the 'King's men' roaming the desert. Yes, your marked cactii could easily have been done by the early white guys settling the Arizona deserts. You should try to correlate the locations of your cactii with the earliest surveys in the area to determine if they lie on township lines, may have been backsight points, etc. Might save you time in the long run trying to pin it on the Jesuits.

 

[Shortstack]

Excellent points about survey marks, Springfield. When government surveyors were crawling all over the West, some could easily used a few of the larger cacti as locations of TEMPERARY benchmarks. They could make their turns and line extensions using those marks from a good distance off and it sure would save the Chainmen and Rodmen a lot of walking; especially in the high temps of summer. That would come in real handy for going AROUND a mountain instead of having to CLIMB the thing when laying out lines of survey. It's possible the surveyors would use ringed cacti as temporary turning points around the base of a hill or mountain and then pick up their line of survey on the other side. I'm not saying this is the ONLY explanation, but it is a viable one. If there are any PERMANENT benchmarks in the area, this idea could be checked if someone wanted to put in the time and effort to reshoot the line.

 

[rangler]

steve your reply...

OK, 200 years for 'oldest'. Not all saguaros, but the 'oldest'. You can't add 30% to 'oldest'. So we have 200 (oldest) minus let's say 50 (age when cactus was marked) = 150 years ago they could have been marked (maximum). That would be 2011-150 = 1861 earliest date marks could have been made. Sounds like the Anglo pioneer era in Arizona, certainly not the era of the 'King's men' roaming the desert. Yes, your marked cactii could easily have been done by the early white guys settling the Arizona deserts. You should try to correlate the locations of your cactii with the earliest surveys in the area to determine if they lie on township lines, may have been backsight points, etc. Might save you time in the long run trying to pin it on the Jesuits.

well it is still a far reach that a surveyor or whoever would use a cache symbol for his survey mark..naw aint biting on that one..stretched that one too thin amigo...

actually you are correct about the saguaro - the stats for extremely old cacti dont add up, therefore there must an answer to the marks, there are still many marked cacti in the supers area...
One thing that does come to mind, is that I found what I was calling the original mark...
a square cut into bedrock about 8" square, well , we saw in one day and could not find it the next...going up the trail, I see the cacti, thinking this has to be a redundant sign, ect...
but can it be of 18th century? I was pretty convinced in 03 that I was correct. Now I am more thinking that someone perhaps the kgc could have used this redundant marker, or is this a separate marker, as you can see the out of focus critter right between the two cacti...
If this cacti cant be old enough to have been marked by the jesuits....then did another group come along...by the way this is not far from the place where I and my partner found a anchor
sign that some say was made by Jessie James.

"That would be 2011-150 = 1861 earliest date marks could have been made. Sounds like the Anglo pioneer era in Arizona,

this might place it at the end of the civil war timeline and james, and the kgc...I have no proof at this time [other than the sign we found...about a mile from the cacti pictured here...but there is some reason that cache sign was carved on this cacti...
of course another trip to the supers is in order..too hot now this is a late fall, winter timeline.

this place is indeed very layered with all sorts of players lending their part to this pageantry in the desert - that is the supers
rangler

monument in the supers

(c)copyright 2003 all rights reserved-rangler

 

[Sheldon J]

Wow Curiouser and curiouser
And here I thought some of those old cacti with the 5 and 6 arms were significantly older than that..... But the survey lines do make sense, there are a few in the 100 year old range that have ring marks too...

 

[rangler]

sheldon
the cacti might not be old enough for the jesuits but not for the next players on the stage, outlaws and the kgc...which is my newest favorite thing to research and read up on...if you find a sign on a banded saguaro, dont dismiss it out of hand, and the kgc, did recover many jesuits sites and reburied them using some of the same marks...I saw that documentary on looking for jesse james treasure and right before they detected and found some gold and silver coins, from a broken mason jar, they showed the cliff face nearby and a clear square mark or sign was carved into the bedrock..same sign as is on my cacti..
always investigate further, as I will be doing
rangler

 

[Springfield]

....One thing that does come to mind, is that I found what I was calling the original mark...
a square cut into bedrock about 8" square, well , we saw in one day and could not find it the next...going up the trail, I see the cacti, thinking this has to be a redundant sign, ect...
but can it be of 18th century? I was pretty convinced in 03 that I was correct. Now I am more thinking that someone perhaps the kgc could have used this redundant marker, or is this a separate marker, as you can see the out of focus critter right between the two cacti...
If this cacti cant be old enough to have been marked by the jesuits....then did another group come along...by the way this is not far from the place where I and my partner found a anchor
sign that some say was made by Jessie James.

"That would be 2011-150 = 1861 earliest date marks could have been made. Sounds like the Anglo pioneer era in Arizona,

this might place it at the end of the civil war timeline and james, and the kgc...I have no proof at this time [other than the sign we found...about a mile from the cacti pictured here...but there is some reason that cache sign was carved on this cacti.....

Well, rangler, I'm surprised at you. You seem like you're almost ready to finally leave all this Spanish/Jesuit foolishness behind and move up the ladder. By the way, those KGC guys on TV with the jar of coins were frauds, so don't waste too much time on them (my opinion only).

 

[rangler]

steve.
easy big fellow, just because I conceded your statistical point doesn't mean I am capitulating the whole theory of the jesuits!!

in fact, I want to thank you for tirelessly pointing out the weaker
parts of the whole theory...however misplaced [some of it might be],
but it does pay benefits to look at things in a different way...you first
pointed out that lots of people were marking trail markers as treasure signs,
and lots more where marking or getting lost in pareidolia. My exposing
pareidolia exposed those that could not move on to the real signs,...my
study on the 'trail markers' intensified...and soon the code was breaking and

was falling into place, so really I have to thank you there as well...

And now case in point, as I held on to my belief that the jesuits
could have marked these cacti, it kept me from seeing who else
was a player on the scene...bingo, kgc and the outlaw types...while
it is fair to have someone around who keeps things straight, if you pay
attention to my markings, you too will move past a place where your belief
is holding you back, agreed?

and the guys with the jar of coins may be frauds in your opinion...thats ok..
I saw the mark on the cliff face, they showed it twice...then the metal detector
found the coins..I dont care how skeptical you are, if you would have seen that
episode and you knew the mark was a cache sign [i hope you do now] you too
would have put it together yourself, as I did!

I was hoping that you could see the logic and truth of the broken codes as I have
marked them for people all over the net...it is not hard really, once the elements
are known, and the attributes of the critters is common knowledge for the most
part, you can see their logic, plain as day expressed in the way they put these
monument together...besides that if you have any monuments of your own,
I am sure you would want them decoded...so you can have your own proof...well in hand

- I am not afraid to concede well made points....are you?
rangler


Happy 235th Birthday America, a dream brought to you by the sacrifices of the us armed forces since 1776!

 

[Old Dog]

Ran across a picture of a range marker and the trailhead monument that follows it.
Just for your viewing pleasure.

 

[rangler]

nice classic trail head monument...

thanks for posting the pic Thom...text book example~!
rangler

 

[Springfield]

steve.
easy big fellow, just because I conceded your statistical point doesn't mean I am capitulating the whole theory of the jesuits!!

But you are learning, slowly. It's OK - you've got plenty of time. Too bad there's not a 12-step program available for you. Well, most addicts who have kicked the habit will tell you that the light has to shine from the inside.

and the guys with the jar of coins may be frauds in your opinion...thats ok.. I saw the mark on the cliff face, they showed it twice...then the metal detector found the coins..I dont care how skeptical you are, if you would have seen that episode and you knew the mark was a cache sign [i hope you do now] you too would have put it together yourself, as I did!

I didn't say that some of the concepts they were pushing weren't valid. I'm saying that the characters involved weren't forthcoming with their staged TV show. This episode has been thoroughly dissected on one of the KGC threads - those who care can look into it. Just like carved 'Spanish' signs, the 'KGC' researchers need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I was hoping that you could see the logic and truth of the broken codes as I have marked them for people all over the net...it is not hard really, once the elements are known, and the attributes of the critters is common knowledge for the most part, you can see their logic, plain as day expressed in the way they put these monument together...besides that if you have any monuments of your own, I am sure you would want them decoded...so you can have your own proof...well in hand- I am not afraid to concede well made points....are you?
rangler

Fortunately, I was born with a mind that accepts darn near everything we believe in as a working model only, subject to correction on an ongoing basis. You are finding a few good things out there now and then, but for the most part your analysis seems to be self-serving. If you can demonstrate that your methods are as you claim, I'll climb onboard. A building is only as stable as the foundation it's built on, and yours is built on sand so far. Of course, as always, I could be wrong.

 

[Old Dog]

It is always "good tv" when the signs lead to something

But in my 'rarely to be humble opinion'....
to stage that "found" item prior to the filming for "your viewing pleasure", amounts to fraud.
The history channel has been exposed doing this before.

I have jars that do date back that far, some were dug and others not.
almost all have a scaly type crazing on the glass, and the glass is blueish NOT colorless.
that was my first clue...

 

[RockHopper2]

And the coins were to clean.