Beale Poll....Fact or Fiction?

[Rebel - KGC]

NO ONE has solved 1 or 3... BUGGER OFF!

 

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[bigscoop]

Good point!
"Exactly" the point!
And yet, if the ciphers have no truth then there is no truth to any of it.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Oh, you can "ask around" here, do R & I "locally", and get a DIFFERENT "sense" of what REALLY happened; y'all keep on trying to figure out the ciphers; will keep ya BUSY for a LONG time.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

NO ONE has solved 1 or 3... BUGGER OFF!

(BUGGER ON) That's the reason they need more time spent on them. If they had been solved, then that's when you wouldn't need to spend anymore time on them. Not until. (BUGGER BACK OFF).

 

[bigscoop]

Oh, you can "ask again" here, do R & I "locally", and get a DIFFERENT "sense" of what REALLY happened; y'all keep on trying to figure out the ciphers; will keep ya BUSY for a LONG time.

Yes, I agree 100%. When you investigate locally you certainly get an entirely different sense of what they say really happened. No truer words were ever spoken.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

YEP! GOOD enough for ME!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The END is near! (Speaking in Ed Sullivan voice)... "Un NOW! For the REST of the SHEW! ROY DALLAS! Put your hands together, for ROY DALLAS!" The Beale Treasure

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Looks like we will never hear from Roy Dallas again.

MAYBE... dunno.

 

[monroe35]

Hi, bigscoop. Hoax or no hoax-how many times that has been argued. I suggest anyone interested in the Beale treasure story read the Beale Treasure Story:the Hoax Theory Deflated and the companion book The Beale Treasure Story: New Insights by Stephen M. Matyas, Jr. that gives an excellent summary of all known information about the Beale treasure up until it was published in 2011. You can see free information on his webites. Just type in "the Beale Treasure Story" and look around. I had a book published about the same time; however, it was classified as historical fiction and probably no researchers picked up on it. I believe in the story as I answered in your poll. I will explain why in a later thread. Monroe35

 

[bigscoop]

Monroe35,

Looking forward to the new thread and hopefully some fresh thoughts and documentation of the subject.

PS: Familiar with the book you referenced, but "way too much" speculation in the opinions and conclusions offered on that website for me.

 

[monroe35]

Thanks for the git-back, bigscoop. I'm in agreement with your assessment of the books, but I still think they present a good summary of the information. I think it's time to move away from "1's and o's". These codes will not be solved by computers. My approach for over 30 years is to evaluate the man, his skills, his environment, his knowledge and what tools did he have to use. I hope what I share will generate some fresh thinking about the subject. monroe 35

 

[bigscoop]

Here's the first two facts that have to be realized:

1) At the very least, the author of the pamphlet had prior knowledge as to which cipher was 1 and which one was 3. Prior to his numbering the ciphers by length they had no known order, yet simply by their length were they assigned an order of 1,2,3. By the author. Not only would it have been impossible then for the clear text of C2 to reference cipher “1”, but it would also be impossible for the pamphlet author to reference either of the remaining ciphers as being cipher 1, “the location of the vault”, and cipher 3 as being “the residences”. In reality, by his own testimonial, he would have no way of knowing which of the two remaining ciphers was 1 or 3, the vault location or residences, even after he numbered them, and yet he knows without question which of the remaining two ciphers contains the location of the vault and which one contains the residences. No matter how people wish to twist it the author had to, at the very least, had prior knowledge, period! Determining anything else is just wishful thinking.

2) Thomas Beale could not have spent “eighteen months or more” in the mountains and still been in Virginia by the following deposit date, unless of course, once in Santa Fe he began traveling by modern passenger planes. According to his own testimonial, while still in Santa Fe, he didn’t even hear back from the party until around May, and from there he gathered provisions and set out to find them, so at the best he arrived there close to Mid-May or June, 1818. If we add 18 months to this timeline we arrive at right around November - December, 1819, and this is without any travel time on the return trip. The first deposit is said to have been made, November, 1819. “Impossible!” It had taken them nine months to go from Virginia to Santa Fe, and yet we are expected to believe he made the journey back, heavily loaded, as if he was driving a modern commercial simi-truck non stop cross-country on interstates and freeways. If you believe the adventure portion of the Beale story as it is written then I have a beautiful tropical beach to sell you at a great price in Nome, Alaska! Remember, this timeline is presented within alleged Thomas Beale letters that the author of the pamphlet is presenting to you, so it is the author who is presenting the timeline as being an accurate testimonial, not me. Problem is, that testimonial was an impossible feat, period! Here again, people can twist this anyway they like, but the fact remains, it was an impossible feat as it is told.

The above examples are two “facts” that cannot be ignored and any attempt in doing so is simply chasing a fantasy despite the facts. However, this isn’t to say that the entire story is without any measure of truth. All these two examples prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that the author created the Beale letters and that the adventure portion of the story was impossible. So, if there is to be any truth, or possibility of an actual treasure, then that treasure had to have come from a different source that needed to be shied away from. If this is not the case then the entire story is simply a “factional” dime novel. Period! So, if people want to believe there is/was a treasure then they'd better start looking for a different source of that treasure that needed to remain untold at the time of the pamphlet publication.

 

[monroe35]

Once again, I agree with your item #1. Your note agrees with my theory which I will explain later but, you might want to reconsider your item 2. Thomas Jefferson in his Notes on the State of Virginia in his discussion about rivers states that from the "Mouth of the Ohio to Santa Fe is 40 days journey and about 1,000 miles." Jefferson had access to information from his agent in New Orleans Daniel Clark, Jr. who was well-informed about the Red River basin and Indian activity; and Captain Philip Nolan who moved among the Indian tribes "in pursuit of horse herds." Nolan was a protege of General James Wilkinson. Nolan made maps which found their way to Jefferson. Other authorities state that a fast rider could go from Santa Fe to Saint Louis in about 30 days. I think Tom took such a long time to get to Santa Fe because he was doing other things, like - maybe exploring the Red River Valley to the North to gather information about the British presence there and to check out the proposed boundary line dividing the two countries. Treaty agreement was eminent. Spanish movement from Santa Fe to St. Louis was usually East following the Canadien River to its big bend then North through Oklahoma. Of course the Santa Fe Trail was available or through the mountains by way of the Trappers Trail. I have been on both of these trails. Most all Indian tribes knew the routes because of trading and pilfering especially horses. Monroe35

 

[bigscoop]

Once again, I agree with your item #1. Your note agrees with my theory which I will explain later but, you might want to reconsider your item 2. Thomas Jefferson in his Notes on the State of Virginia in his discussion about rivers states that from the "Mouth of the Ohio to Santa Fe is 40 days journey and about 1,000 miles." Jefferson had access to information from his agent in New Orleans Daniel Clark, Jr. who was well-informed about the Red River basin and Indian activity; and Captain Philip Nolan who moved among the Indian tribes "in pursuit of horse herds." Nolan was a protege of General James Wilkinson. Nolan made maps which found their way to Jefferson. Other authorities state that a fast rider could go from Santa Fe to Saint Louis in about 30 days. I think Tom took such a long time to get to Santa Fe because he was doing other things, like - maybe exploring the Red River Valley to the North to gather information about the British presence there and to check out the proposed boundary line dividing the two countries. Treaty agreement was eminent. Spanish movement from Santa Fe to St. Louis was usually East following the Canadien River to its big bend then North through Oklahoma. Of course the Santa Fe Trail was available or through the mountains by way of the Trappers Trail. I have been on both of these trails. Most all Indian tribes knew the routes because of trading and pilfering especially horses. Monroe35

Even at 40 days the return trip could not have been made on time. The timeline in the pamphlet is presented by the author, as being quoted/displayed in a letter supposedly written by a TJB, and yet the trip could not have been done in the time presented. There is no getting around this fact based on the information presented. As for fast riders and 30 days, fast riders do not include heavy loads of metals. Look, I would love to believe the adventure portion of the story was true but even the presented facts clearly say otherwise. I even looked into the possible use of a steamship from St. Louis on the return trip, but this still presented an impossible feat. At some point people have to look at the facts, it just wasn't possible.

 

[bigscoop]

There is also one other hugely denied fact that is presented in the following statement in regards to Thomas Beale; "His character soon became universally known....."

I submit to you; if this is the case then why, "after 125 years of searching, has nobody been able to find a trace of this "universally known" character?" Answer; because he never existed in the capacity as he is described in the story. Given the exposure this mystery has received and the amount of intense research that has been applied, and yet NOTTA, NOTHING, other then a lot of wild speculation as to who he might have been. Certainly there was nothing that was universally known about this "character". Just another fact that can't be denied.

 

[bigscoop]

Myself, I still believe there is a possible chance that your two "facts" above were still possible.

First, the three cipher codes were on eight sheets of paper normally I can not see how the author or agent for the author could have known which of the eight sheets went with the others to form Cipher #1, Cipher #2, and Cipher #3. There had to be something that differentiated each page from the others--------so maybe they were already numbered one, two and three and the author simply traced them. I know the story says he numbered the pages according to their lengths but still he had to have some way to know where each cipher started and the other ended or he would have #1 mixed up with #2 or #3 or...........well you know how 8 sheets could be mixed up.

Second on the time line or the 18 months or more. Now TJB says they reached Sante Fe on December 1st, 1817 and in early March, 1818 some of the men went on an excursion gone for a month or more.--------Say for reference early March as March 1st, 1818 and a month or more April 1st, 1818. Now the men found gold about 250 to 300 miles North of Sante Fe this is about 9 days travel if you are in a hurry you could make that journey in 6 days. So now we have April 7 when TJB arrives at the site.

Alright a month and one-half already accumulating the gold and silver------So when TJB says this went on for 18 months or more -------he was really saying 16 months and one-half or more. This agrees with TJB saying that it was mid-Summer when the question came up about where they should store the treasure in a more secure place. This would have been the latter end of July or early August. Alright say TJB and his men leave on August 1st. 1819. They still had time to get to Buford's Tavern by November, 1819 when the first Deposit was made. Here he does not say 1st of November or 30 of November, 1819. From August 1st to November 30th is 91 days if TJB meant the middle of Summer as July 15 then he would have had another 16 days or 107 days to make the journey.

When John Bell left Pike's Peak in 1820, he went from there to Washington, D.C. in 126 days with many lay overs and stops along the way. At one place Fort Smith he stayed for 10 days in a couple more when he met up with Indians he stayed two times for 3 days each. All the while they had to hunt their own food and this took time also. If TJB and his men had provisions there is no reason they could not make the journey in 107 days or even if they left August 1st they still had 96 days. John Bell traveled on to Washington City this took him another 12 to 16 days subtracting that plus his lay overs of 16 days, John Bell could have made his trip in as little as 94 to 98 days well within TJB's timeline.

Franklin you are simply altering the details in the story to the point that the story, as it is presented, is in fact, "false". By your own statement you are testifying that the story is false as it was written. You are also including notions that are not presented in the story, such as 8 pieces of paper instead of three, and yet you can only quote word of mouth speculation and "zero" evidence to any of it. Your own research and what you present here only serves to strengthen the case that a great deal of the story if false. It certainly is not strengthening the evidence that the story is accurate and factual as it was presented. Quite the opposite.

PS: In the case of Bell, add the load of metal, reducing his speed by at least half, and now double his travel time. 126 days is three months, which using the information in the pamphlet still has him arriving long after the deposit date. Face it, it was an impossible feat, by a long shot.

 

[Justintime]

1. Separate the pamphlet, a. The info that was in the box, letters ,code b. The info given from Morriss, Ward. 2. The eighteen months is the time spent on,e Enlarging, the already made vault. The increased metal supply, more than expected, deposit two. The trip west,was impossible,in time given,cause he's not talkn bout out west. Lol The info given in letters,are solid. Once you have the key, it all becomes intelligible. The info is for the key,holder. So ,I understand yor points,soon you all will know. Your will need to hit reset. Justintime

 

[bigscoop]

1. Separate the pamphlet, a. The info that was in the box, letters ,code b. The info given from Morriss, Ward. 2. The eighteen months is the time spent on,e Enlarging, the already made vault. The increased metal supply, more than expected, deposit two. The trip west,was impossible,in time given,cause he's not talkn bout out west. Lol The info given in letters,are solid. Once you have the key, it all becomes intelligible. The info is for the key,holder. So ,I understand yor points,soon you all will know. Your will need to hit reset. Justintime

Evidently, you've not read the reply from the photo source. "No letters or numbers found on the print."

 

[Justintime]

I can see letters with nothing done to the photo. I have seen,the enhancements by Franklin. I've seen it. So I'm going to call BS,on you sending my photo off to,your buddy. Lol..good try..Justintime

 

[bigscoop]

I can see letters with nothing done to the photo. I have seen,the enhancements by Franklin. I've seen it. So I'm going to call BS,on you sending my photo off to,your buddy. Lol..good try..Justintime

Hey, it's your imagination, play with it however you like.