best head ever found.need help indentifying. got some better pics up.

[dustintimmons_83]

found this at one of my new spots. cant really tell what it is. knife,spearhead ?

 

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[dustintimmons_83]

thank you, i cant it believe either,ive only found a few full points in the field,thats y im moving on to the cricks.it sounds harder,but its worth the pay out.if i can just figure it out.

 

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[ivan salis]

spearhead or knife either way --- its old indain, collectible and cool as heck --

 

[dustintimmons_83]

i would never let this get away from me,but does anyone know what somthing like this is worth.just wondering.

 

[Neanderthal]

The majority of what we find are knives or scraping / cutting implements. In fact, only a small percentage were probably ever made for the sole purpose of being a projectile. The large, cumbersome "spears" that are portrayed so often really weren't used to much extent. Think about it, they wouldn't be too awful functional.

There are too many falsehoods that have been perpetuated for a long time revolving around them... We still get images of fuzzy men running around with big sticks poking at big furry elephants and risking life & limb. They were much more intelligent than that and a more likely scenario was that they would make use of natural (or fabricated) traps to help take big peanut munchers, and the same for much later aboriginals also.

The atlatl was an ingenious device that was used in paleo up into historic times. It had a small "dart" head and was pretty much your original "repeating spear".

For the record, a Robbins is of the Adena culture - yours is classic form for the type.

As far as worth....well, as much as someone's willing to pay. Overstreet's is a joke and I don't recommend using their prices as a guideline. Ebay is a bit better place to see current market values online. Even better, go to local shows or artifact auctions in your area.

 

[bean man]

I believe at some point the spear became a lance or thrusting weapon, more as it was used by the paleo guys, in which a larger head was desired.

 

[Neanderthal]

Bean, the larger items that are found on paleo indian sites (which aren't many) are typically knives and show use wear as such. Atlatl were in practice in paleo indian times and they employed smaller heads (such as folsom, clovis, etc). Large knives are often mistaken for "spears" and in actually could have served double purpose, but that would've taken one helluva foreshaft. Aboriginals were far from stupid, and didn't go poking on no elephants with a "thrusting spear" whenever they got hungry. Atlatl were far superior and in use at that time (although I still believe making use of their environment in natural traps was more of the norm). The most common items we find one any site are generally Knives and scrapers. If we find a large knife that hasn't been subjected to many resharpenings, they commonly are mistaken for spearheads. Also, remember that what is more typically found are exhausted specimens. Lucking upon an early stage tool is an exception, definately not a rule.

 

[bean man]

Maybe thrusting spears were just the thing for dispatching trapped mega fauna. All I'm saying is that even though the thrusting spear was probably used to some degree the whole time, it appears to have most its use early and late. The latter use being for war.

 

[Neanderthal]

Bean, check out artifacts found in association with known megafauna kill sites.

Ok, let me try to simplify. If they had the atlatl available to them, don't you think they would use it to it's potential? It is able to fly further, penetrate deeper, it's reloadable, can be used at a greater distance..etc, etc. To say that they would use a thrusting spear in lieu would be similar to taking a knife to a gunfight.

After the quarry was dispatched, then knives and large blades would become a necessity. It's been shown that some smaller points in fact were used also as cutting implements, but flint cutting implements dull quickly and would need several resharpenings (thus a larger one that would last longer would be more appreciated). I have done alot of experimental archaeology, including butchering different animals with flint tools...learned quite a bit from the experiences.

Here's a sidenote, arrows sometimes also were used to "cut" with. I have found many that exhibit use wear and resharpening characteristic of have been used as a knife. Necessity is the mother of invention and whatever they had available to them at the time is what was used.

 

[bean man]

So what your saying is the large Clovis where knifes and the smaller ones atlatl? Why couldn't they of done the same thing with their spears, as they did later with arrows? Thanks. Not trying to make you mad Matt, I just love this stuff.

 

[Neanderthal]

Bean, doing the same thing? You mean use them as knives? I'm sure they definately could. The point I'm trying to make is that long "spears" weren't really a necessity for most of the folks since they had the atlatl. The atlatl was so popular and effective that it was used well into historic times. There are reports of aboriginals down south of the border using them to take waterfowl with, and this isn't long ago at all. For time reference, the earliest date for atlatl is Solutrean and over 17,000 years ago (France).

Alot of the problem lies in the way people in the new world are perceived as compared to ancestors from other continents. We see images all over the place of furry dudes who grunt alot and carry spears, and that's what we think of most of the past cultures. Paleo man in the new world was far from that.

You aren't making me mad at all, I love discussing it too. Usually I'm far too lazy to post on the topics though, I guess it's all the caffeine I've had today....LOL

 

[bean man]

Thanks Matt. This may not be right, but here is what I was thinking. The atlatl was far superior to arm throwing a spear, but did it create more penetration then a long spear being thrust by one or more guys? I wouldn't think so. A long spear would give you exact vital placement, on a trapped animal and still provide a certain amount of distance and the thrust,the penetration to get through those massive hides. Or, maybe the bean brain is trying to think to much.

 

[Neanderthal]

I never get accused of thinking too much

The atlatl is alot more powerful than what you're thinking. The darts can reach well over 6'+, and the power they have is devastating. My son is 12 years old, and he throws an atlatl. The tip (foreshaft) of his atlatl is made of bois d'arc (osage orange wood) and he can stick that wooden tipped dart into a tree so hard that you have one helluva hard time pulling it out. They have MUCH more power and kinetic energy than bow & arrow, and reach quite a ways. I have a friend who flings his 100 yards on a regular basis.

 

[bean man]

That's really cool. I'd like to get into that. We have a lot of hedgeball trees in Iowa. Maybe sometime you could post an atlatl and spear. Thanks Matt.