Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[ECS]

ECS...what in all of your fantastical magical family connections theory can you actually directly connect to the pamphlet? ... Might it just all be "creative speculation and conjecture?" Yes, that's all it is, period!...

A lot more than you Laflin Lafitte, Bonapartist, Champ d' Asile, Olive and Vine Colony, Adams-Onis Treaty Girard, Patterson, Mathew "Mexico" Sherman and the good ship Torpedo in the opium trade with China, an English Beale and Mexican wife with Mexican land grants, New Orleans, Galveston, slave trade, "hidden families", a free born man of color who became a Jackson Ward Alderman, and John Wilkes Booth theory which provided the heartiest of laughs are ALL fantastical connections that are not directly connected to Ward's 1885 Beale Papers dime novel and are creative speculation and conjecture of your making, and none of it is relevant to the Beale story.
As much as you make lite of the Risqué extended family bloodline in it influence in the Beale story presented in the narrative text, as well as other sources that were available from Risque's "fabulous library" as well as from WARD & DIGGS BOOKSELLERS( ie Poe, William Clark and E F Beale journals) to the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN's April 16, 1879 story of the discovery of Robert O Willis treasure of $65,000 of gold, silver, and jewelry in a Kentucky cave.
Yes, Bigscoop, all these connections influenced the Beale story in the job pamphlet, and as hard as you try to dismiss this, you continue to fail completely in that endeavor, just as you fail to connect any of your theories to Ward. to the "unknown author", to the story presented in the Beale Papers.
You can not disprove these influences connections.
Why, because the 1885 Beale Papers was a work of fiction, a dime novel with parlor entertainment ciphers, and that, my friend, you have agreed to every time you post these historical grab bag story behind the Beale story theories.

 

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[ECS]

... I've lost count of the number of wasted post you've exhausted on this thread alone just trying to prevent me from posting what you now say you want to hear? In fact, you've tried everything in your power to prevent this thread from progressing forward thank heavens there's still emails and PMs for those who really do want to know, hear it.

I have lost count of the number of times I asked you to provide actual connections of these historical grab bag theories to the "unknown author", Ward or to the job pamphlets presented Beale story.
As for those who "really want to know" it seems that those PM's are just a continuation of the same and no connection to Ward or the "unknown authors" Beale story in the job pamphlet has been brought forth.

 

[ARC]

Why "job" pamphlet references ?
Did I miss something (obviously) ? heh

 

[bigscoop]

I have lost count of the number of times I asked you to provide actual connections of these historical grab bag theories to the "unknown author", Ward or to the job pamphlets presented Beale story.
As for those who "really want to know" it seems that those PM's are just a continuation of the same and no connection to Ward or the "unknown authors" Beale story in the job pamphlet has been brought forth.

I'm actually pretty happy with the way this thread has gone, first setting out to tell you what you want to know which would answers your questions, and then, due to the constant pointless post in pursuit of argument in an effort to derail the course of the thread, something I was fully prepared for, I deciding to play the game that some posters routinely start, exposing them a bit more along the way, and then playing their game by presenting just enough for those who want to broaden their horizons for themselves, which some are doing. There is more then enough info in this thread now for those who want to look for a few things, and for those who don't, and never will....so be it. So let's let things ride for a while, see who discovers what and who discovers nothing.....think it will be interesting. I'm in rush......

 

[ECS]

This game is not worth the candle.

 

[ECS]

Why "job" pamphlet references ?
Did I miss something (obviously) ? heh

The 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet was printed at the Virginia Print Shop which was part of Charles W Button's LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN newspaper, at which Ward's cousin, John William Sherman, who printed the job pamphlet, worked as sub-editor.

 

[bigscoop]

The 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet was printed at the Virginia Print Shop which was part of Charles W Button's LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN newspaper, at which Ward's cousin, John William Sherman, who printed the job pamphlet, worked as sub-editor.

To which John Sherman's uncle, Mathew "Mexico" Sherman, was captain of the ship Torpedo, which routinely sailed from the US to South America and also visited Galveston Island at least on one occasion. This same Sherman later moved (in about 1816-17) from Virginia to near the French exiles Vine and Olive colony, the same French exiles who eventually established themselves at Champ D'Asile in Texas in 1818, this process having been begun in 1817 just as all of the other moves at/to Galveston Island were being orchestrated. Mathew Sherman is just one of several from the same Virginia region who can be associated with these insurgencies into Texas.

 

[ECS]

...and still, John William Sherman's uncle "Mexico" and Patterson's good ship TORPEDO have nothing to do with the "unknown author" giving James Beverly Ward a handwritten manuscript of the Beale Papers for War to copyright with only the title and hand over the manuscript to his cousin Sherman to print copies at the Virginia Print Shop.
Sherman is just one of several names you have attempted to force into the Beale story to fit this current pet theory.

 

[ECS]

While there exist no evidence outside of the Beale Papers story that can confirm that Beale ever stayed at the Washington Hotel or Buford's, or that Morriss showed an "unknown author" the "letters" that the entire story is based, what is known is that if the "unknown author did approach James Beverly Ward with a manuscript, the entire story in that manuscript is based on hearsay of this author.
It is interesting that the manuscript states that this "unknown author" had already chosen the person to act as his copyright agent.

With that said, the only known facts concerning the BEALE PAPERS:
James Beverly Ward copyrighted the work with only the title on borrowed ADAMS BROS & PAYNE letterhead, a company at which his son-in-law worked.
Ward's cousin , John William Sherman, printed the job pamphlet from a supplied manuscript at the Virginia Print Shop, part of LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN newspaper company at which Sherman was a sub-editor.
The Beale Papers were advertised for sale ONLY in the Lynchburg Virginian, and newspaper owner, Charles W Button stated that his employee, Sherman was the author.
Copies of the Beale Papers were sold at Max Guggenheimer's Lynchburg store, Guggenheimer being the ONLY person mentioned in the Beale Papers that was living at the time of publication.
The Beale Papers was published a year after Francis Buford, wife of Pascal Buford who died in 1875, the last person who could confirm or deny Beale's stay at Buford's mentioned in the "letters".
Unsold copies of the Beale Papers were destroyed in a fire after the descendants of Withcher, Clay ,and Coles, who were mention in the job pamphlet complained about their use in a dime novel.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Beale PAPERS Pamphlet was published in 1885; the year that unknown "Head" author Maj. FC Hutter died of a Heart Attack... John P. Risque (brother of James B. Risque) died in 1884. JBR's grand-kids did it, well... is "The Circle" unbroken...? Bye & Bye...

 

[ECS]

... John P. Risque (brother of James B. Risque) died in 1884...

Massacred by Native Americans in Gold Gulch, Arizona while inspecting gold and silver mines, another Risque extended family bloodline reference to be found in the job pamphlet'

"During this period rumors of Indian outrages and massacres were current, but no mention of Beale's name occurred".- THE BEALE PAPERS

 

[Rebel - KGC]

TRUE, AUTHENTIC Events... utilized by the The "Inner Committee", reporting to Maj. FC Hutter, CSA & as interviewed by John W. Sherman (Sub-Editor "under" Charlie Button, Editor) & published in 1885. It DID "excite" MANY ppl in Lynchburg, Va. & WORLD-WIDE... TODAY! Heh...

 

[ECS]

TRUE, AUTHENTIC Events... utilized by the The "Inner Committee", reporting to Maj. FC Hutter, CSA & as interviewed by John W. Sherman (Sub-Editor "under" Charlie Button, Editor) & published in 1885. It DID "excite" MANY ppl in Lynchburg, Va. & WORLD-WIDE... TODAY! Heh...

"Knowledge of this affair was confined to a very limited circle-to the writer's..."
F C Hutter
"...immediate family..."
James Beverly Ward
Harriet Otey Ward
John William Sherman
"...and to one old and valued friend". -The BEALE PAPERS
Max Guggenheimer

 

[ECS]

Ward's wife, Harriet Buford Otey, was born and raised four miles from Buford's.
"I have deposited in the county of Bedford, about four miles from Buford's".- The BEALE PAPERS

"Stopping at Buford's where we remained a month..."-The BEALE PAPERS
What would seem to be easy to verify during the "2nd tear of the Confederate War", wasn't, and Ward waited until the last person who could verify this stay,, Pascal Buford's wife , Francis, passed away before applying for copyright of these "authentic statements" with ONLY the title of the work.
After publication, when the children of the Buford's were asked about the Beale stay mentioned in the job pamphlet, Rowland D Buford, who was Bedford county clerk, and his sisters, all stated that their was NO family history of Beale's stay and had NO knowledge of Beale or the treasure story until the publication of the BEALE PAPERS in 1885.

 

[ECS]

... I'm curious as to how ECS can deduce that Ward and others wrote the pamphlet using various materials from grandpa Risque's fabulous library when he can't even place those people and those materials in that alleged fabulous library?...

After James Beverly Risque's death, Ward's father, Giles , who was partners in Lynchburg's WARD & DIGGS BOOKSELLERS, inherited Risque's "fabulous" library.
The library consisted of letters, including his correspondence concerning a Florida appointment after the Adams-Onis Treaty, law books, the works of Shakespeare, English and early American literature and poetry, including 1809 US edition of ABRAHAN REE's CYCLOPEDIA which included Dr William Blair's "Writing in Cipher".
It should be noted that Giles Ward and John William Sherman (Ward's cousin who printed the Beale Papers) were both members of the LYNCHBURG THESPIANS theatre group, were both well versed in Shakespeare and Elizabethan poetry. Sherman also wrote plays for the local acting group.

"The game is worth the candle, and we will play it to the end"- The BEALE PAPERS.
This is a reference to a phrase from Shakespeare's TWO MEN FROM VERONA, a play about a man banished from his home because of a duel, a heroine named Julia, and a missing letter.( A veiled reference to J B Risque's duel with Thomas Beale over Julia Hancock)
A letter that never arrived is also mentioned in the Beale Papers.

"I beg that you will not allow any false punctilio to prevent your receiving and appropriating the portion to yourself"- The BEALE PAPERS
The first usage of punctilio in the English language was in Sir John Harington's 1596 THE METAMORPHOSIS OF AJAX, a satirical treatise on the toilet (Harington invented the flush toilet) but was a coded allegory attack on the monarchy and politics. Harington was a member of Elizabeth's court.
The first usage of punctilio in America was the colonial work of Thomas Morton, "On The Punctilio Of The Savage" which appeared in the collection entitled "New English Canaan".
That story involves the daughter of the sagamore of the Merrimac River Territories.

 

[franklin]

After James Beverly Risque's death, Ward's father, Giles , who was partners in Lynchburg's WARD & DIGGS BOOKSELLERS, inherited Risque's "fabulous" library.
The library consisted of letters, including his correspondence concerning a Florida appointment after the Adams-Onis Treaty, law books, the works of Shakespeare, English and early American literature and poetry, including 1809 US edition of ABRAHAN REE's CYCLOPEDIA which included Dr William Blair's "Writing in Cipher".
It should be noted that Giles Ward and John William Sherman (Ward's cousin who printed the Beale Papers) were both members of the LYNCHBURG THESPIANS theatre group, were both well versed in Shakespeare and Elizabethan poetry. Sherman also wrote plays for the local acting group.

"The game is worth the candle, and we will play it to the end"- The BEALE PAPERS.
This is a reference to a phrase from Shakespeare's TWO MEN FROM VERONA, a play about a man banished from his home because of a duel, a heroine named Julia, and a missing letter.( A veiled reference to J B Risque's duel with Thomas Beale over Julia Hancock)
A letter that never arrived is also mentioned in the Beale Papers.

"I beg that you will not allow any false punctilio to prevent your receiving and appropriating the portion to yourself"- The BEALE PAPERS
The first usage of punctilio in the English language was in Sir John Harington's 1596 THE METAMORPHOSIS OF AJAX, a satirical treatise on the toilet (Harington invented the flush toilet) but was a coded allegory attack on the monarchy and politics. Harington was a member of Elizabeth's court.
The first usage of punctilio in America was the colonial work of Thomas Morton, "On The Punctilio Of The Savage" which appeared in the collection entitled "New English Canaan".
That story involves the daughter of the sagamore of the Merrimac River Territories.

Giles Ward was also an attorney and was made a member of the bar in 1822, the year James Beverly Ward was born and the year the iron box was left with Robert Morris. All of the History of Lynchburg and the History of the Family of Ward and Kin are the makes of the Book of the Beale Papers in the Job Print Pamphlet. It has nothing to do with the History of Actual Happenings in the Southwest. All of that came from James Beverly Ward, the Hutters and the Risqué Family along with the Oteys, Lucks, Innis' and Hart Families. There is no treasure and the actual story never happened.

 

[ECS]

... All of the History of Lynchburg and the History of the Family of Ward and Kin are the makes of the Book of the Beale Papers in the Job Print Pamphlet. It has nothing to do with the History of Actual Happenings in the Southwest. All of that came from James Beverly Ward, the Hutters and the Risqué Family along with the Oteys, Lucks, Innis' and Hart Families. There is no treasure and the actual story never happened.

...because the Beale tale is a "story that never happened" enables the creation of the "real" story behind the job pamphlet presented Beale story theories, which that has been demonstrated on this thread, present limitless possibilities that may provide an interesting read, but are highly not probable.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

The pivotal moment in my new course of research came when I really took the time to evaluate the contents of one communication, this being a letter that was sent to James Monroe in protest of the issue of pardons. Up to this point I had assumed that all of the pardon information in those general history resources was accurate since they all pretty much stated the same thing. Boy was I wrong!

What you will discover in the following communication is that the subject of pardons was on the table even before the battle and that for some, mainly the Laffite's, these pardons were discretionary and conditional, one of these conditions being that Laffite did participate in the defense of New Orleans. So if you believe that Monroe issued those pardons after the battle then you are way wrong, and in fact, he never issued them at all, this being left to the discretion of others, specifically Claiborne who was working closely with Jackson, one of the men referenced in the Beale narration. (Keep this in mind as it will come onto play again and again.)

In reality, the promise of pardon was the dangling of the carrot that will eventually lead to the tale in the 1885 narration. Here is that letter; (Read all of it very — very carefully, especially what I have underlined near the end.)

Poindexter, who served as a volunteer aide de camp with Major General Carroll at Chalmette, took time away from his role as a judge at Natchez, Miss., to assist Jackson in defending New Orleans from invading British forces. This is the text that he sent to Monroe in protest of the pardons that Jackson was requesting;

“Even a band of pirates was drawn into our ranks who were under prosecution of their crimes, and who had been invited to join the British while they occupied the Island near Lake Barataria. You will I hope sir, pardon me for stating to you, the manner, the circumstances of their transition from piracy to Patriotism, in the notorious Lafitte and his banditti. Edward Livingston, whose character is better known to you than myself, had contrived to attach himself and one or two of his adherents to the staff of Genl Jackson, as Volunteer Aids DeCamp (sic). The pirates had previously engaged him as their counsel to defend them in the District Court of the United States at New Orleans, and were by stipulation to give him the sum of twenty thousand dollars in case he succeeded in acquitting them. Knowing as he did that the evidence against them was conclusive, and that an impartial jury necessarily convict them, he advised the leaders of them "to make a tender of their services to Genl Jackson" in case he would come under a pledge to recommend them to the clemency of the Executive of the United States. Their services were accepted, and the condition acceeded to. How far the country is indebted to them for its safety it does not become me even to suggest an opinion. It is, however, a fact perfectly well known that their energy has been drawn by Mr. Livingston, their counsel; and there can be but little doubt that everything of an official stamp which is presented by the government respecting them, will emanate from the same source. If they are redeemed from Judicial investigation of their crimes with which they stand charged, his reward will be twenty thousand dollars of their piratical plunderings.

What the practice of Civilized Governments has been on similar occasions I am not fully prepared to say, nor do I remember an instance where pirates falling into the Country and under the power of one belligerent, have been offered protection and pardon of their offences, in case they would take up arms against the other belligerent. They are considered as enemies alike to both belligerents but I have thought it a duty incumbent on me as a good citizen to state the facts which came within my knowledge, as to the motives which led to the employment of these men, without intending them to have any other, than the weight which is your Judgment they merit.

It would seem to be an obvious inference from the past conduct of this band of robbers that if Louisiana should be again invaded, and they are enlarged, they would be restrained by no moral obligation from affording facilities to the Enemy.
I indulge the hope that you will pardon the freedom with which I address you on the present occasion, from a recollection, that when I last had the honor of an interview with you in Washington, you were so good as to allow me the liberty of writing to you confidentially. In that light, I wish you will view this communication, in so far as it may conflict with the wishes and opinions of General Jackson, relative to the grant of a pardon to the pirates, whom he has thought fit to employ in our service.”
Signed, George Poindexter

Now I can't tell you the many courses that this letter has sent me on over the years but I can tell you that there is more, so much more, the true nature of these relationships manifesting into something else in 1817 that would ultimately cause Monroe to request that Adams seek the opinion of Jackson in regards to public response to the newly proposed boundaries in “the west” that were to become law once/if the Adams Onis Treaty was signed. Jackson responded by saying that he thought the proposed boundaries would be generally accepted if they acquired the Floridas. Shortly afterwards the treaty was signed and then comes the first Beale deposit. Beale was in New Orleans with Jackson as well and he knew the Laffites and was even engaged in business affairs with them, had been in the same camp with Pierre Laffite the night before the famed New Orleans battle.

Yes, I have discovered “a lot” in recent years that I can now directly relate to the Beale narration. This including more details about something called the St. Louis Corporation that was also formed in 1817, the same year that the alleged Beale party was formed. This name, St. Louis, was recognizable to anyone who needed to recognize it for what it was, this name basically containing the true nature of its purpose. Obviously the company name is relative to St. Louis but in French it also means, “Island of the Serpent” in reference to Galveston Island, Laffite relocating there, again, in 1817, and still without restitution of his confiscated ships and goods that Patterson had seized despite protest from Claiborne, and also without restitution for the supplies that he provided during the famed battle that his lawyers were actively seeking. Do you see where all of this heading yet? Laffite still had substantial claims in the courts, the claims still being undecided. “Conditional pardons.”....hmmmmmm

And if you doubt the importance of Laffite's ships in securing the safety of this country you shouldn't, as when Patterson moved on Laffite's compounds Claiborne penned a very concerned letter that the confiscation of Laffite's vessels had left the entire Louisiana territory without defense. Now those are some pretty powerful and suggestive concerns, indeed. And there's more, a lot more, but we'll skip them for now.

When James Long set out on his expeditions into the Texas region he did so at Jackson's encouragement. And when debating the colonization of the French art Champ D'asile Monroe consulted none other then Jackson, whose only concern was that such a “colonization” could encourage negro and negro-Indian insurrections and colonization that could threaten the stability of the union, the issue of just how the Louisiana Territory was to be divided fairly between free slave territories and slave holding territories already threatening to rip the country apart. In any case Monroe and Jackson decided to risk it in order to obtain their objective in the west, this all having to do with the disputed boundaries and a passage to the Pacific, this all hinging on the current Adams Onis Treaty negotiations.

Now this is the short of it other then to say that there is a reason why Thomas Beale's presence in New Orleans disappears in 1817 and his name isn't mentioned again until those visits with Morriss. Now, perhaps, the following will be far more clear to you;

The two deposits are said to have been made in November 1819 and December 1821,

In The Beale Pamphlet Morriss claims that Beale’s two visits at his hotel took place on January 1820 and January
1822. Both of these dates fall “exactly” eleven months behind the dates of the signing and the ratification of the Adams Onis
Treaty.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Going a step further it’s interesting to note that both deposit dates fall closely in order between the dates in the above
table, nine and ten months respectively.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

very good job. i like laffitte.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

very good job. i like laffitte.

Then, YOU would like THE BEALE PAPERS: Lost Legacy by Robert N. Williams; ALL about LaFitte & "The Beale"... heh.

 

[ECS]

... There is no treasure and the actual story never happened.

That is why, young Jack, anyone , as many have, can present an alternative "this is what the Beale story is based" version by filling in the "holes" in the original story with forced fitted evidence.
...and that is why all the many "solved" ciphers presented are all different, the solver inserts into the solution what he believes to be there.
...and that causes a grand fret.
Remember the disclaimer in the Beale Papers-
"what may prove an illusion".