Bullied by Laws, any suggestions?

[michigan michael]

Hello all!

I am extremely new to this hobby. I purchased two MPx detectors, one for me and one for my wife and of course the kids wanted their own as well so, we picked them up a couple of Bounty Hunters. All four of us hit our own yard pretty hard finding coins from the 70's to current date. Pretty exciting finds for newbies! We wanted more. We practiced digging our plugs and covering our holes, disposing of all our trash and making sure we learned all the detecting ethics. We wanted to make sure we could cover our holes like we did not even dig them before we hit local parks.

As I plan a little family dig trip off our property this spring, I am floored with all of the laws that I am discovering online. It seems that you have more rights as a firearm holder than you do as a metal detector. Don't get me wrong I am an avid hunter and stand by my right to bare arms, I just don't understand all the restrictions the government places on public and state parks. If you do not cause property damage where is the crime?. I also do not understand that if you unearth a coin over 100 years old......That's against the law? What are you suppose to do? Throw it back in the hole and replace your plug and let the earth continue to destroy the historic coin? I understand the need for some laws but I wonder if I will feel like a criminal for enjoying a hobby that is not causing anyone or anything harm. I am sure this is a tired subject for a lot of you but, just getting introduced to this hobby I am a little confused as to where we can legally hunt in Public and State parks. A huge thanks for any suggestions or comments to keep me excited and not afraid to hunt.
Thanks,

Michigan Michael

 

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[Sandman]

Michael, I sent you a PM and also wish to welcome you to the forum.

Everyone of us need to contact our Representatives and Senators to educate them about what our hobby is all about. They learn about us from the archaeologists that wish to keep all the ground undisturbed for their own use, if not now, for the future archaeologists. We call them Archies for short.

Those of us that carry shovels and huge trowels into parks to mess up the grass by leaving holes do us more harm to ourselves than many of the archies that are out to stop us from even finding a lost coin cause there is a chance we might find Jesus' gobbet. We do not have the lobbyists the NRA has to protect our Second Amendment rights so we need to do it on our own.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Michigan Michael, I believe you are confusing state-level laws with city and county level laws. So for example, you may read one of the supposed laws for state parks in your area, that disallowed detecting. But that would only be for state-owned parks. It would not apply to county or city owned parks/schools. And rarely do the city and county level parks and school yards have any verbage addressing the issue. If they don't (if it is silent on the issue), then just go.

This is where it gets tricky though, because naturally, if you were to waltz into city or county hall park's dept. with a shovel in your hand and say "Can I metal detecting in YOUR park?" What do you think the answer would be? Odds are the thought or topic never even occured to some deskbound bureaucrat, so you risk conjuring images of geeks with shovels, and getting a "no", where.... in fact ..... no one would probably ever have cared or noticed.

Personally, I never ask for city or county parks anywhere. But if you are skittish, check yourself (usually available on-line). If it is silent on the issue, consider yourself no different than any other park user. Just use due discretion, don't leave marks, go at low traffic times so you don't upset busy-bodies, etc....

Back to the ominous sounding state-level rules: Some of them you also have to take with a grain-of-salt. Here in CA for example, if someone were to read the state-of-CA beaches rules, you may be led to think it's all but restricted. Yet state of CA beaches have been detected since the dawn of time, and it's never been a problem. But yeah, if you were snooping around historical monuments, then someone would take issue.

If you hook up with a local club, see who in your area is coming in with the good finds and old coins. See the types of sites they are hitting.

 

[mpostma]

I'm with Sandman on this too.

Yesterday I was with our state rep, and I invited him on a hunt in the spring. He is excited, and agreed to go.
A couple of months ago I found out he collected Boy Scout badges and memorabilia. I had found a perfect 40's BSA neckerchief clasp.
I presented it to him with a tag on it that said it was found metal detecting at an old jamboree site. He loved it, and ..........

Get to know your state reps! They can be great guys, and believe it or not most of them really are out there to help you.
I really suggest that you ask what you can do to help them in your local area. They are always looking for simple information too, and really appreciate a heads up when something happens that they would be interested in.
Keep in mind most love to be where they can get their picture taken, and meet more voters.

Invite them to club hunts, or just give them a chance to relax and learn about metal detecting. You may just be amazed at how effective that can be. Remember, everyone calls them to complain, or ask for money, or law changes. Call 'em and say you are inviting them out for some kind of enjoyable outing, and you may just get the man himself. Even a staffer gets you a contact in his office, and if they came out and had a good time they just may be hooked for life!

Good Luck,
Mark

 

[Red_desert]

Acouple years ago I moved several miles. I've never hunted any of the parks in the town I'm near, live on the edge of...but looking at the rules of a park near me, found some rule I've never seen before. A possible $250 fine for violating the rules.

1. Watch your dog at all times or keep on leash and if the pet injures the vegetation repair the damage.

2. Any person who plans to cause damage to any vegetation, must get permission first from the park, before causing any damage to vegetation.

No mention of metal detecting, but people metal detecting and dogs have something in common...they dig in the ground. Filling in holes seems to be the point the park is making.

 

[michigan michael]

Hey Tom,
I done exactly what you just said. I left the shovel in the car (lol) but, I received the same reaction. I went to a small town City Hall and asked permission to hunt local parks and they looked at me like I was crazy. I am sure this question has not ever came up before. At first the woman said yes, I don't see a problem with it but, quickly said she had better make a call first. I am not sure who she called but, She said they told her it was against the law in the county. I have read a lot of detecting laws and have not heard of an entire county off limits. I learned this one the hard way.

A big thanks to everyone for the information and suggestions.
Thanks,
Michigan Michael

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Michael, you have just learned the rule of: "Ask enough people if you can pick your own nose, and someone will tell you no". Your scenario is unfortunately what happens when someone reads of some legal incident, so they think they should ask permission for all public places, no matter how innocuous. I mean, afterall they reason: "better safe than sorry" right? And then it becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy: The mere fact that your standing in front of some clerk asking, merely implies that something is inherently wrong with, or your hobby, that you had to ask in the first place! Doh! And what do you think the easy answer is? You can get "no's" when there is really nothing in writing saying such a thing.

This happened in my city years ago: A new fellow attended our local club meeting. He sees a fellow hold up an old coin and say "found in Central Park". The newbie raises his hand and asks: "I thought detecting in the parks was illegal here?" Everyone turns around and asks: "Since when?" Turns out that upon moving to our city, he took it upon himself to go to city hall to ask! This was news to us! We'd detected the parks here since the dawn of detectors, and no one's ever cared or said anything. In fact, it never even occured to us that you needed to "ask" in the first place. Half the room, upon hearing this, got the shivers and thought "oh no, detecting is now illegal in the parks here!". The other half of us thought "nonsense, you probably got some desk clerk who thought you were going to dig up PG&E lines". BTW, that was 20 yrs. ago, and .... to this day .... you can still detect the parks in this city with no problem from anyone.

If someone is skittish, they should look it up for themselves (usually available on-line, or on a wooden sign as you enter the park). If it is silent on the issue, then go.

 

[Sandman]

This is information to those of us in Michigan but could pertain to any other state also.

http://www.protecthehobbynow.com/michigan_recently_revised_its_re.htm It is almost old news, but action can still be taken.

 

[ArcadianDelSol]

Seems to me that golf courses are far more concerned about their grasses than any state or county park - yet in every golf course in this country, it is considered sufficent to simply replace any divots of grass you rip out of the ground during the process of playing a round of golf.

Surely if this is good enough for the master groundskeeper at Augusta, it should be enough for the officials at your local preserve.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Arcadian, what you're saying makes perfect sense. But if you asked someone (where truth be told, they would probably have never noticed or cared) "can I make a divot as long as I replace it?" you might get a "no". (I mean, why should they be bothered?) And they would not accept your golf course analogy, no matter how logical it is.

 

[michigan michael]

Yes, I definitely learned a valuable lesson. I was so caught up with the many black and white rules that I have read. I did in fact overlook logic. I will just pick my nose. from now on unless I am on State or private property. With that in mind, Do most of the private property owners that you ask to hunt their property respond the same way? I am just curious of success and fail rates in this area. What is a good approach line? I am afraid if I come straight forward and ask that I would look the same and receive the same type of response I did at City Hall.
Thanks for all the info!
MM

 

[kool361]

Hey I live in Maryland and the laws are pretty strict here as well. Its crazy I don't really understand the difference between some archeologist digging up a sacred burial site who has the permission mind you from the gov't and me detecting a picnic area in a park. Its BS. I am sure that some archeologist will get on here and try to be all high and mighty and justify their actions and tell me mine are not justify.

 

[Massbaycolonist]

Mostly it is just common sense, Mike. Most parks are off limits, as is the White House lawn. Small, local parks are usually safe to detect in. Just keep it simple. If in doubt, ask the park ranger, life guard, police, or land owner. Your best bets for hassle free md'ing are beaches and remote mountain area's. If you find something good, keep it, and keep it under your hat. The more others know about your find, the more potential there is for them to lay claims to your find.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

massbaycolonist, you say: "If in doubt, ask the park ranger, life guard, police ........ " I would alter that and say: "If in doubt, look it up yourself." Usually available on-line at city websites, or on wooden-signs at the park entrance or brochures.

The trouble with "asking a park ranger, life guard, or police", is that even though you may THINK you're limiting your question to asking if there existing written laws saying anything about this, you might get these two outcomes: 1) twist your question as if you were asking permission, and say "no you can't, we would prefer you not do that", or 2) morph something they think applies, and tell you "no" (like "don't disturb the vegetation", or lost and found rules, etc...).

Mind you, in each of those two possible outcomes, they could be people who would never have even given the matter a second thought, or have ever paid you mind in the field. But when you ask, it puts them in the frame of mind that there must be something amiss about this, if someone is asking whether they can or can't do it.

 

[Red_desert]

I usually ask the question in a different way...like this. Do other people ever M'detect here? The lifeguard then says, "Oh yes, there are people who come out here M'detecting". And then I say, "it must be ok to detect here". And they say, "Oh yes, and we have another park in town also where people go to M'detect".

If you keep the question limited to whether other people do or don't M'detect in a place, you'll be able to know whether it's open to detecting.

 

[michigan michael]

I usually ask the question in a different way...like this. Do other people ever M'detect here? The lifeguard then says, "Oh yes, there are people who come out here M'detecting". And then I say, "it must be ok to detect here". And they say, "Oh yes, and we have another park in town also where people go to M'detect".

If you keep the question limited to whether other people do or don't M'detect in a place, you'll be able to know whether it's open to detecting.

Good idea! I like that one. I will definitely us it.
Thanks,
mm

 

[Massbaycolonist]

Your strategy sounds good for parks and beaches, Red Desert. But in more remote areas, just because there have not been anyone seen metal detecting does not nessesarilly mean that metal detecting is disallowed or that permission can not be obtained.

Case in point: There is a gold mine area where there are more 'Private-No tresspassing' signs everywhere than you can shake a stick at. But I made friends with one of the residents on the hill. Now I am allowed to roam the hill, and even park my car in their driveway! I can guarentee you that if you ask anyone there if they have seen anyone metal detecting around there, the answer would be no. No way.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

massbaycolonist, I was thinking the same thing.

I know of parks and schools that have been pounded to heck over the years. But if you were to ask the average cop, or even the average resident right across the street, they'd say they've "never seen anyone detecting there"

One time, for example, at a school in my town that's been detected since the 1960s, I was getting ready to detect late one afternoon. A school employee walked up and told me that I couldn't do that right then, because a little-league games was going to start within the next 1/2 hr. I told the lady "ok, I'll come back another time". As she turned to leave, she says "you should do good here, no one's ever detected at this school yard before " I had to chuckle because I knew the school had been hunted to death over the years.

It's just that non-md'rs, just don't notice it. It's just something that they don't give a second thought to, since it's not a hobby their into, when casually passing by. So I would hardly let that be a factor in letting some yahoo assume whether or not you can detect a place or not. If it's not specifically disallowed on a sign, or in an on-line city website, then I would think of myself as no different than any other park user (drinking from the fountain, skipping stones on the pond, etc...)

 

[Red_desert]

Your strategy sounds good for parks and beaches, Red Desert. But in more remote areas, just because there have not been anyone seen metal detecting does not nessesarilly mean that metal detecting is disallowed or that permission can not be obtained.

Case in point: There is a gold mine area where there are more 'Private-No tresspassing' signs everywhere than you can shake a stick at. But I made friends with one of the residents on the hill. Now I am allowed to roam the hill, and even park my car in their driveway! I can guarentee you that if you ask anyone there if they have seen anyone metal detecting around there, the answer would be no. No way.

It takes a lot of imagination to find out about places sometimes. I've gone on trips out West and everywhere was claim markers, even NO Metal Detecting signs. Takes a little time to discover what is open for treasure hunting.

Remote areas, like out Southwest, I usually avoid National Forest lands and look for BLM instead. If the place isn't under claim, M'detecting and gold prospecting kind of go together...the way I see it. At least it seems to work out West. Each state has it's own rules though...I think it is Wyoming (), the Archies got things messed up to the point that they would have a hard time getting a permit to excavate on an old foundation. Rules can keep changing, hard to keep up with everything.

I think most local parks are open to M'detecting. I saw a post recently about rest areas in my state being open to treasure hunting. Never thought of that...wonder about out West, states in the desert like New Mexico and Arizona. Some of those would be easy M'detecting if it was allowed. Now I'll have to find out.

 

[relichunters]

Hi there and welcome to our world.

The city and country parks here in Virginia allow metal detectors to dig around. This hobby doesn't do "property damage" so they can't do anything. I wouldn't let these so called laws bother you. I've never been kicked out of a place yet. As long as you are nice to them, they are nice to you. Also since you have kids doing it with you, they look at it as a family thing and won't care as much.

As for the 100 year old thing, unless it has a date on it, nobody can determine a date on the spot. If its an old coin, just put it a pocket and move on, if asked if you found anything, just say a penny and some trash. Have a newer penny on you. They won't search you.

So the chances are slim, and many people don't know anything about the hobby. I've been asked if what I was doing is legal, and I of course say yes it is legal, and they walk away. So keep detecting and getting those treasures. Join some group hunts also, people get 6 - 12 people together and detect a spot. It's fun!