Can BLM do this

[Bodfish Mike]

This pertains to Mining in Keyesville CA
Keyesville: Recreational Mining
Here's what BLM is proposing to do.
here is the Quote from them.

"Permits will be required for recreational prospecting taking place outside mining claims in order to make sure prospectors understand the laws and only work in specified recreational mining areas. Those owning mining claims will need to provide fifteen day notice to the BLM prior to mining on private claims in Keyesville."

Well I'm ok with the permit on the recreational mining areas and think they can do that but the fifteen day notice to the BLM prior to mining on private claims I have a problem with. Note there is a GPAA Claim Involved here and other private claims plus some un-claimed areas.
So do you think BLM can inpose this on us casual use Miners.

 

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[Goldwasher]

truthfully for me this is the poorest argument one could bring to the table....

New 49rs AMRA GPAA and pretty much every other prospecting club are RECREATIONAL!

They advertise themselves as such and they use the land as such!!( Recreational Prospectors!!) Now a Days you can buy/stake gold claims for recreational purposes.. Or you can just join one of many clubs for Recreational prospecting. And the many many others... All recreational..

Also for once instead of the endless complaints and insults levied against occasional prospectors..weekend warriors...retiree's or whoever it is you are judging...what is your actual argument or solution Victor?

 

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[Bodfish Mike]

Here is more and current info on what's going. (it's alot of reading I was trying to keep it short.)
Keyesville Planning
I went to some of the workshops and commented The 15 day wait was a bad idea.
My info comes from the October 2014 workshop.
PDF File http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ca/pdf/bakersfield/keyesville_pdf.Par.73239.File.dat/KeysvilleGoldFeverRMZnotes.pdf

My comment.
The RMP’s requirement for a 15 day wait before mining is extremely constraining for out of town users who want to just pull up and do some casual use prospecting. Does the BLM really expect these miners to complete a notification process or programmatic plan before every single hole? Is there really a need for a 15 day wait for casual use
prospecting? Note: My comment was meant for out of town GPAA members


BLM response.
It’s important to note that the 15 day notice requirement applies only to people mining on claims rather than in the recreational mining area. The requirement is directed at claim owners for the overall operations on the claim rather than
individual miners and their individual actions.


So back to my original question.
Do you think BLM can impose this on us casual use Miners.

I THINK NOT AND I'M GOING TO TEST IT.

 

[Goldwasher]

Like I said no law to back it....they will as seen before try to get many people to line up and sign themselves into an unlawful situation to set presidency and status quo.....don't fall for it

 

[Bodfish Mike]

Good point...I got so drawn into the other bs, that I didn't see what Mike wrote. Where did that quote come from?

http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ca/pdf/bakersfield/keyesville_pdf.Par.73239.File.dat/KeysvilleGoldFeverRMZnotes.pdf

 

[MadMarshall]

Doesn't matter what they call themselves in the laws eyes there is no such thing. Most knowledgeable prospectors know why to avoid the title. No one stakes claims for the purpose of recreation. People stake claims to develop mineral resource's.( or if they're shady to sell to naive buyers) If someone feels like they are prospecting as a recreation so be it. Doesn't define it as a recreation however.

So your telling me that AMRA claims and GPAA claims and the many other gold clubs that stake Recreational claims are trying to develop mineral resources? Honestly I question the actual Validity of every Claim that is associated with a Gold club or advocacy group.. Its as plain as the nose on my face that GPAA claims are recreational AMRA claims are Recreational so on and so on...

 

[Goldwasher]

No law says any thing about how you must feel while your digging...location CHECK....people to dig CHECK......gold coming out of the ground CHECK.......the only people who dont like the arrangement are you and people who don't like mining ! So again I ask you since you have the biggest gripe here. HOW do you want it to be so you will actually stop feeling injured by the current situation Victor. Please articulate the solution to the problem as you see it maybe you will enlighten some people.....or should we all go start tipping over Porta Potties

 

[MadMarshall]

I am just pointing out the facts.. Mining law doesn't apply to that kind of use (Recreational Use).. Pretty simple actually.. That's all I am saying.. A common thing in todays world for law to be twisted.. Legal funds and attorneys and lots and lots of BS.. but that's another topic altogether..

 

[Asmbandits]

I am just pointing out the facts.. Mining law doesn't apply to that kind of use (Recreational Use).. Pretty simple actually.. That's all I am saying.. A common thing in todays world for law to be twisted.. Legal funds and attorneys and lots and lots of BS.. but that's another topic altogether..

From what I gathered from past posts, would it be a safe assumption that you feel unless someone is living full time on a claim, blm or usfs land and has a lack of other income willfully or otherwise, this makes you a real miner and not recreational?

I would think owning and maintaining a valid claim would constitute legitimacy. The other things you point out I would consider preference and personal opinion. I think some would argue that anyone that works by hand and in such a small scale, and without a valid claim would be considered "recreational". Might want to consider this as it may group yourself into the same as thoughs you speak of yourself.

 

[Hefty1]

"Mining law doesn't apply to that kind of use (Recreational Use)"..
That is exactly how our gov, got this so f**ked up....that one word!

 

[Hefty1]

Some of you still don't understand this. And I don't care if its weekend warriors, retires, going once a month, year, or you do it for a living, all the time.

Recreational is not in the mining laws, Period. Because a lot of people use this word for when they do go out for gold and others . Our gov, found a way to use that against us. Now is that so hard to understand why some of us get so upset about the word "Recreational"

 

[Hefty1]

" I think some would argue that anyone that works by hand and in such a small scale, and without a valid claim would be considered "recreational"."


ITS CALLED PROSPECTING!!! Sorry...Its called Prospecting!

 

[Goldwasher]

I am just pointing out the facts.. Mining law doesn't apply to that kind of use (Recreational Use).. Pretty simple actually.. That's all I am saying.. A common thing in todays world for law to be twisted.. Legal funds and attorneys and lots and lots of BS.. but that's another topic altogether..

there is no legal definition of " recreational prospecting" that has any bearing on how the mining law applies to people lawfully digging on a mining claim. No law or court case that has ever invalidated a claim based on the type of equipment used to recover valuable minerals, or based on the age,demographic or affiliation with any sort of group. As long as someone has permission to work someone elses claim there is nothing to prevent them from doing so in the mining law...regardless of their reason for doing so or the equipment they choose to use. Or the frequency that they happen to atempt to do so. It is not unlawful in any way to advertise a lease (membership included) as the citizen may decline at any time. No club out there promises or gaurantee's any certain amount of mineral recovered. And none that I know of ask for a royalty or split. You can join or not. There are numerous pay to play mom and pop claims for gem's ,semi precious stone's....opal digs...sunstone...geodes..all across the west. They don't have tractor beams out by the highway.. People search them out on purpose because they are typically pretty consistant for material. Some are on private land some are long held mineral leases. They all operate legally under the law. Some of the best opal sourced in Nevada is on pay to play ground that is stripped by the owners and several people I know pay to play and turn around and profit. Many consider rockhounding a hobby. Should Pay to play gemstone digs be shut down based on the fact that some people call what thay do a hobby? Or does that not bother you because you don't dig for opal?
You've also lamented against people going to big. So, should the guys down in Wickenberg running excavators and trommels be shut down because they work only when there is water so seasonally. Is there threshold for what size trommel is recreational or is it based on run time. I can't seem to find that in the mining law either.
Your not pointing out facts Victor your expressing your opinion.

 

[Goldwasher]

" I think some would argue that anyone that works by hand and in such a small scale, and without a valid claim would be considered "recreational"."


ITS CALLED PROSPECTING!!! Sorry...Its called Prospecting!

not his point Hefty

 

[Rawhide]

BLM is doing anything it wants. So far the courts and folks pulling guns havent worked. I do not understand why we must look at pictures in books if we want to enjoy blm lands anymore. I would suggest pictures of how the BLM is being bad stewards of the lands. What is the BLM hiding.

 

[Hefty1]

not his point Hefty

Why would it or why does it have to be called "Recreational" Why not use the words "Part Time" "Sometimes""On my days off"

 

[Hefty1]

And you don't have to have a claim.....any land open to mineral exporation.

 

[Hefty1]

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO JUST DON"T "GET IT"

This is for all those people who don't think this is important, so maybe this will help you understand.......

MINING UNDER THE 1872 MINING LAW
AND
RECREATIONAL MINING
IN OREGON​

Prepared by Tom Kitchar, April. 8, 2014​

A growing problem for individual prospectors and miners in Oregon today is the seemingly total misunderstanding by regulatory agencies, the general public, and even many within the mining community of the differences between mining pursuant to the U.S. Mining Law and so-called “recreational mining”. This misunderstanding has led to more and more regulation and restrictions on mining and in some cases to actual prohibitions.For the purposes of this report:“Mining” means: prospecting, exploration, and actual mining along with all uses reasonably incident to mining on lands owned by the United States that are open to Location & Entry under the U.S. General Mining Act(s) of 1866, 1870, and 1872,[1] on mining claims, and private property. “Recreational mining” means: prospecting, exploration and mining on lands closed to Location and Entry under the U.S. Mining Law on federal lands withdrawn from mineral entry, or on state and county owned lands – with the permission of the owner.Note that all mining (including prospecting) on lands of the United States open to mining under the Mining Law is performed as a Congressionally granted statutory right to all citizens (and others) which cannot be taken or prohibited; whereas any mining or prospecting on state or county owned lands is performed with the express permission of the land owner as an allowed activity or privilege which can be regulated to the point of a prohibition similar to other recreational activities such as hunting or fishing.Under the U.S. Mining Law, there is no such thing as “recreational mining”. On lands open to Location & Entry under the Mining Law, any and all locatable mineral extraction activities are “mining”. As far as the rights of miners are concerned, it makes no difference what-so-ever if the miner is having fun or working under miserable conditions 18 hrs./day, getting rich or starving, or operating large excavators and bulldozers or just simply panning for gold.[2] On these lands, mining is mining.It is only under Oregon statutes that “recreational mining” exists. Under ORS 517.120(4):"Recreational mining" means mining in a manner that is consistent with a hobby or casual use, including use on public lands set aside or withdrawn from mineral entry for the purpose of recreational mining, or using pans, sluices, rocker boxes, other nonmotorized equipment and dredges with motors of 16 horsepower or less and a suction nozzle of four inches or less in diameter. (emphasis added)By definition, “recreational mining” cannot occur on lands of the United States open to mining under the Mining Law - as any such activities are neither a hobby nor casual use – they are “mining” (and as such are performed and protected by authorization granted by Congress).BACKGROUND NOTES: Presented here to help understand the difference between “mining” and “recreational mining”; as considering them as the same is akin to mixing apples and oranges: Yes, both are mining (as apples & oranges are both fruit), but one form is a Congressionally granted statutory right while the other has no rights attached and is performed at the whim of the land owner.A. The Congress of the United States, as authorized by the Constitution, has the “exclusive” [SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][/SUP] power “…to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States;” (Article IV).
B. According to the U.S. Mining Law:

“… the mineral lands of the public domain, both surveyed and unsurveyed, are hereby declared to be free and open to exploration and occupation by all citizens of the United States, and those who have declared their intention to become citizens, subject to such regulations as may be prescribed by law, and subject also to the local custom or rules of miners in the several mining districts, so far as the same may not be in conflict with the laws of the United States.” (H.B. 365, 39TH CONGRESS, IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES, JULY 19, 1866, Sec. 1). (emphasis added)
C. “Locators' rights of possession and enjoyment”: According to 30 USC, Chpt. 2, Sec. 26:
“… so long as they comply with the laws of the United States, and with State, territorial, and local regulations not in conflict with the laws of the United States governing their possessory title… …shall have the exclusive right [SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][/SUP] of possession and enjoyment of all the surface included within the lines of their locations…” (emphasis and footnote added)
Note that on mining claims located after the effective date of the 1955 Multiple Use Act are subject, when a patent has not yet issued, to a right in the United States to manage surface resources and allow others to use surface resources, though these uses:“…shall be such as not to endanger or materially interfere with prospecting, mining or processing operations or uses reasonably incident thereto. (30 U.S.C. 612(b)).(emphasis added)

D. Property rights:Under both federal and state laws, unpatented mining claims are considered real property in the highest sense:30 USC 26.94 - Unpatented mining claims are "property" in the highest sense of such term, which may be bought, sold and conveyed and will pass by decent. ORS 517.080 Mining claims as realty. All mining claims, whether quartz or placer, are real estate. The owner of the possessory right thereto has a legal estate therein within the meaning of ORS 105.005. [SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][/SUP]
E. Congressional Intent:

The Congress declares that it is the continuing policy of the Federal Government in the national interest to foster and encourage private enterprise in (1) the development of economically sound and stable domestic mining, minerals, metal and mineral reclamation industries, (2) the orderly and economic development of domestic mineral resources, reserves, and reclamation of metals and minerals to help assure satisfaction of industrial, security and environmental needs... (Mining and Minerals Policy Act of 1970) (emphasis added)
F. Summary: As can be seen in the above:1. Those mining under the U.S. Mining Law enjoy very real specific rights, to property and the right to mine that property. Even the federal government land management agencies are barred from endangering or materially interfering with such mining. Any and all regulation must be reasonable and necessary to protect specific concerns; and cannot be prohibitive in nature; whereas2. Those “recreating” on lands closed to the mining law do not enjoy these rights but instead are a mere social guest of the landowner who is free to allow, restrict or even prohibit the activities.

Prepared by

Tom Kitchar
President, Waldo Mining District
P.O. Box 1574
Cave Junction, OR 97523

---

[1]The true nature of ‘‘public lands.’’ ‘‘Public Lands’’ are ‘‘lands open to sale or other dispositions under general laws, lands to which no claim or rights of others have attached.’’ The United States Supreme Court has stated: ‘‘It is well settled that all land to which any claim or rights of others has attached does not fall within the designation of public lands.’’ FLPMA defines ‘‘public lands’’ to mean ‘‘any land and interest in land owned by the United States within the several states and administered by the Secretary of the Interior through the Bureau of Land Management.’’ (From the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD—Extensions of Remarks, October 23, 2000, Determination of Land Ownership within Federal Forest ReservesCHAIRMAN’S FINAL REPORT CONCERNING THE NOVEMBER 13 SUBCOMMITTEE ON FORESTS AND FOREST HEALTH HEARING IN ELKO, NEVADA


[2] “…panning for gold is quintessentially a mining operation.” (UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MONTANA, MISSOULA DIVISION, UNITED STATES OF AMERICAvs.STEVE A. HICKS,JAN 0 9 2009)

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[3] Exclusive. Appertaining to the subject alone, not including, admitting, or pertaining to any others. Sole. Shutting out; debarring from interference or participation; vested in one person alone. (Black’s Law Dictionary, 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Edition, 1979) (emphasis added)
[4] Exclusive right. An exclusive right is one which only the grantee thereof can exercise, and from which
all others are prohibited or shut out. (Black’s Law Dictionary, 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Edition, 1979) (emphasis added)

2 of 3​

[5]ORS 105.005 Right of action; recovery; damages. (1) Any person who has a legal estate in real property and a present right to the possession of the property, may recover possession of the property, with damages for withholding possession, by an action at law. The action shall be commenced against the person in the actual possession of the property at the time, or if the property is not in the actual possession of anyone, then against the person acting as the owner of the property…

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Last edited by jog; Apr 18, 2014 at 04:25 AM.​

 

[Goldwasher]

Why would it or why does it have to be called "Recreational" Why not use the words "Part Time" "Sometimes""On my days off"

I mean he was pointing out the double standard in Victors argument. Basically using his own words against his point

 

[MadMarshall]

tit for twatzzz.. seriously we can go back and forth all day...
Lets not.. I suppose the future will be the decider..

Let me end with this... No matter what your intent I wish everyone luck and success in their pursuits....

 

[Goldwasher]

Why would it or why does it have to be called "Recreational" Why not use the words "Part Time" "Sometimes""On my days off"

And I hope your not misunderstanding me...I agree there is no such thing as recreational mining on public lands.. it's just mining or prospecting there is no law creating a "recreational" threshold on public lands. And as hefty has correctly stated the word has been used against us. And there are people trying to get it included in unlawful regulation....and just because someone only digs on weekends or in club claims it doesn't invalidate the claim or turn that person into a recreational prospector