Cave of gold bars

[deducer]

>>>>No need to jump on posters who have heard otherwise; just shooting the messenger here. Somehiker isn't the first poster to hint that the USS TELLALL has gone off course.<<<<

Ya see what I mean <g>. I jumped on no one. Geez.......

First post was what I knew, as of when I knew it.....So far as I knew things were on course and full speed. Fully allowing that things could have changed since last I knew. Its possible.

Wayne also allowed how he hoped (what I assumed was the effort) wasn't a write off. My post was a furtherance of that......that no, I didn't think it was wasted time. It would all work out in the wash regardless. This time, a later time, whatever, the effort would come to fruition, someway, somehow even if this avenue closed. Still no jumping........ Simple dialog and nothing more.

Last post was just funny banter... I would have thought that obvious. Perhaps not. Can't we laugh at ourselves? Two friends ( I hope friends) having a discussion where only the tip of the iceberg is actually stated in EITHER conversation. Both are understandably limited in what they can say. One says the other one is obfuscating. As Larry the Cable guy says......I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. But; that's just me. Life's too short not to have some humor along the way.

I didn't mean to jump anyone about anything. Still don't understand how that conversation that can be misconstrued as jumping. If I jump someone there's usually blood letting involved. Mine or otherwise. Sometimes both.

My misunderstanding then, sorry.

So the production is still on track? I don't see anything on IMDB or on the other site which has been very quiet.

 

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[azdave35]

My misunderstanding then, sorry.

So the production is still on track? I don't see anything on IMDB or on the other site which has been very quiet.

imdb?

 

[i am the horse]

You're not alone in that thought, and we who see otherwise are in the minority.
Even fewer are those of us who have actually been able to examine the physical evidence and ponder it's significance.
There remains no question for myself that what is on the stone represents the historical, far too old and intricate for a hoax IMHO, and perhaps even a "pandora's box" in some respects.

I choose to think its the opposite of the pandora box.

 

[Old]

As to what ever IMDB is I don't have a clue.

 

[393stroker]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMDb

 

[somehiker]

I choose to think its the opposite of the pandora box.

How so ?

 

[i am the horse]

How so ?

Well the last thing i pm'd you about i saw the complete opposite. Just as i see the opposite of the evil you speak about with the pandora box. I dont walk around aimlessly in the supes for my health. I dont consider myself lost either. I like many on here have put in the work. I seek answers over monetary gain. Money IS the root of all evil. Treasure hunters seek what countless lives were lost over. And thats all i have to say about that. Quote taken from forrest gump. Be good. Maybe i will see you out there this winter.

 

[somehiker]

I've never named any of the different "heads" and/or "faces" I've "seen" (pareidolia'd ) out there, although I have posted many in contribution to various topics.
For this shot though, I have made an exception .... perhaps I'm not the first




Her Nahua name translates to "Obsidian Butterfly"...perhaps due to the dark shape visible on her lower face in the photo ?

As the leader of the mercenary Chichimec who first traveled to Cuauhtinchan, this female warrior is front and center as one of the cast of characters featured in the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan no.2.




and the Codice Duran



She was later to become one of the goddesses of Aztec mythology.

 

[somehiker]

Another image I most recently visited last April

 

[deducer]

imdb?

The Internet Movie DataBase:

IMDb - Movies, TV and Celebrities - IMDb

It's a resource heavily used by the public for finding out more information about a production, an actor, or whatever. It's a great resource and a publicity tool.

Let's say you mention, in conversation, to someone who's internet-savvy, that there's going to be a documentary made about the Tumlinsons, but you don't know much else. That person can simply turn to IMDB, look up the production and find out the release date, where it'll be released, and more importantly how to view it. It also attracts producer reps, distributors, etc.

 

[sdcfia]

Another image I most recently visited last April

View attachment 1478042

Your photos seem to always be not quite detailed enough to see enough. That looks like typical mineral stain - are you suggesting that it is manmade?

The Aztec codices are quite intriguing. However, most of what survived the ages were created post-Conquest with the "help" of the Spanish clergy. Why is this? Because the Spanish clergy destroyed the large collection of authentic pre-Conquest codices as, when you get right down to it, works of the devil. For that reason, it's reasonable to assume that most of what we see was edited for content - Duran is a good example - and, well, edited content is what it is. Source material is what we want. Unfortunately, as with Aztec codices, there is very little source material available from most ancient world cultures (save carved rock). Bottom line: much of accepted world history has been edited. Anatoly Fomenko notwithstanding, it leaves us with a bushel of potential half-truths. The problems come if we happen to get our hands on the wrong half.

 

[gollum]

HeySteve,

In going through some previous posts, I saw something you posted that I should respond to. You said that you don't think my theory about the maps/instructions to Jesuit Wealth were lost during the suppressions was possible (paraphrasing).

Such a a statement shows a lack of understanding of what actually happened during the night of 25-26 June 1767, and the months of forced marches and slave ship-like travel across the Atlantic. After the Spanish arrested several Jesuits during the Esquillace Riots of 1766, King Charles III sent emissaries to closely watch the Jesuits in the New World. One even set up in an apartment across from the front gate of the Jesuit College in Mexico City for a year, so he could watch all the comings and goings.

At about 1am during the night of 25-26 June 1767, Spanish Authorities swept in and arrested every Jesuit in all Spansih Lands in the New World (the only exceptions were the Missions in Baja and a very ill Father Joseph Och SJ). The only things they were allowed to take with them on their "Bataan-like" death march across Mexico, were the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Thomas a Kempis' Book "An Imitation of Christ".

So to sum up, all their correspondences for about a year prior to their arrests had been closely monitored, if anything other than what was allowed had been taken (i.e. maps or written instructions), it would have been found and the Jesuits wealth exposed to the world. They could not even chance something like that happening, so they were left with very few choices:

1. Give that knowledge to trusted people to hold. They would NEVER have trusted anyone that hadn't taken all their vows with that kind of knowledge that could expose the Order.

2. Place that knowledge on maps/instructions that would stay hidden in the New World, but would not be subject to weather, fire, etc (i.e. Stone Maps). Could also have been secreted in Jesuit Missions (which was where the ground map was supposed to have been originally found).

3. Keep that knowledge in the heads of the individuals assigned to hide the wealth from each Rectorate. Most likely, because either of the previous two stood the real risk of being found by the people they were hiding it from, which would have exposed the truth of Jesuit Wealth to the world. Since they had about a 30% death rate among the arrested Padres, it would have been very easy for that knowledge to have died with them.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

HeySteve,

In going through some previous posts, I saw something you posted that I should respond to. You said that you don't think my theory about the maps/instructions to Jesuit Wealth were lost during the suppressions was possible (paraphrasing).

Such a a statement shows a lack of understanding of what actually happened during the night of 25-26 June 1767, and the months of forced marches and slave ship-like travel across the Atlantic. After the Spanish arrested several Jesuits during the Esquillace Riots of 1766, King Charles III sent emissaries to closely watch the Jesuits in the New World. One even set up in an apartment across from the front gate of the Jesuit College in Mexico City for a year, so he could watch all the comings and goings.

At about 1am during the night of 25-26 June 1767, Spanish Authorities swept in and arrested every Jesuit in all Spansih Lands in the New World (the only exceptions were the Missions in Baja and a very ill Father Joseph Och SJ). The only things they were allowed to take with them on their "Bataan-like" death march across Mexico, were the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Thomas a Kempis' Book "An Imitation of Christ".

So to sum up, all their correspondences for about a year prior to their arrests had been closely monitored, if anything other than what was allowed had been taken (i.e. maps or written instructions), it would have been found and the Jesuits wealth exposed to the world. They could not even chance something like that happening, so they were left with very few choices:

1. Give that knowledge to trusted people to hold. They would NEVER have trusted anyone that hadn't taken all their vows with that kind of knowledge that could expose the Order.

2. Place that knowledge on maps/instructions that would stay hidden in the New World, but would not be subject to weather, fire, etc (i.e. Stone Maps). Could also have been secreted in Jesuit Missions (which was where the ground map was supposed to have been originally found).

3. Keep that knowledge in the heads of the individuals assigned to hide the wealth from each Rectorate. Most likely, because either of the previous two stood the real risk of being found by the people they were hiding it from, which would have exposed the truth of Jesuit Wealth to the world. Since they had about a 30% death rate among the arrested Padres, it would have been very easy for that knowledge to have died with them.

Mike

I'm aware of the Jesuits' fall and the circumstances of their expulsion.

I tend look at things a little differently than what may be available in the record. A lot of stuff happens that doesn't make it into the record. I try to understand who these people were and place myself in their shoes. By all accounts, the Jesuits were the elites of their time - everything well-planned, all contingencies considered, protect the Order at all costs, the smartest people in the room. If I was running a clandestine and illegal mining operation - one that produced the amount of precious metals that we're led to believe, then I would obviously want to conceal the fruits of my labors from the possibility of detection. A secure storage location would be chosen and become a depository as time passed. Knowing the tenuous nature of frontier life beyond the Mexican Northern Frontier - where all could be lost - I would assure that the Order's wealth would be secured in case the worst happened. The location of my depository would be communicated to superiors back in Europe beginning very early in the game. Why wouldn't it? If their mail was being read, the Jesuits would have had very little trouble coding the cache location, even in routine correspondences. If it were you, wouldn't you be clever enough to secure your stash - hope for the best, plan for the worst?

Bottom line for me is that the Jesuits aren't the sort of folks who would not have made contingency plans from the beginning. That said, I can only surmise that they either retrieved the caches later (if the caches existed at all), or the caches were of such modest value that they didn't bother with them later.

 

[somehiker]

Your photos seem to always be not quite detailed enough to see enough. That looks like typical mineral stain - are you suggesting that it is manmade?

The Aztec codices are quite intriguing. However, most of what survived the ages were created post-Conquest with the "help" of the Spanish clergy. Why is this? Because the Spanish clergy destroyed the large collection of authentic pre-Conquest codices as, when you get right down to it, works of the devil. For that reason, it's reasonable to assume that most of what we see was edited for content - Duran is a good example - and, well, edited content is what it is. Source material is what we want. Unfortunately, as with Aztec codices, there is very little source material available from most ancient world cultures (save carved rock). Bottom line: much of accepted world history has been edited. Anatoly Fomenko notwithstanding, it leaves us with a bushel of potential half-truths. The problems come if we happen to get our hands on the wrong half.

Can mineral stain be man made ? From a iron rich deposit located nearby but well below the image itself, and combined with other ingredients also sourced nearby, could it be used to create a viscous "paint" suitable for a surface composed of volcanic tuff ?
Then again.....maybe you're right.

 

[sdcfia]

Can mineral stain be man made ? From a iron rich deposit located nearby but well below the image itself, and combined with other ingredients also sourced nearby, could it be used to create a viscous "paint" suitable for a surface composed of volcanic tuff ?
Then again.....maybe you're right.

I dunno. I've seen plenty of Apache pictographs in protected locations that have weathered maybe 150 years of weather and are still viable.

 

[gollum]

I'm aware of the Jesuits' fall and the circumstances of their expulsion.

I tend look at things a little differently than what may be available in the record. A lot of stuff happens that doesn't make it into the record. I try to understand who these people were and place myself in their shoes. By all accounts, the Jesuits were the elites of their time - everything well-planned, all contingencies considered, protect the Order at all costs, the smartest people in the room. If I was running a clandestine and illegal mining operation - one that produced the amount of precious metals that we're led to believe, then I would obviously want to conceal the fruits of my labors from the possibility of detection. A secure storage location would be chosen and become a depository as time passed. Knowing the tenuous nature of frontier life beyond the Mexican Northern Frontier - where all could be lost - I would assure that the Order's wealth would be secured in case the worst happened. The location of my depository would be communicated to superiors back in Europe beginning very early in the game. Why wouldn't it? If their mail was being read, the Jesuits would have had very little trouble coding the cache location, even in routine correspondences. If it were you, wouldn't you be clever enough to secure your stash - hope for the best, plan for the worst?

Bottom line for me is that the Jesuits aren't the sort of folks who would not have made contingency plans from the beginning. That said, I can only surmise that they either retrieved the caches later (if the caches existed at all), or the caches were of such modest value that they didn't bother with them later.

That at would appear to be the best move on paper, but there are things that have happened that throw your theory off:

1. The find in the cellars of the old Jesuit College at Rio de Janeiro. The Jesuit Order was restored in 1814. It sat untouched in those cellars for 77 years, until a construction company found it while destroying the building. Why would the Jesuits sit on their thumbs for 77 years if they knew where it was, and then just let it go to a construction company?

2. I have posted old newspaper clippings regarding sightings of Jesuits in mountainous regions who appeared to be searching for something. Don Jose has related his having the same experiences with Jesuits in the mountains of Mexico.

3. In the 1980s, when Tayopa was supposedly found once, Father Charles Polzer SJ flew down and attempted to claim it for the Jesuit Order. He was supposedly so obnoxious about it, his baggage was "lost" while there.

Why would all of that have happened if the Order knew the location of all their hidden wealth? The simple answer is that they would not have! The Jesuits would have recovered their hidden wealth not long after 1814 if they knew where it all was IMHO.

Mike

 

[somehiker]

I dunno. I've seen plenty of Apache pictographs in protected locations that have weathered maybe 150 years of weather and are still viable.

There are other, much smaller blackened pictographs within the range, associated with small Salado ruins. Some, like this one and what once may have been other images surrounding it, are barely recognizable as to which animal or other form they once were. Others within the caves, are in better shape. I guess the long term durability depends on the mix of materials used, how it was applied and how thick, as well as the rock it was applied to being factors equally as important as weathering. The multi colored paint and paintings on Mayan ruins have lasted a long time within wetter jungle conditions.

 

[sdcfia]

That at would appear to be the best move on paper, but there are things that have happened that throw your theory off:

1. The find in the cellars of the old Jesuit College at Rio de Janeiro. The Jesuit Order was restored in 1814. It sat untouched in those cellars for 77 years, until a construction company found it while destroying the building. Why would the Jesuits sit on their thumbs for 77 years if they knew where it was, and then just let it go to a construction company?

2. I have posted old newspaper clippings regarding sightings of Jesuits in mountainous regions who appeared to be searching for something. Don Jose has related his having the same experiences with Jesuits in the mountains of Mexico.

3. In the 1980s, when Tayopa was supposedly found once, Father Charles Polzer SJ flew down and attempted to claim it for the Jesuit Order. He was supposedly so obnoxious about it, his baggage was "lost" while there.

Why would all of that have happened if the Order knew the location of all their hidden wealth? The simple answer is that they would not have! The Jesuits would have recovered their hidden wealth not long after 1814 if they knew where it all was IMHO.

Mike

1. As I recall the most detailed report that deducer posted re the Rio castle vault recovery, it didn't seem to be much of a secret where the vault was (beneath the castle), why it was built (keep it out of French hands in the 18th century) or what was in it (inventory detailed in document filed in Lisbon). Wasn't the recovery a negotiated recovery? The problem wasn't trying to figure out where the loot was, it was trying to figure out how to get to it when the time came. The Brazilians had a lot to gain with their share of the recovery (Rio was essentially bankrupt) and hired an ace engineer to crack the safe. The takeaway is that the vault's location was long known by the Jesuits' "parent" Portuguese.

2. I guess that sort of hearsay helps promote the legends in general. "Jesuit sightings" ... OK.

3. More "supposedly's"

I agree that if the caches existed, the Jesuits would have recovered them long ago. They wouldn't have lost them, IMO.

 

[somehiker]

"Your photos seem to always be not quite detailed enough to see enough."
I guess that depends on what you want to see, but these last few years they have all be taken with basic digital "pocket" cameras. Though 12 and 16 mp, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference and I often have set them to a lower resolution for convenience reasons....more shots per sd card and less wait time between each cycle. Sometimes I remember to reset to the highest setting, and other times I don't. The higher temps and the resulting diffraction (heat waves) on the majority of days I'm out there seems to sometimes lower the quality as well.
If I want a better shot, I'll usually go back another time. I'm not doing a coffee table picture book, so that's just the way it is, but if you would like a closeup of any particular spot on any of the photos I've posted, circle it or put it in a square and I'll see what I can do next time I'm on site.

 

[somehiker]

The Aztec codices are quite intriguing. However, most of what survived the ages were created post-Conquest with the "help" of the Spanish clergy. Why is this? Because the Spanish clergy destroyed the large collection of authentic pre-Conquest codices as, when you get right down to it, works of the devil. For that reason, it's reasonable to assume that most of what we see was edited for content - Duran is a good example - and, well, edited content is what it is. Source material is what we want. Unfortunately, as with Aztec codices, there is very little source material available from most ancient world cultures (save carved rock). Bottom line: much of accepted world history has been edited. Anatoly Fomenko notwithstanding, it leaves us with a bushel of potential half-truths. The problems come if we happen to get our hands on the wrong half.

From what I've read and heard, Duran's work is considered a good reference and frequently cited by academics involved in Aztec research. Sahagun's as well. They have their own reasons I guess. When they speak of the influence these and other clergy had on the post-conquest production of these and other codices, I don't believe they mean to say that the Christian Fathers directed the hand of the artist who created that which I used in my post as comparison with what is on the canyon wall.
Modern science and those who apply it's newest techniques to their disciplines will continue to edit the history of these lost civilizations as old collections are re-evaluated and newer discoveries are made by current/future academics. That's the way it's supposed to work.
Sometimes two half's cancel each other out, but other times they add up to one. Maybe that's what will happen here....we'll see.