Cave of gold bars

[Backwoodsbob]

I agree with Mike on the knowledge being lost. They did leave stone maps at the location of their stashes. That long March to the coast was in more than one place. There is a strong Jesuit present east of the Mississippi. They knew what was up. They had been expelled twice before. We know they were into all levels of society or ties loyal to them. There is a lot more to their clues than those huge monuments. The whole country is littered with it. I've seen their clues in works of art. It's right in your face but yet unseen. These guys were masters of the consealment. I have a collection of their work. Most is from land I own. I study their work daily. I have shared some with negative reviews. That because most really don't know they work. Well that is as it was done on the eastern half of the country. It's all the same code. Just on a different scale. I need to say I have learned a great deal from you guys and especially the old timers. Mike you once told me that they didn't use small stones. I can prove that theory wrong. But that's not what I'm here to do. I'm not the type who likes to dig in archives. My digging is in the field. My theory on them finding their old stashes is . They lost the technic of the stone. What you guys are use to seeing is only a part of their work. They worked the stones in a way it not easily seen. You don't see the kind of work they did in any modern stone workings. The way they morphed shapes and faces that change with light and angles. Outside the circle of this type of treasure hunting it's all peradolia. That's were most fall short in understanding their work. It's taken me years of learn how it works. It's not something that can be learned from books either. The tablet with the witch. Most of the carvings are clean. The hat has little things not mentioned. Like the duck off the brim. That is one of those hidden features just from the picture. One need to use the light and angle to see if there is other hidden messages. If it's from them it will have something else on it. The method is simple but time consuming. My apologies for jumping in on your debate.

Bob

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[sdcfia]

From what I've read and heard, Duran's work is considered a good reference and frequently cited by academics involved in Aztec research. Sahagun's as well. They have their own reasons I guess. When they speak of the influence these and other clergy had on the post-conquest production of these and other codices, I don't believe they mean to say that the Christian Fathers directed the hand of the artist who created that which I used in my post as comparison with what is on the canyon wall.
Modern science and those who apply it's newest techniques to their disciplines will continue to edit the history of these lost civilizations as old collections are re-evaluated and newer discoveries are made by current/future academics. That's the way it's supposed to work.
Sometimes two half's cancel each other out, but other times they add up to one. Maybe that's what will happen here....we'll see.

Always a lotta editing going on. As Leo Tolstoy so succinctly put it, "History would be a wonderful thing, if only it were true."

 

[motel6.5]

Sdcfia, Why would the Spanish clergy re-create the Codices,which the earlier Spanish destroyed, doesn"t make common sense. My guess is if the existing Codices were carbon dated they would turn out to be the originals.
My opinions.

 

[motel6.5]

Sdcfia, Why would the Spanish clergy re-create the Codices,which the earlier Spanish destroyed, doesn"t make common sense. My guess is if the existing Codices were carbon dated they would turn out to be the originals.
My opinions.

 

[gollum]

1. As I recall the most detailed report that deducer posted re the Rio castle vault recovery, it didn't seem to be much of a secret where the vault was (beneath the castle), why it was built (keep it out of French hands in the 18th century) or what was in it (inventory detailed in document filed in Lisbon). Wasn't the recovery a negotiated recovery? The problem wasn't trying to figure out where the loot was, it was trying to figure out how to get to it when the time came. The Brazilians had a lot to gain with their share of the recovery (Rio was essentially bankrupt) and hired an ace engineer to crack the safe. The takeaway is that the vault's location was long known by the Jesuits' "parent" Portuguese.

2. I guess that sort of hearsay helps promote the legends in general. "Jesuit sightings" ... OK.

3. More "supposedly's"

I agree that if the caches existed, the Jesuits would have recovered them long ago. They wouldn't have lost them, IMO.

What at you are referring to is the second recovery. I thought there had only been one for a long time. If you read the reports of the recovery from July of 1891, the cache was discovered while the castle hill was being demolished. Since I am not within 600 miles of my research, I will describe it:

A later article is very large and contains a coded map supposedly drawn by Jesuits. That article describes in detail what was to be a second recovery of other things of wealth supposed to have been buried there (in other hidden shafts). That second recovery effort was going to be made based on information found in the lead box with the first recovery.


While you may call it hearsay, I think Jose would call it first hand information. I found the newspaper article, but Jose actually spoke with the Jesuit in the mountains. I don't know how well you know him, but I have never found him to have been dishonest about anything.

.....and the incident regarding Father Polzer trying to claim Tayopa is not hearsay either. It was a fact, and the part about his luggage being lost was verified from a Christmas Letter from Father Polzer.


Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Can you tell us the source for this story?

[3. In the 1980s, when Tayopa was supposedly found once, Father Charles Polzer SJ flew down and attempted to claim it for the Jesuit Order. He was supposedly so obnoxious about it, his baggage was "lost" while there.]

Thanks,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Sdcfia, Why would the Spanish clergy re-create the Codices,which the earlier Spanish destroyed, doesn"t make common sense. My guess is if the existing Codices were carbon dated they would turn out to be the originals.
My opinions.

They destroyed nearly all the original codices for the same reason they destroyed most of the temples and palaces in Tenotchtilan - works of the devil. If you're asking me to provide a rational explanation for this mindset, you've asked the wrong guy. No reason to carbon date the existing codices, they are acknowledged to be post-conquest, assembled by the Franciscan clergy.

 

[cactusjumper]

For those interested, here is the least expensive copy of, "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest : An Interpretive Journal Through the Mapa De Cuauhtinchan No. 2"

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo...Mapa+de+Cuauhtinchan+no.2.+&recentlyadded=all

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Not sure that I would dismiss all of the post Jesuit writings of the Mexica. Some may have come thru unscathed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

What at you are referring to is the second recovery. I thought there had only been one for a long time. If you read the reports of the recovery from July of 1891, the cache was discovered while the castle hill was being demolished. Since I am not within 600 miles of my research, I will describe it:

A later article is very large and contains a coded map supposedly drawn by Jesuits. That article describes in detail what was to be a second recovery of other things of wealth supposed to have been buried there (in other hidden shafts). That second recovery effort was going to be made based on information found in the lead box with the first recovery.


While you may call it hearsay, I think Jose would call it first hand information. I found the newspaper article, but Jose actually spoke with the Jesuit in the mountains. I don't know how well you know him, but I have never found him to have been dishonest about anything.

.....and the incident regarding Father Polzer trying to claim Tayopa is not hearsay either. It was a fact, and the part about his luggage being lost was verified from a Christmas Letter from Father Polzer.


Mike

I have no bone to pick with Don Jose. I know he has a horse in the Mexican races, and lots of time and energy invested in it. More power to him. But how do I know whom he talked to, whether or not he was a Jesuit, or what possible motives he may have had? Same with Polzer. How do I know he wasn't pulling some sort of scam trying to acquire a mineral property for the church, based on claims from some unproven rumors from 250 years ago? Is the church above something like that? How do I know? How do you know?

You have a desire to support the legends surrounding the Jesuits' mines and treasure caches in Arizona - I understand that too. However, as an objective observer (ie, one with no particular interest in the legends as they've been presented), I see lots of claims made to back up the lore that are either unverifiable or of questionable connectivity. The Jesuits were capable of secreting illegal caches in Arizona if they had mines rich enough to feed them - sure, I admit that much. I just haven't seen verifiable evidence that those purported rich mines and large caches did exist - or if they did, haven't already been recovered. You feel differently. So be it.

That said, I do believe there is likely something of great value - not of Jesuit origin and not yet defined - hidden somewhere in Central Arizona, and I feel that the possibility of the Jesuits' at least partial knowledge of it can't be ruled out.

 

[mdog]

I have no bone to pick with Don Jose. I know he has a horse in the Mexican races, and lots of time and energy invested in it. More power to him. But how do I know whom he talked to, whether or not he was a Jesuit, or what possible motives he may have had? Same with Polzer. How do I know he wasn't pulling some sort of scam trying to acquire a mineral property for the church, based on claims from some unproven rumors from 250 years ago? Is the church above something like that? How do I know? How do you know?

You have a desire to support the legends surrounding the Jesuits' mines and treasure caches in Arizona - I understand that too. However, as an objective observer (ie, one with no particular interest in the legends as they've been presented), I see lots of claims made to back up the lore that are either unverifiable or of questionable connectivity. The Jesuits were capable of secreting illegal caches in Arizona if they had mines rich enough to feed them - sure, I admit that much. I just haven't seen verifiable evidence that those purported rich mines and large caches did exist - or if they did, haven't already been recovered. You feel differently. So be it.

That said, I do believe there is likely something of great value - not of Jesuit origin and not yet defined - hidden somewhere in Central Arizona, and I feel that the possibility of the Jesuits' at least partial knowledge of it can't be ruled out.

Hi SDC. You've mentioned Central Arizona, and something of great value, in some of your previous posts. I don't remember you saying what that could be or why Central Arizona.

 

[sdcfia]

Hi SDC. You've mentioned Central Arizona, and something of great value, in some of your previous posts. I don't remember you saying what that could be or why Central Arizona.

It's not always the case, dog, but where there's smoke, there's often fire. I don't buy into the Lost Dutchman story at all, as told, and the information I've gleaned about Jacob Waltz seriously red-flags me. I'm referring to his time in MS and CA, prior to moving to AZ. Likewise with the Peralta Stone Maps' preposterous legends. Pegleg Tumlinson is my person of interest with that story. I wouldn't be surprised if the two stories aren't intertwined in some way. Interestingly, the people involved can be more revealing than the stories they tell.

Yes, I know that there are thousands of pages of evidence and testimony that "prove" these two legends are genuine major unsolved lost treasure mysteries, true as told. However, I suspect that the stories are and have been deceptive, misleading and in many ways false from the beginning in order to safeguard some sort of secret in the region. Further, I suspect the secret has existed from before the Anglo period, and perhaps earlier - maybe much earlier. Even more, I suspect that the secret, whatever it is, is controlled by persons today who are secure with its safety. I don't know what the secret is.

In addition, certain geographical anomalies (map stuff), including geometric shapes, place names, connecting lines and other things point to the AZ Salt/Gila region and link other "treasure sites" in unusual ways. My focus is in southern NM, and, thanks to a lot of the research you've done, the San Luis Valley in CO. IMO, AZ is likely connected to these other two areas in some way. And finally: common memes, even specific details in them, tend to link the AZ legends with the other sites. As you know, I don't believe in coincidences.

 

[somehiker]

Not sure that I would dismiss all of the post Jesuit writings of the Mexica. Some may have come thru unscathed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I take it you meant to say pre-conquest Joe.
So I'll just add some, if you don't mind.
Somewhere around 20 full or partial Aztec and Mixtec, plus 4 complete Mayan codices survived the various "book burnings".
Of the colonial era collections, several also had no direct input from members of the clergy, or were even reviewed by them before becoming part of the historical record. A few were first introduced to early colonial Spanish Courts as evidence for indigenous land claims, and the theory is that they were created for that purpose. Others were part of collections held by various institutions and private parties. I suspect there are others in private hands as yet to be publicized.
As far as the Jesuits are concerned, they were quite a bit more enlightened than the Franciscans when it came to the importance of saving history, warts and all.
Not that they didn't do some "disinfecting" when it suited their purpose I'm sure.

 

[mdog]

It's not always the case, dog, but where there's smoke, there's often fire. I don't buy into the Lost Dutchman story at all, as told, and the information I've gleaned about Jacob Waltz seriously red-flags me. I'm referring to his time in MS and CA, prior to moving to AZ. Likewise with the Peralta Stone Maps' preposterous legends. Pegleg Tumlinson is my person of interest with that story. I wouldn't be surprised if the two stories aren't intertwined in some way. Interestingly, the people involved can be more revealing than the stories they tell.

Yes, I know that there are thousands of pages of evidence and testimony that "prove" these two legends are genuine major unsolved lost treasure mysteries, true as told. However, I suspect that the stories are and have been deceptive, misleading and in many ways false from the beginning in order to safeguard some sort of secret in the region. Further, I suspect the secret has existed from before the Anglo period, and perhaps earlier - maybe much earlier. Even more, I suspect that the secret, whatever it is, is controlled by persons today who are secure with its safety. I don't know what the secret is.

In addition, certain geographical anomalies (map stuff), including geometric shapes, place names, connecting lines and other things point to the AZ Salt/Gila region and link other "treasure sites" in unusual ways. My focus is in southern NM, and, thanks to a lot of the research you've done, the San Luis Valley in CO. IMO, AZ is likely connected to these other two areas in some way. And finally: common memes, even specific details in them, tend to link the AZ legends with the other sites. As you know, I don't believe in coincidences.

That was an excellent post, SDC, but not too many people will understand your last paragraph. That's unfortunate because the mapping is an excellent resource, as is New Mexico Confidential.

I don't know anything about the legend but I like to stop here for the history you folks share.

I've done a little reading about the ancient cultures of Arizona. Very interesting.

 

[Oroblanco]

That was an excellent post, SDC, but not too many people will understand your last paragraph. That's unfortunate because the mapping is an excellent resource, as is New Mexico Confidential.

I don't know anything about the legend but I like to stop here for the history you folks share. One of our tnet posters, I think it was Old Bookaroo, posted that the Lost Dutchman legend was first reported in the San Francisco Examiner. The first thing that crossed my mind was Josiah M. Ward, of Treasure Mountain fame. I don't know who wrote the Examiner story, but it would be interesting to know.

I've done a little reading about the ancient cultures of Arizona. Very interesting.

The author of the first two articles on the Lost Dutchman was Pierpont C. Bicknell.
His first article appeared in 1894, the second and more famous article appeared the following year. Both articles are posted in one of these threads, older posts.

Please do continue;
Oroblanco

PS for those inclined to think of the Jesuit mining activities in Arizona as minimal at most, just ONE of the mines they were operating had produced a quarter million tons of ore that has vanished. Even if they were only able to extract a single ounce of silver per ton, and we know that the ore of the Santa Rita mine was far richer, this would still amount to some 250,000 ounces of silver. I don't know anyone that would sneer at that much silver, and this is but a single example of a number of such mines. <Such as, the Vekol, Salero, Wandering Jew, Montezuma among others>

 

[cactusjumper]

I take it you meant to say pre-conquest Joe.
So I'll just add some, if you don't mind.
Somewhere around 20 full or partial Aztec and Mixtec, plus 4 complete Mayan codices survived the various "book burnings".
Of the colonial era collections, several also had no direct input from members of the clergy, or were even reviewed by them before becoming part of the historical record. A few were first introduced to early colonial Spanish Courts as evidence for indigenous land claims, and the theory is that they were created for that purpose. Others were part of collections held by various institutions and private parties. I suspect there are others in private hands as yet to be publicized.
As far as the Jesuits are concerned, they were quite a bit more enlightened than the Franciscans when it came to the importance of saving history, warts and all.
Not that they didn't do some "disinfecting" when it suited their purpose I'm sure.

Hi Wayne,

Actually, I thought I was saying exactly what you wrote. Thoughts get a little jumbled these days.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

The Jesuits were relative late-comers to Mexico, with the first fifteen arriving at Veracruz in 1572.
So they missed most of the bonfires anyway.

 

[mdog]

The author of the first two articles on the Lost Dutchman was Pierpont C. Bicknell.
His first article appeared in 1894, the second and more famous article appeared the following year. Both articles are posted in one of these threads, older posts.

Please do continue;
Oroblanco

PS for those inclined to think of the Jesuit mining activities in Arizona as minimal at most, just ONE of the mines they were operating had produced a quarter million tons of ore that has vanished. Even if they were only able to extract a single ounce of silver per ton, and we know that the ore of the Santa Rita mine was far richer, this would still amount to some 250,000 ounces of silver. I don't know anyone that would sneer at that much silver, and this is but a single example of a number of such mines. <Such as, the Vekol, Salero, Wandering Jew, Montezuma among others>

Thanks Oro. It seems Bicknell wrote for the Chronicle and not the Examiner as I posted.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

ola, Oro redirected me to here..Tayopa was found in the 50s, I still own it.( no money to develop it, sigh) Father polzer and I were in contact when he died in his sleep at the jesuit hospital in Santa Barbara. Calif.

The two young Jesuits that I talked to near Chinapas, Chih, were not conifrmed yet, but as part of their training were looking for a closed Jesuit Gold mine. They never found it.

the reason that the Jesuits couldn't relocate Tayopa after a few years is that it it's entrance is at the bottom of a barranca, horizontal. After they closed up the entrance it wa subjected to a no of years of hurricanes entering Sonora and finally ending up in Chihuahua where they dumped torrential rains in the Tayopa zone.. A land slide completely buried the horizontal entrance with tons of overburden. The Jesuits knew where it should be --but.

The Caballo mts in New Mexico was their holding point for transshipment to Rome via the Rio del Norte. As far as I know they are still intact. They were forced to abandon them with the onset of the American civil war. They had flatly stated officially that they had done no mining in Mexico.

The following map of the trails leading to the Caballo is through the kindness of our fellow member NP

The nap si correct, I know because of certain documentation that I have not made public.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Gully, I thank you for those words, I early found that the truth is easier to remember.