Claim Jumpers are everywhere Overfiling claims

[dredgeman]

A good guy has had two claims in Mojave forever. He works them every year.

Someone filed over his claims and immediately sold the claims to a Club. The club went out and worked their new claim and got really good gold.

Now the good guy has to give up or go to court with the club, that thinks they are on the up and up

Every claim owner should be aware that BLM does not screen overfiling of claims and it can happen to almost any claim.

Someone is actively overfiling and selling existing claims.

 

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[johnnysau]

Hey Mxer47, as long as its not Patented land all they own are the mineral rights, nothing else. Cant keep ya off the land, though some probably push the issue-wrong.

johnnysau

 

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[Rawhide]

all claim jumpers should be giving a long dirt nap!

Shoot first and dont ask any questions, tell em your defending your claim. Shoot em twice to make sure he is dead, cut his heart out and eat it. Make a video and post it on here. Or you could offer a cup of coffee, ask his help on moving some dirt, and seeing who has legal right between the two of you like men. If the paperwork is right like explained above, should be the guy with oldest paperwork. My understanding is a guy can only work a claim 14 days anyway........someone please correct me lol.

 

[Clay Diggins]

No limits on working time on claims. Claims can be, and are, worked year round. All depends on the weather and your stamina.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I know we can't fence the claim and can't add any structures to the claim, so how can we constantly maintain our claims to make sure no jumpers? Hell, I think it's nationwide that we aren't supposed to camp for more than 2 weeks on blm land.

Miners can camp without time restriction if they are actively mining. See US v Lex and USFS v McClure (pdf)

You can fence and mark active diggings to protect and warn the public. You can not fence your claim. The public generally has a right to use the surface of a claim. Only the minerals belong to the claim owner.

Then if we are going to buy a claim, if we go to the blm and verify. How do we know that they aren't filing over an existing claim.
I'm sure that the people buying a claim had to go to the office to file anyway, right? Or is that all done through the mail?

Claims are made on the ground and Recorded at the County Recorder's office in the County in which the claim is located. The BLM filing is just an informational notice required since 1980. The BLM can not verify a claim, they only have land case status files. Look to the official certifiable records at the County Recorder for proof of where a claim is located and whether an existing claim is valid.

Both the County Recording and the BLM filing have to be made within 90 days (at most) for a claim location to be valid. Neither the BLM nor the County sell claims. Both have fees associated with making a public record (in the case of the County) and submitting an informational notice (in the case of the BLM).

Recording a new claim or recording an affidavit of labor may have different time limits depending on the State where the claim is located. Federal filing time limits for the BLM are the same in all the public land States.

BLM filings can be made by mail. Only the main state BLM office can file your claim information.

Some Counties allow recording by mail. In either case if you file or record by mail use certified delivery and observe the time limits.

I know I check the LR2000 regularly in areas I want to prospect on.
I don't know how reliable it is though. I've been trying to find out about a claim, and everytime I try to find it on active or closed (used claim name and also used the T,R, and S), the name never comes up. So I'm assuming it was abandoned. Is there another way to verify this claim? Should I just contact the claim owner on the post to verify?

The LR2000 is neither reliable, accurate or timely. It became much less timely and accurate in the last year. The LR2000 is only a preliminary check when looking for claim status and location. The County Recorder is the public record and the stakes on the ground define the exact location should there be a discrepancy between the public record and the stake location.

When searching for the BLM case status on the LR2000 all claim and claimant names must be in all capital letters or you will get no results.

 

[GarretDiggingAz]

Wow!!! A Luddite. I had no idea of what it meant. So for those who didn't look it up here is what it means.

In modern usage, "Luddite" is a term describing those opposed to, or slow to adopt or incorporate into their lifestyle, industrialisation, automation, computerisation or new technologies in general.[17]

Actually was an interesting read. Aren't we all leddites to some extreme.
Now I got to use a new word. Lol

 

[SLNugget]

Miners can camp without time restriction if they are actively mining. See US v Lex and USFS v McClure (pdf)



The LR2000 is neither reliable, accurate or timely. It became much less timely and accurate in the last year. The LR2000 is only a preliminary check when looking for claim status and location. The County Recorder is the public record and the stakes on the ground define the exact location should there be a discrepancy between the public record and the stake location.

When searching for the BLM case status on the LR2000 all claim and claimant names must be in all capital letters or you will get no results.

Even when the stakes are 1/4 mile off and on another claim?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Even when the stakes are 1/4 mile off and on another claim?

Aw come on Stan. Don't put me in the position of explaining how a known claims scammer thinks. I just can't understand the thought process behind all that. I've seen him claim three deep over himself up there. It shows how important the discovery part of the mineral grant is. The great leveler.

Just be glad you haven't shown up on your own claim to discover the new "owners" are planning where to put their kitchen in the new house their building on the claim they bought! It's happened up there.

Your neighbor put up no trespassing signs and blocked the access as best she could when she bought her claim from him! Think she was mislead? Some things do work themselves out over time.

Maybe that's what he's counting on?

 

[SLNugget]

I know who you are talking about of course. But the claim in question is filed by someone else and no it's not the other claims scammer out there. I get the feeling it's just an error in location, but it may be part of a larger scam. Or, oh my god is it possible, I made a mistake locating the claims on Base Camp. I have a portion of an old topo of that area that shows a lot of mining/prospect activity in the spot I am questioning. I will show it to you when we get together sometime or I can scan it and send it to you if you have any interest. I know this is a busy time of the year for you with updates and everything else you are into.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I just looked that over Stan and you are right. Her location map shows one thing, her legal description shows another and her stakes are elsewhere. Notice how her legal description is for 40 acres but her dimensions are for 20 acres. If her legal description were followed she would be right over your royal neighbor. Welcome to my world!

Tell your partner he can share his map program. His software license allows him to share with you. We try to be realistic about this stuff. Not Microsoft or Google just some friendly prospectors. We'll be updating claim status for that area in a week or so.

 

[mxer47]

By the way the Nevada dept. of wildlife is telling hunters to knock down markers made out of tubing because it traps and kills small birds. I'm Just the messenger, it doesn't mean I agree with it.

 

[GarretDiggingAz]

Miners can camp without time restriction if they are actively mining. See US v Lex and USFS v McClure (pdf) You can fence and mark active diggings to protect and warn the public. You can not fence your claim. The public generally has a right to use the surface of a claim. Only the minerals belong to the claim owner. Claims are made on the ground and Recorded at the County Recorder's office in the County in which the claim is located. The BLM filing is just an informational notice required since 1980. The BLM can not verify a claim, they only have land case status files. Look to the official certifiable records at the County Recorder for proof of where a claim is located and whether an existing claim is valid. Both the County Recording and the BLM filing have to be made within 90 days (at most) for a claim location to be valid. Neither the BLM nor the County sell claims. Both have fees associated with making a public record (in the case of the County) and submitting an informational notice (in the case of the BLM). Recording a new claim or recording an affidavit of labor may have different time limits depending on the State where the claim is located. Federal filing time limits for the BLM are the same in all the public land States. BLM filings can be made by mail. Only the main state BLM office can file your claim information. Some Counties allow recording by mail. In either case if you file or record by mail use certified delivery and observe the time limits. The LR2000 is neither reliable, accurate or timely. It became much less timely and accurate in the last year. The LR2000 is only a preliminary check when looking for claim status and location. The County Recorder is the public record and the stakes on the ground define the exact location should there be a discrepancy between the public record and the stake location. When searching for the BLM case status on the LR2000 all claim and claimant names must be in all capital letters or you will get no results.

Clay
Thanks for input. The cases were informative.

Clay
Thanks for giving the information. The case information was quite informative. I often thought it was rediculous to say that we could only camp for two weeks in a national forest. Figure they'd have to kick out retired vacationers to another forest. I think they shouldn't be able to do that.

A question I've got is, if it's not an established claim, does this still have relevance? I think, that if you're prospecting/detecting an area, could we be considered mining it. So if we camp for more than 14 days. Would we be harassed? Like it seems many have been in the past. Or does the government consider mining, the actual moving of earth with earth moving tools?

 

[GarretDiggingAz]

By the way the Nevada dept. of wildlife is telling hunters to knock down markers made out of tubing because it traps and kills small birds. I'm Just the messenger, it doesn't mean I agree with it.

Is that a federal offense?
I thought that once those markers are placed, they can't be touched.
Maybe the state should specify that if hollow posts/tubing is used, that it should be capped.

 

[Clay Diggins]

It's been illegal in Nevada to have plastic tubing for claim markers since November of 2011. All claims had to switch over to solid posts or metal capped pipes before that date.

Since any active claim in Nevada no longer has plastic tube markers I don't see why this is a problem for miners?

 

[GarretDiggingAz]

So if you stumble across the PVC tubes, does that mean the claim is abandoned?
Could possibly be a good indicator of that.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay
Thanks for input. The cases were informative.

Clay
Thanks for giving the information. The case information was quite informative. I often thought it was rediculous to say that we could only camp for two weeks in a national forest. Figure they'd have to kick out retired vacationers to another forest. I think they shouldn't be able to do that.

A question I've got is, if it's not an established claim, does this still have relevance? I think, that if you're prospecting/detecting an area, could we be considered mining it. So if we camp for more than 14 days. Would we be harassed? Like it seems many have been in the past. Or does the government consider mining, the actual moving of earth with earth moving tools?

I'm thinking mining always involves the movement of at least some mineral material in an effort to extract or define a valuable mineral deposit. Just having a sluice or metal detector in the middle of the desert probably isn't going to get you anywhere with a ranger or a judge. It's also a good idea to keep a clean camp that obviously can be moved when needed. Wheels are pretty much mandatory for wheeled vehicles and trying to make money from anything but mining a valuable mineral deposit is going to put you in another category entirely. The Mining Acts obviously intend miners to find and extract valuable minerals. If you have a claim just so you can camp for extended times you are going to meet with the harsh reality of the 1955 multiple use act.

If you are just vacationing, recreating, camping or possibly even just prospecting the 14 day rule is still going to apply. I don't know of any Forest or BLM land that has a 14 day stay rule that applies to the whole region. Usually the camping rule is 14 days in one month within a 1/4 mile. Longer times apply to some management areas like the Quartzsite LTVA.

Caution is advised but if you know your rights and walk the walk that takes you to court instead of a beating and arrest by a poorly trained LEO the court will side with you. Waggoner, Lex and McClure were brave men who knew better than to escalate their encounters and kept their actions limited to a simple refusal to obey an illegal order. Wise men who paved the way for future encounters between surface management agents and miners. Please observe that they kept it simple and weren't distracted by lawyers arguments and attempts to derail their focus from the single issue at hand. The little guy can win.

That's not to say a big headed under trained jerk with with an inferiority complex and an iron on badge isn't going to take his disappointing future prospects out on you. Forest rangers are particularly noted for making up "laws" on the spot and getting aggressive when their imaginary power is challenged by someone with a little knowledge.

 

[Clay Diggins]

So if you stumble across the PVC tubes, does that mean the claim is abandoned?
Could possibly be a good indicator of that.

There is nothing in the law that says downed markers make a claim abandoned Garret. Assumptions can get you in real trouble when it comes to land status.

Cattle Deer and Elk regularly use claim posts for scratching. In the southwest packrats undermine them. Some posts are lost to vandals or greenies having a day out. Kids like to play Star Wars or Magic Wand games. Lots of reasons markers are laying on the ground or out of place.

Every year many hunters and fishermen are charged with trespass because they believed that downed "NO TRESPASSING" signs meant they could enter private property. Some are even caught in the act of removing those signs. Please don't bring that sort of behavior to mining. It's tough enough for real miners to make a decent living without having to prosecute every yahoo who thinks they can ignore the law because they didn't see a sign.

Do you walk down the street and assume every open garage door means it's alright to take whatever suits your fancy? I know you don't Garret. No decent man would. There is a long established process to determine what land is available for prospecting. It's public information available to everyone. Simply because a house looks unlived in or a claim is not clearly marked doesn't mean it's abandoned.

I know you are considering a claim for yourself. I know you wouldn't want some other prospector deciding your stakes weren't good enough to keep him from higrading your claim. Let's agree anything but a complete land status search just isn't enough to give you the right to prospect or claim an area. It's the law and that sort of "due diligence" would be your only defense in a mineral theft prosecution. I know you would want it that way for your house or your claim.

 

[GarretDiggingAz]

Yeah I believe that happened to a fellow miner on turkey creek down here. It was an interesting read for me, but for the miner, it was quite unfortunate. Constant harassment if I remember correctly.
Not that I'm out there for that long, but if I wanted to stay for longer than 14 days, I better make sure my claim is filed.

I thought I saw it was for the year, but it's probably the month.
Thx for that clarification.

There's so much to learn between mining filing claims and regs. Learning quickly. It's great to get help though. I truly wouldn't want to be on that receiving end.
The thing is to verify what's been said to what's in print. So I always appreciate when Clay or others give reference to others who paved the way.

 

[Hoser John]

Lex /Waggoner decision was overturned because of actions taken on the klamath by the cancer. Placed a miner in direct sight of FS station to rub salt in wound-back to court and LOST it all as usual. SUMMAbs-John

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Mrs. OB:

Great post! I think there is some confusion here about the role of the BLM - while it doesn't issue mining licenses, if I understand the law correctly there are situations where it issues permits. Perhaps that has to do with the scale of operations?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Clay Diggins]

Lex /Waggoner decision was overturned because of actions taken on the klamath by the cancer. Placed a miner in direct sight of FS station to rub salt in wound-back to court and LOST it all as usual. SUMMAbs-John

I've seen you post that opinion elsewhere John but I've never seen that decision or any decision that overturns Lex. I know here in the southwest the courts are still ruling in line with Lex. I'm thinking if any higher court had a different opinion the Federal prosecutors would be parading it around like a new dress.

You might want to read the Lex decision or the McClure decision again. The court in both cases made it clear that Congress made those mining laws that allow miners to stay on their claims as long as they are mining. Lots of cases since then ruling the same. If you know of a higher court ruling it would be good of you to share it.

I hate that mess that's coming from the Klamath as much as you but they didn't kill Kennedy, start the war in Iraq, sink the Titanic or change Federal law. I gonna have to see at least an appeals court ruling before I'll buy Lex being overturned.